So, last time I talked about the dreaded Friend Zone, we established that The Friend Zone was, well… basically you being judged as “unfuckable.” Sometimes it’s a legitimate lack of attraction, sometimes it’s like the Onion article “But If We Started Dating, It Would Ruin Our Friendship.”
But hey, my telling you that the Friend Zone doesn’t really exist makes for good discussion but it doesn’t help those of you who feel like you’re getting stuck in it anyway. It may be a fictional construct, but you’re still getting the dreaded “Let’s Just Be (Platonic) Friends” speech. And let’s face it, there’s no quicker way to make a man’s ego shrivel like a slug doused in salt than the LJBF speech.
So why not avoid the Friend Zone in the first place?
How?
Well, as a wise man once said: “Best block, no be there.”
So, what does it take to avoid the Friend Zone? Assuming you don’t have Bradley Cooper’s hair, Brad Pitt’s grin, Paul Newman’s piercing blue eyes and Ryan Reynold’s six-pack abs, you’re going to have to be willing to take some risks. Part of what got you into the Friend Zone’s event horizon is that you were most likely playing it safe. You were unwilling to make the decisions that were required, ones that meant risking rejection. You were passive for too long and now you’re going to have to work harder and risk more.
Sorry.
We’ll begin by assuming that there actually is a certain level of mutual attraction here in the first place. She’s comfortable in your presence. She touches you when she’s talking to you; maybe on the arm or the shoulder, when she’s making a point. She’ll seek out alone time with you, rather than insisting on hanging out in a group. When you talk on the phone, she’s not always distracted or doing other things as you chat.
If you’re not getting any of these? Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you’re kinda screwed, Sonny-Jim. But hey, we’re being optimistic here! There are some indications of interest! So what’s a guy to do?
Well, to start with, you’re going to have to start establishing that, no, this is most emphatically not a friend thing. If you haven’t been making it clear that you’re interested in getting into her pants, you’re not helping your own case. You need to start being comfortable with the idea of being sexual and of physical escalation. I’m willing to bet that, if we were to take a show of hands over who’s comfortable touching the girl they have a crush on, there’d be damned few hands up. And if I were going to ask those who did raise their hands if that touching was anything more than the occasional A-line hug (leaning in at the shoulders, pelvises kept firmly at a distance), even more hands would drop.
Touch is actually incredibly important to humans; it’s a form of communication, intimacy, comfort, social status… not being comfortable touching means you’re functionally cutting yourself off from other people and giving up an incredible tool towards building the attraction you want. So you need to be willing and able to touch your crush in the first place and, importantly, have her be comfortable with your touch. If she’s not comfortable with your hand on her back or your arm around her shoulders, she’s definitely not going to be comfortable with you trying to kiss her or going for second base.
So you need to be willing to touch her, casually but with meaning. Be willing to pull her in for a one-armed hug when she makes a joke about you and her, then push her away playfully like you’re annoyed with her. Touch her arm while making a point while talking. Place a hand on the lower back when escorting her into building. Have the guts to put an arm around her when you’re sitting together watching Netflix on the couch. Just be aware of her comfort level and pull back when you feel her tensing up and becoming uncomfortable.
And yes, you’re going to need to be willing to kiss her.
You’re also going to have to be willing to flirt and mean it. There’s nothing sadder than a guy who makes a joke about wanting to make out with the girl he’s trying to hook up with, then nervously laughing and trying to take it back when he gets called on it. You want her. You want her to know that you do, so you need to own it. There’s nothing wrong with wanting more from her and you shouldn’t feel ashamed of it. Which takes us to the next part.
This may actually be harder for some of you than making the first move. You’re going to have to be willing to control the context of your relationship.
