« Previous 1 2 View All Next »
One of the most frequently asked questions I get on this blog is from women: “Do you have any advice for helping the girl trying to get the nerd?”
The cliche rejoinder of “Yes: show up” is a tempting (and frankly, obvious) response, but it does a real disservice to both men and women. As much as guys like to toss around the idea that women can get a date – or laid – without effort, if it were true, every single woman’s magazine out there wouldn’t be plastered with advice on how to catch, keep and please a man.
...and also lots of HORRIBLE sex advice.
When you’re a woman who’s into geek guys (or just a little geek-curious) the difficulties grow exponentially. Take the usual difficulties in meeting a man and throw in some painfully shy guys who’re used to rejection and mockery from the opposite sex and trying to win their hearts has gone from challenging to Nintendo hard, even when you already share a mutual love of Joss Whedon and retro video games.
Fortunately, you have Dr. NerdLove to guide you. Take it from a dyed-in-the-wool geek who’s seen and done just about every variation of the nerdy meet-cute you can come up with. I’ve been the guy who desperately wanted the girls to approach him and the one who’s done the approaching. So start taking notes and hold your questions until the end; if some of the advice seems a bit contradictory to what I’ve said elsewhere, just wait. There’re reasons for it.
Why Date Geeks?
The first question many women would ask is “Why should I be interested in dating a geek?” And to be fair: this is a good question. I won’t give you any of the standard fluff answers about how geeks are more loyal and less likely to cheat because they’ll be too grateful (the stereotype of the dateless virgin is outdated… and besides, guys are guys regardless of whether they’re into fantasy football or Final Fantasy) or that they’ll treat you better than the usual Alpha Male types you’re used to (being a geek doesn’t mean you can’t also be a jerk).
So what is there to recommend to them?
Geeks have complex inner lives and imagination
Geeks spend a lot of time lost in their own heads, which allows for the development of a rich imagination and a shocking level of creativity. They’ll surprise you with their insight; they have a way of looking at things from an unexpected angle. A geek boyfriend will surprise you with his imaginative gifts and out-of-the-ordinary dates and experiences. It can take some getting used to if you’re used to the typical “flowers and chocolates” type, but it can be so much more rewarding.
Geeks cultivate their intellectual curiosity
Geeks are very cerebral creatures. They love learning and knowledge for it’s own sake; if they have an interest in a subject, they’ll dive into it with great eagerness. They’ll pick up skill sets just because it interests them. Knowing how to build a replica of Cyclops’ visor, modding a computer into Portal turret or building Hollywood-quality costumes from Mass Effect may never come in handy… but it’s damn cool on it’s own, right? Geeks take interest in a wide variety of subjects and pride themselves in being engaged in the world around them.
Geeks like smart women
Just as geeks love learning and collecting facts, they appreciate a woman who has a brain and isn’t afraid to use it. Nothing makes a geek happier than being able to have an in-depth and detailed conversation with the woman they’re attracted to. If you’ve become frustrated dealing with men who’re intimidated by the fact that you are as smart as they are – or smarter – you need to find yourself a geek boy.
Geeks have passion
Still waters run deep. Geeks feel things strongly and respond even stronger to the things they’re interested in. You will never find someone as excited about his hobbies or interests as a geek and his eagerness to share them. It’s hard to be bored with a geek.
Geeks have great senses of humor
Take a good look at the current crop of a-list and up-and-coming comedians: Patton Oswalt. Aziz Ansari. Doug Benson. Aisha Tyler. Chris Hardwick. Kevin Smith. All unabashed geeks. That intellectual curiosity and imagination I mentioned earlier? These are critical components of humor.
Geeks are kinky
Are you into BDSM? Polyamory? Toys? Geeks tend to be more sexually adventurous than most and are up for trying new things. The kink community has an almost shockingly heavy geek population. If you’re looking to get tied up and spanked, you’ll find geeks are ready, willing and incredibly able.
You’re a geek yourself
Hey, who doesn’t love shared interests? Geek guys will appreciate your love of XKCD and Avatar: The Last Airbender. They’ll understand why you need some time to grieve at the end of Mass Effect 3. Even if they’re not into your flavor of geek, they’ll at least understand it.