Think of it this way: when you’re talking to your crush, how is she treating you? How does she refer to you? Does she laugh off your attempts at talking about how you feel about her? Does she refer to you, unprompted, as her best friend? As “such a great guy, why can’t I meet a guy like you?” She’s framing the relationship; by going along with it, you are tacitly ceding the argument that, yes, you’re friends and nothing but. It’s your job to change the context. You need to be willing to give her a silly nickname like “brat” or “Princess” and refer to her that way. You need to be willing to banter. You need to tease her and tell her “Geez, you’re trouble. You’re feisty,” when you tease each other, as though she is the one who’s hitting on you. You need to be willing to say – in a charming, playful way – “You realize I’m just trying to get into your pants, right?” If she laughs and continues to hang out with you, you’ve just re-framed the situation; by continuing to hang out with you, she’s given you passive permission to keep trying.
This applies to all of the behavior you’re probably already too familiar with; it’s an opportunity to reframe the situation. If she’s coming to you in order to complain about the latest jerk who treated her like crap, you need to be willing to tell her “Hey, listen, I love you dearly and I know you think I’m your bestest girlfriend eveeerrrrr, but before you get to the point where you’re pulling out the Haägen-Daz and we’re doing each other’s hair, you need to know I’m only pretending to listen because I can kinda see down your top.” If she tells you, straight up, that she only wants to be friends, hey, Great! “Awesome! I think you’re a cool person too. But you gotta know I’m still attracted to you, and I’m still going to try to hook up with you.” And again: not ending things right then and there is passive permission for you to keep trying.
Lastly: you need to be willing to walk away.
Nobody gets every girl, and just because you do everything I recommend – and do it well – you’re not magically going to succeed every time.
Remember what I said about passive permission? That applies to you too. If a girl gives you the LJBF speech and treats you like her favorite female BFF, you can stay there, playing “Against All Odds” over and over again and hoping for the day that things change. But while you’re doing that, you’re tacitly accepting that, yes, you’re just her friend. And at that point, you have two options. You can sit there and twist the knife a little more each day.
Or you can reject her frame and leave.
Be willing to walk away, cut your losses and try again. It’ll hurt, but the clean break heals fastest and you’ll be in a better position when the next girl comes along.
And besides… when she sees you out there, having fun with other girls, girls who are clearly into you…
Well, that might be what does the trick.
Could've used this about a week ago but thanks anyway…
Damn! I'm just shy the abs! *goes back to crunches*
As always, "Quoted for MuF**kin' Truth"! I'm serious when I say that after you bang out a hundred or so of these posts, you should really publish them as a collection and every single geek should be handed it as they enter dating age.
My problem is not that girls aren't interested in me, it's more that I'm not interested in them. It's not like I don't like girls, I feel like its more lust rather than love and I take a step back.
Whats wrong with me ?
[WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The poster sent us '0 which is not a hashcash value.
I have a few more things to say about the Friend Zone, Daredevil, so keep checking back.
Good Stuff!!!!!!
There is much wisdom here, framed in a package of genuine need to help people with just the right amount of snark to make me chuckle. Thank you, dude, for taking up the task.
If only you had told me this months ago.
Goddamn it.
Anyway, great article.
From a girl: You know, I was really starting to see you as a sweet guy and more than a friend until you started calling me "brat" and "Princess" and snark to the point of “Hey, listen, I love you dearly and I know you think I’m your bestest girlfriend eveeerrrrr, but before you get to the point where you’re pulling out the Haägen-Daz and we’re doing each other’s hair, you need to know I’m only pretending to listen because I can kinda see down your top." I laughed when you said “You realize I’m just trying to get into your pants, right?” but I was feeling very vulnerable when I told you about that guy so now I'm going to have to reevaluate our relationship.
Great overall message but guys, don't alienate your prospective partner with too much snark and sarcasm unless not being put off by verbal abuse is one of your requirements. You're not auditioning for a low-level rom com/a generic action film with some dialogue input from the writer of low-level rom coms.
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Dr. Nerdlove strikes again! You hit every nail on the head.
"Harmless" flirting is the best way to open the situation up more. Bust her chops and get her to laugh at herself too. If you can make a girl feel comfortable enough to laugh at herself you've already removed the first layer of armor.
A little teasing, playful banter will further solidify a friendship into a more-than-friends-ship. If you're of legal drinking age, go out to a bar with her, buy her a drink or two and just hang out. Alcohol lubricates the cogwork of having a conversation where you can begin to use better words. Try to add some double entendres, subtle and obvious.
Just don't go all The Pun-isher on her and tell her about your LolCatz poster above your bed.
Anadyr, out!
Agreeing with Cat. Some of these tactics would UTTERLY DEMOLISH any sexual interest I had in the guy in question. And probably any positive opinion I had about him in general. He won't have to walk away. Treating me like a sexual object when I'm emotionally vulnerable won't just make me "have to go to bed, sorry," and start ignoring your calls. It will make you need to "stay the fuck away from me."
If the guy really has no interest in the woman outside of sex, he should proposition her while they are still effectively strangers, before she gets the idea that his behavior indicates anything but an ulterior motive. If the guy only wants a dating-type relationship, he should nut up and ask her out right away instead of hanging around with her under false pretenses in hopes of continuing this elaborate mating dance. Some people prefer relationships that form naturally out of friendships, and some people prefer everything to be defined right off the bat. If you're the kind of guy who wants to define a specific social attachment as strictly sexual or romantic right away, just do that — don't let the relationship get to the point where you need to "re-frame" it to begin with.
"“Awesome! I think you’re a cool person too. But you gotta know I’m still attracted to you, and I’m still going to try to hook up with you.” And again: not ending things right then and there is passive permission for you to keep trying."
Oooh, ixnay. Gotta agree with Cat and Wolf – if we get to the point of friendship where I think we're good friends but need to clarify we're JUST good friends, and you respond with the "still going to try to hook up with you" – that tells me several things:
1) you don't respect my feelings or what I have to say (you're trying to force the issue)
2) you've been faking being a friend to try to get in my pants
Like Wolf said, if there's no interest aside from sex, make it clear from the getgo. Otherwise you're contributing to creating women who don't trust guys who do just want friendship, because hey, they heard that before but then the guy morphed into a giant asshole when he was clearly turned down.
The advice of "still going to try to hook up with you" is stepping broadly into the movie trope territory that you tear apart in another post, Dr NerdLove!
Whoa man. This is pretty contradictory to other stuff you've posted!
What happened to respecting her boundaries and "if after being turned down, you're staying on as a "friend" with designs for more, watching and waiting for opportunities to hook up, you AREN'T being a friend"?
It shouldn't be down to her to cut off the dude's friendship (because if she doesn't apparently she's giving passive permission?), he should be mature enough to recognize that he's not getting over it and he needs to step back and take some distance. Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding you, there.
Sorry Doctor, but the others are right that this seriously breaks down near the end. If a guy who I thought was my friend, a good enough friend to go to in times of emotional distress, started belittling my problems by making jokes about ice cream and hair-braiding, then told me he's only listening because he would like access to my genitals?
He's certainly out of the friend-zone, because I'll probably never speak to him again.
By introducing the idea of listening to emotional problems under an ulterior motive, he has called into question all of our previous interaction. I'm going to at least worry, if not just assume, that he's been doing this all along. It seems he's not my friend after all, he's a liar and he's a creep, and he's been manipulating me. I feel betrayed and hurt, and Rozca's right – I'll remember him every time a guy seems to want to be my friend from now on.
If you're not happy with just friendship, just grow a spine and ask her out. She says no, you stop, and if you don't actually want to be friends, you leave. You don't make jokey comments about how you'll still try to hook up with her, as LARPer said; what happened to respecting her boundaries? All this 'passive permission' nonsense is just you reading the best possible meaning into a lack of reaction, which could mean anything. You're usually so into boundaries and not hanging around with ulterior motives! And for someone who is usually so aware of how women are socially conditioned to let you down easy, I'd expect you to know that by interpreting inaction as consent and responding to 'Let's just be friends' with 'I'm still going to try to hook up with you' (i.e. proving you will not accept a tacit refusal) you're trapping her in a situation where there's NO way to let you down easy. She can either follow her conditioning and do nothing, which you will interpret as agreeing to the framing even though she's SAID in WORDS that she refuses this framing, or she can violate half the social codes she's ever been taught and take the 'nuclear option' on YOU, looking like a huge bitch in the process, but at least ensuring you get the message.