(Hey, geek guys: want to know what else women like about you? Check out the thread over on the Dr. NerdLove Facebook page. Ya’ll are a hot commodity to the right women.)
So how do you win over a geek guy? I’m glad you asked…
To start with…
Be Approachable
Last Monday, I mentioned (to some small controversy) that attractive women can be intimidating to guys. This is especially true to shy, socially inexperienced guys – as geek boys tend to be. You need to remember that many geeks are so used to rejection that they expect it; the dialogue in a geek guy’s head is a neverending chorus of rationalizations and worst-case scenarios. They have played through every possible outcome in their mind and every single one of them ends with laughing and pointing, occasionally with a drink thrown in their face. It’s like having the worst super-power ever.
...only with more soul-crushing.
When you couple that with the occasionally crippling approach anxiety, nerdboys are unlikely to make the first approach.
If you want them to come to you, you are going to have to make it easier on them. You have to let them know that you’ll welcome their attention.
Geek guys are frequently shy and afraid of rejection. If you’re the sort of person with a large personality, this can make them even more afraid; they’ll become convinced that being rejected by you will turn into a full production that will guarantee that everybody witnesses their humiliation. Think of them as timid little deer that you’re trying to convince to come closer so you can pet their soft fur. They’re always on alert for danger signs, so you need to reassure them that everything is ok. Strong eye contact followed by a welcoming smile and open body language will help break through that continuous maelstrom of rationalizations and convince them that yes, they should come over and introduce themselves.
Hell, you may want to give them the “come here” nod, because they’re likely to not quite understand the “eye-contact, look away, look back and smile” sign.
Speaking of which…
« Previous 1 2 View All Next »
Related posts:
Pages: 1 2
Wow, a guide to picking me up. Never thought there would be demand for that.
You'd be surprised…
Check out Dr. Nerdlove's Facebook post where he asked what are some good reasons for wanting geek guys. Among my friends (and myself), you are in high demand!
As of right now, a conservative estimate of 40 unique cases of making him high demand, and 52 in all. Whew!
You said it brother. @other respondents, definitely need some kind of system to co-ordinate this apparent demand but lack of supply for geek guys, I've been blissfully unaware of it til now…
Yeah, I wonder. How come we are so unaware of the apparent demand? I never noticed any girls who were interested in nerd guys, apart form posts on the internet. Is it really that we just don't notice? I read a lot of articles on the internet about 'how to tell if a girl likes you' and I've never seen the signs on any woman. Furthermore, the posts of girls on the internet always talk about wanting a confident nerd, who they can feel equal to. That is not particularly the subcategory I belong to, and not the subcategory this article is aimed to 'pick up'.
So true. This definitely works for getting the geek boys. Even if I have to make the move. I do get teased for being cheesy- but they don't get subtle. So, go for it ladies!
Very good advice, but something I've always been concerned about: if I (the woman) am doing the chasing, making the first move, doing the initiating… heck, having to punch my number into his phone… then how in the world do I know he likes me? How do I know I'm not just steam rolling him into a relationship?
I've dated a couple of geek boys in the past because I've done the majority of the heavy lifting, and each time it turns out they weren't very into me, they were just too passive to say no. (And enjoying the ego stroke of being chased, of course.) How do I avoid that in the future?
This is the point where I'm tempted to start quoting "It's In His Kiss", but more seriously: watch how he responds to trying to get together to do something. A guy who isn't into someone is going to have all kinds of excuses as to why he can't do something with her without offering up an alternative time or day. Even the most passive guy is going to show some excitement if being asked to do something (or hang out with someone) he's in to.
That's exactly my concern. I've almost always had to be the one to ask someone out, and even if it fixes their insecurity about you liking him, it adds insecurity on the girl about whether he's really into her. No matter how you roll it, the insecurity's going to land on *someone* until it becomes unmistakably clear. Ugh.