Poor show, Doctor. Poor show.
I'm jumping in and agreeing with the other girls. ” Passive permission” what is this a nature show? Okay, there is a chance that's the case but not a big one, in fact I'd say really fracking small chance, most it's brushed off and ignored in interests of being polite, or even that it didn't register on the radar because she isn't thinking the same way. Also especially in the USA and similar countries women are encouraged to be tactile, doesn't necessarily mean sexual interest, women touch other female friends all the time.Trust me as a bi girl I find myself waiting for a touchy girl to establish a more seualized intent behind the touch before even contemplating if she means anything by it, it's not easy and I sympathize, but FOD don't assume. Ask, accept the answer decide if you want friendship, and if your ego can take a ”I like you but I don't wanna fuck you” response in whatever terms she uses, without acting like a wounded jerk and lashing out, it wasn't easy for her being put on the spot, don't mistake trying to spare feelings for continued interest. Be a grown up, not an opportunistic asshole who has no respect for boundaries, friendship and the person you feel you are., there's enough of them out there. Also some girls like being friends with guys, and we feel betrayed when we feel like he's only been spending time with us because of a chance at sex, there's more to life. And okay maybe if you've fallen in love it's a bitch to deal with when it's not returned but be honest, tell her I'm going to back off our friendship for a while so I'm not an asshole to you till I figure out how to be mature or whatever, not just disappear. Decide after that what she means and what you want to do, but really if you're going to be the assmonkey who goes all I wasted so much time being friends with you… Do all us girls a favor and go away.
I kinda understand where the doctor is coming from.
I think it all comes from assuming that you've been consistent with your behavior. If a person is going to say something like that, I hope he has already let it be known pretty well that he doesn't want to be "just friends". If the girl has been too dense to understand that well then I don't think it really matters what he says. He isn't looking into just a friendship and he is letting it be known. He's being honest with his intentions albeit in a rather snarky way. Honestly there are multiple ways to go about it but the person is probably just going to walk away from the whole thing if its a LJBF environment that he doesn't want to be a part of. The comment basically states that in a round about way so I have no problem with it.
If he has been dishonest with his intentions though and not let his intentions known through his actions then I agree with every one else that commented. The line has a very fine line.
MeThinks some folks took the Doctor's comments too literally….
I have heard the "well if you're ONLY interested in sex…." speech, to attempt to use guilt to maintain a LJBF situation. My response was pretty simple "If I was ONLY interested in sex, then you wouldn't be here.. and I wouldn't be talking to you right now.. I genuinely LIKE you, but if our relationship doesn't go past the sexual boundary, I'm going to have to back off and put my energy into finding someone who is interested enough in me to do that."
It comes down to setting boundaries on your time and emotional energy. How much should you be willing to invest in someone who won't go where you want them to go? Am I really happy with this particular person as a friend without sex (as I am with a number of men/women) or do I want it to go father?
Let's face it.. without sex, they are not a girlfriend/boyfriend/etc. End of story. Sex is the activity that is necessary, but not sufficient (yes math geeks.. I did say that
), to make a relationship work. If you are seeing someone as a potential partner/mate, and it doesn't become sexual, then you MUST break it off, become ordinary friends, and look elsewhere, otherwise you're hurting yourself, and the other person.
I feel personally offended that so many women here equate "wants to be more than friends" with:
Wolf said: "no interest in the woman outside of sex"
Rocza said: "no interest aside from sex"
yeah right said: "he's only been spending time with us because of a chance at sex"
and Sarah taking it literally that: "he's only listening because he would like access to my genitals". The author was quite clear that his "get in your pants" comment be said in a playful manner, and only after a positive relationship had already been established.
I want many things. I want good friends, regardless of gender (and yes, I have had several close long term purely platonic friendships with women). I want a girlfriend. I very much want to find love. And yes, I want sex…. and I'm not going to fucking apologize for that. I am a normal healthy HUMAN BEING with a normal healthy sex drive. I find it offensive when women dehumanize me with sexist bullshit that all men are "just after one thing".