…and I can't tell if I've steamrolled my current boyfriend into a relationship or not. So frustrating. x__x
Yuki:
I'd say, if you're concerned that your current boyfriend is just staying in the relationship because you "steamrolled" him, or because of inertia, or because he's too passive to end it, then try this:
Distance yourself a little. Start spending more time apart, but still some time together, so that you are clear you're not avoiding him. See how he responds. You might also want to hold off on calling or texting him for a day or two, and see if he texts you, and how often. If you pull away, just a little bit, and he lets you go, then he might not be truly interested. If you pull away more, and he still doesn't respond, then he's obviously not willing to make the effort to keep the relationship going, and this probably isn't the best relationship for *either* of you to be in.
Yesno.
This might work. If he's not too insensitive to picking these things up, or interpreting them.
One way or the other, if he's starting to get irritated under this strategy, TALK.
I think it's better just to say it outright at that point. I mean yes, confrontation is rough, but if you distance yourself instead of talking, I would think it's more likely that your partner would believe you were becoming disinterested, and from there things could go downhill really fast. I agree with Igor, just sit him down and bring it up directly.
Thanks.
I'm in this bind in the first place because we hardly ever hang out in person in the first place. It would be easier if we hung out more, but he's never been over to my house, and he always finds an excuse for me not to come to his. Two completely different schools (mine is single-sex and 45 mins away from home) only able to get together on weekends, and then he has work… He's cancelled quite a few dates. It's reached the point where I haven't sent him a text in two days, and I'm thinking that all things considered, I shouldn't hang on anyway. Its just not working.
I asked him out. He said he would have asked me out a week or two later, but that was after the fact.
Actually, he officially dropped out of school two days ago, and I'm already thinking about how he's gone from an 8 in my eyes to a 3. I like someone academically motivated, and I think I've ended up with the lazy pot-smoking man-child. >.<
I'll figure it out.
Yuki:
I think you've figured this out… And, if he truly is a "lazy, pot-smoking man-child," then you're better off without him!
I had one of those once. He didn't want a partner. He wanted a mother/housekeeper.
Mind you, I'm not opposed to people smoking weed, but when it's all they ever do, it's a problem.
There is another problem here. Some of us geek guys have the unusual trait that we actually enjoy our friendships with females, even if there is no prospect for love/sex. If you pull away, he will most likely start pulling you back. But that might not be useful information for what you need.
If in doubt, ask questions. A lot of questions. If there was one skill I could go back and learn at an earlier stage of life, it would be the Socratic method. Questions don't have to be threatening (if you don't want them to be), and will allow him to frame the relationship in his own terms.
"…will allow him to frame the relationship in his own terms."
I kind of wrote that last part funny. What I mean is, it will allow him to use his own voice to explain how he feels about you. That way you know it's coming from him, not just what he thinks you want to hear.
I almost wrote this to the last entry, but in my experience, I do have a suggestion.
I knew a lot of nerds in college who were afraid to ask a girl out or pursue a girl – not because they were to passive, and not because they lacked drive (or sex drive…believe me…), but because they had been instilled with the ideas that women *didn't like* being approached.
I would suggest you try to distill out between the 2 categories of guys -
1. Guys who are to passive / threatened / whatever to ask you out – or to stand up for themselves later.
2. Guys who want to ask you to do stuff, ask you out, etc, and would do it if they knew it would be welcomed. Not met with "God! ANOTHER guy wanting to hang out with me? Just because I spent the last half hour talking to you, DOES NOT mean I want to go out with you!! Why can't I come to this stuff and not constantly be hit on??? Jesus, you're such a jerk.".
From my perspective, the best thing to do is to learn to flirt. Flirt with him (but don't flirt with everyone in his group, we all see a ton of girls who do that and they always seem to have boyfriends and just flirt for the attention).
And mention things that you'd like to do that he could invite you to – I'm not saying that you should do the inviting yourself, but often he's standing there thinking "I would really love to invite this girl out somewhere, but everything fun I can think of involves hanging out just the two of us in my room – and I just met this girl, she's probably not going to be comfortable (feel safe – I know I'm not some sort of sexual predator, but she doesn't know me yet) with me immediately wanted to hang out just the two of us, at my place).
If you've flirted with him 3 times and it hasn't gone anywhere, if he has a thing or two that he could invite you to do, and he has a way of contacting you, that's the point (imo) to move on and he's most likely not romantically interested in you. You shouldn't "unfriend" him, and it's possible that he'll change his mind later, but it's time to stop putting effort into it.
I mean, that's just my opinion/suggestion. That's what would have worked with me, or several of the nerdy friends I knew.
Oh – the other thing that was always weird was when you liked a girl, then she suddenly started acting really nervous. We were always told that if you were making a girl uncomfortable and you kept at it, you were being an asshole. We didn't really realize how often girls get nervous not because they don't like you, but exactly because they *do* like you. It still kind of weirds me out.
Maybe you should change your tagline since your site is becoming more gender nuetral. Maybe like "Helping nerds in love"
Nah, I think it's still mostly oriented toward guys.
No need to fix what isn't broken.
This is great advice. Especially the "Make the First Move" and "Be Direct". And here's a place where the "intimidating" women can shine since we don't give a rat's ass about being demure.
One story, my current boyfriend and I had been obviously flirting for awhile and having deep conversations on the couch, but in order to get our first kiss the following conversation had to happen.
Him (sounding scared): What are you thinking?
Me: I'm wondering why you haven't kissed me yet.
Him: Guess I should fix that.
Then we made out on the couch.
"like"
I've had a moment like that before. She asked me what I was thinking. I said I was thinking about kissing her but wasn't sure if I should or not. She said, "Why don't you try it and see?"
…5 minutes later, we were making out. But it took five minutes for me to get the courage. >..<
+1
more of that!
That is an awesome story!
Honestly, the solution that I've found for the "too shy to approach me" problem is to find and get involved with older geek men – mid- to late twenties, even early thirties. (This has become a lot more viable as I get older myself and it helps that I've always been mature for my age.) Basically, I've found that the older geek men get, the more growing up they've done and confidence they've acquired (not to mention social skills learned) so they'll be more likely to pick up on my signals and give off clear signals themselves. I'm frankly relieved that I'm no longer 18 and in the shy early-college stage of geek dating, when we were all unformed balls of anxiety.
As a thirty-something geek myself, I have to say that it has helped me with the social awkwardness. On the other hand I can still be pretty oblivious. My current girlfriend spent quite a while in the friend zone because we had worked on projects together with no romantic involvement. So when she started flirting, I thought it was all a joke, just the kind of thing we shot back and forth when working together. I still can't pin down the moment when it clicked over in my head that she was available, interested and interesting to me but apparently I spent months being blithely oblivious. The moment it clicked in my mind that she wasn't kidding I realized what I'd been missing all along. Not sure if there's a moral, just an anecdote.
The further away the geek guy is from high school, the better the prospect is. It takes years for the damage from bullying to heal. It took me over a decade in fact!
Fortunately, polite society has little tolerance for bullying, and the high school bullies are now mostly Walmart associates. It's rare for a professional geek to meet a bully in the professional context. (It does happen, but geeks have more options as adults)
I am cool with doing the approaching; it's just all the geek guys I ask to go on dates with aren't interested. I think there's this damaging stereotype in my head that says that because they are geeky they'd be glad to have interest from me outside of our being friends. This isn't the case. It doesn't matter how pretty or geeky you are – I think perhaps geek men have the upper hand in the choosing stakes, at least at the age I am – 26.
I'm 26 and I feel the same way! Constantly getting friend-zoned or "eh I'm not feelin it" after a few months… when the common advice to nerd girls IS "show up," this can be really damaging and confusing for the ol' self-esteem.
THIS! I'm 25 and it happens to me all the friggin' time. A friend – a geek and Notorious Nice Guy – told me that only men get friendzoned; women don't have that problem. Yeah, what a whiny joke that is. I often meet men who just aren't interested, who didn't even think of me as a sexual being. Like, "What? You thought… oh, haha." It hurts. It's not that I'm not pretty; strange men hit on me all the time. I'm not stupid, either. And while I haven't mastered the art of conversation, I'm quite good at it. Still. When I, moi, give it a try with a guy I'm interested in, nada. Makes me feel like I'm lacking something.
That's exactly why these stereotypes are so damaging. When society tells you that something should be easy and it isn't then it really fucks with you. Whether it's that girls just have to "show up" to that men want sex all the time or any other stereotype.