Saying "yes" does not make a woman a slut. Saying "no" does not make a woman a bitch. And occasionally having an erection does not make a man an emotionless beast. Some of us have been known to experience a variety of emotions in between erections. It's rumored that some of us are even capable of experiencing a variety of emotions WHILE we have erections. Imagine that.
Several of the women here are saying that if a woman says LetsJustBeFriends, and the relationship diminishes or ends, that it means I never really cared for her. They're claiming claiming it means I just wanted to USE her to get my rocks off. I call bullshit on that. Lets say I really like a woman and invest a lot of time getting to know her, with a vague hope that some day I'll find a relationship that becomes love. And then she starts complaining "why can’t I meet a guy like you?", whinging to me how all the guys she ever dates mistreat her, and officially Friendzoning me. So I go out seeking another chance to find love. And she friendzones me too. And another and another. Pretty soon I could have SIX failed attempts to find love, each of them wanting my emotional support several times a week to whine how the guys she dates mistreat her. And the women posting here are saying that if I EVER diminish the time I spend on any one them, it makes me a soulless walking-prick who merely wanted to USE them for sex. Fuck that, ladies. There are only 24 hours in a day. There are only just so may relationships I can maintain. I have a right to a life, I have a right to seek a successful relationship, I have a right to seek love, and I even have a right to seek sex without appologizing for it. I am not OBLIGATED to spend the rest of my life emotionally catering to a woman merely because I once cared about her and I once had some vague hope that maybe – just maybe – it might work out as a successful loving relationship. If a woman wants to LetsJustBeFriends me, then she needs to accept that I may (or may not) choose to reallocate our friend-time elsewhere. She needs to accept that I can and will terminate any relationship if I ever decide it is causing me unacceptable emotional discomfort.
(continued from my previous comment)
I'd like to specifically address something Sarah said: "she's SAID in WORDS that she refuses this [romantic] framing". Yes, Sarah is absolutely right there. A woman has every to reject a romantic framing of a relationship, putting the ball in my court. Sarah then blows it by denying *MY* right to reject a FreindZone framing, and/or denying MY right to communicate MY thoughts feelings and bountries. I have every right to say that a freindzone relationship doesn't work for me. I have every right to tell her what I think and tell her how I feel and tell her what MY boundries are before I abandon a valued relationship. I can hit the ball back into her court, respectfully offering her the chance to reconsider before I go. I can politely remind her of her express desire to find a "man like me", and I can pointedly note that "a man like me" is standing in front of her already! And I can tell her that that he already cares for her. The ball is respectfully in her court, and if she wants me to go, I'll go.
Sarah objects "She can either follow her conditioning and do nothing, which you will interpret as agreeing to the framing even though she's SAID in WORDS that she refuses this framing, or she can violate half the social codes she's ever been taught and take the 'nuclear option' on YOU, looking like a huge bitch in the process, but at least ensuring you get the message." If her point is that there is a lot of sexist bullshit in our society, I certainly agree. I am rabidly pro-feminism, right up until the all-too-common point where it tries to dump everything on one side of the equation. There's a lot of conditioning and cultural bullship that men need to stop accepting, and there's a lot of conditioning and cultural bullshit that women need to stop accepting. If we want to deal with the sexist bullshit in society then there comes a point were we ALL have to stop passively accepting it. There comes a point where we all need to take responsibility for our own actions, take responsibility for our own feelings, take responsibility for communicating our wants needs and boundaries. And we all need to be respectful of each other. A woman is not a "bitch" for saying a romantic relationship won't work for her. A woman may certainly feel EMPATHY for her friend's disappointment or pain, but NOT BLAME. It is disappointing and even painful when feelings are not mutual, but some "conditioned" refusal to communicate will not prevent that disappointment or pain. Refusal to communicate is disrespectful. A disrespectful refusal to communicate will almost always inflict more the hurt feelings on both sides.