See above comment about my friendzoned girlfriend. Guys can be clueless. Having said that, if you express your interest, sometimes you'll get rejected. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. I don't personally recommend subtlety or anything. If your friendship can't survive a simple "hey, maybe we should go on a date sometime" and a refusal, it probably wasn't that strong to begin with.
And no, there's nothing wrong with you because some particular guy isn't interested. One of the first rationalizations a geek guy with a lot of female friends learns is "if we did anything, it'd screw up the dynamic we have now". The problem with those sorts of rationalizations, that let Mr. Geek feel good about not making the first move is that eventually we start treating them as true even when ms Geek shows interest.
Again, thanks Doc for being so Lady-Centric this week- I've picked up some good advice for when I go a-trawlin'. My one issue with being the Great Initiator is: I like my guys to be charismatic and have a definite personality… like me. I don't like being the big loud one dominating the relationship, it just doesn't work (and isn't hot) to me- so while this advice is really helpful, the idea of going after a timid, shy guy just doesn't appeal. Am I just chasing unicorns here?
You aren't – but those guys are rare and they're the ones I go after myself – so be prepared for competition!
I've noticed… and that's actually been where a lot of the problems in my dating life are focused: A gender-swap of me trying to impress or assert my existence to the charismatic nerd and having to compete with two or three other girls. When my guy friends (many of whom are men I've pursued that have friend-zoned me) tell me: Lower your standards, try to go for one of the shyer guys- I know twenty! I just rage back: NO!
I'm not looking for a nerd guy to run for president, I just want one who'll initiate a damn conversation and hold his own.
It is so frustrating. I am often the only geek girl in the room and whenever that embarrassing 'love life' question comes up I have to explain that I am single and endure that stupid gasp of geek disbelief followed by wild speculation about where I have 'been going wrong'. It is exhausting that people assume that I could just be settling for someone in the room. I think I deserve to be attracted to the person I date.
I hate it when that happens, too.
It's like they forget you're a person with your own particular wants, tastes, needs, etc and not just a pretty girl. That you're your own person. >.<;
Why settle? I mean, honestly. What's the point of settling? Settling doesn't make you happy.
Wanna know something weird? I get that same reaction… from nerd boys who have friend-zoned me.
I swear, there's a very weird thing that nerd boys forget they've rejected girls too.
"Why settle? I mean, honestly. What's the point of settling? Settling doesn't make you happy."
To be fair though, there are *some* reasons to settle or find a way to change your expectations (these certainly apply to guys as much as it does to girls) -
1. Your standards are pretty much impossible.
If a guy said he wants a girl who was tall, and short, and curvy, and super skinny, all in the same girl, obviously that would be absurd.
You see girls wanting guys who had that punk, "don't give a shit" attitude with tatooes and prison records – but then also want something who is totally emotionally stable, supportive, and always there for her, has a stable job with a good income…
Guys who want model-looking girls but then want to spend all their time not socializing, who want them to land on their own doorstep with no effort or risk on their own part, who think she'll be happy just having sex and playing wow. I just mean that girls who spend a ton of time on their looks really, really tend to be social creatures, you might find a cute girl who's into that (my friend married one, though he did put some effort into it, but he met her playing d&d) – it's just not what "model types" tend to do. (Sidenote – I don't like the model types personally, I've just run into guys who do…I don't get it. It's one thing to be cute, but completely devoid of personality is a big turnoff for me, whereas for them they…seem to like it…I don't get it…).
At some point you have to change what your standards are, or "settle", because it's not possible to get it.
After to many relationships with girls who
2. Your standards are way above what your own level of attractiveness / personality.
I have a female friend right now who's super cute – but is doesn't really understand social things. What does she want? A really good looking, outgoing, social guy. Now – maybe over time she'll figure things out and become more social herself, but for now she just complains about how she attracts "losers" – well no kidding.
I mean I don't really have to say that a lot of times girls feel this way – that all guys believe they "deserve" a super cute girl, when the guy doesn't match up at all.
At a certain point you either have to find a way to improve yourself, or settle.
3. Their emotions and/or standards are inherently contradictory
Like, they're attracted to people who are independent and stand up for themselves, but they break up with anyone who refuses to apologize and change their mind for having their own opinion whenever they disagree with that person. Eventually they have to "settle" or change what they want, because people can't actually be both.
Sometimes someone is super attracted to a certain look, but then on an emotional level completely attracted to a personality and emotional attributes that are the complete opposite of the kind of people that look like that.
Guys who want really passive girls – but want the passive girls to come up and pursue them. Girls who buy into the "don't date someone who lives in your building / works where you do / is friends with your friends / etc etc because if you break up it will be akward" – but then also refuse to date or keep in contact with people they don't already know.
These are more obvious examples for illustration, but in real life they're often far more subtle and hard to figure out.
"Lower your standards"? What the hell? Isn't it a reasonable standard to want someone who's confident and self-assured? It's not like you're asking them to look like a celebrity model.
Well, there's the difference. When geek guys complain that they "can't find anyone," they literally mean can't find ANYONE — standards or no standards, there are precisely 0 girls interested in dating him.
The geek girls that this article is talking to have it much easier, their problem is limited to not being able to get the one (or one of a few) guys that they're attracted to.
To me, that's a huge difference. So much so that it's dishonest to gloss over it by saying something like "the geeks of both genders have dating problems," as this article attempts to.
@Syndo exhibit a) all girls here who have been friend-zoned.
@Syndo I find it hard to believe that you're asking every single female you meet if they'd be interested in dating you. Which is what would be required in order to support your claim that "they literally mean can’t find ANYONE — standards or no standards, there are precisely 0 girls interested in dating him."
Jen. I can't say that I know or understand your viewpoint, but I can give you mine. I'm what many would call a Charismatic Nerd. I'm not completely lost when it comes to social cues or mores, I am a very social creature, have many nerd/nerd-positive friends (male and female), and I am (in general) able to walk up and start/carry a conversation with anyone. However, that's the main problem: Conversation is not Flirting. Getting past the level of friendly conversation is not something I will broach. I find that I'm terrified that I will offend them (on top of the usual CRIPPLING approach anxiety, and my [now] inability to ask for anything, even if I really want it in my life. Only take what is offered, never ask for anything, earn the rest on your own. It was how I was raised.), so to avoid losing out on a really great and potentially beneficial friendship (or the friendship of their friends, i.e. "Airships", "Starships", D&D groups, and other nerd gatherings) I simply never go any further. I may like them, but those feelings can fade over time, and I honestly do not mind having a friend instead. Will I be disappointed when the feelings fade? Yes, at first. However, I'm more than a little relieved because in my mind if they had had an interest in me they would have shown it and I DIDN'T ruin everything by jumping the gun on them. It does leave me feeling a bit like a lone dancing social robot at times. I keep everyone at arm's length, but this is how I cope with what I feel (probably not good, I know).
Also, I have abysmal self esteem. You wouldn't think so by looking at me, but you also don't know my childhood. Because of this, I am not good at recognizing that you are flirting with me even if you think you are being obvious. As an example, this girl I knew got a little DRUNK and started throwing around words like "slamtown", "pounding", and kept saying "gosh you're funny, sit here by ME". It wasn't until AFTER she left ALONE that I even thought to ask my friend if she was hitting on me! Obviously, I still wouldn't have left with her while she was drunk and I was not. When you're a guy, you just have to be careful and think about those things. Oh, and as for how things are going between she and I now: I haven't seen her since that night, and I've heard that she was pretty pissed off that I "rejected her" when I ACTUALLY just didn't know that she really (not just drunkenly) wanted to sleep with me. I WAS interested in her but if she isn't going to be very understanding, why should I?
Also, some girls just flirt just for the fun of flirting. I've run into SO many (especially at cons) that will hang all over me despite the fact that their boyfriend/girlfriend is standing just over there/not at this con/ at this con but flirting with someone else, that I just don't trust the little flirting "signals" as the real go ahead for an approach.
So, basically you have to be slightly more visible than BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS with your intentions. Want to sleep with me? Don't be drunk, and tell me directly. Want to date me? Ask me out in an obvious manner, preferably with the words "I (really) like you"/"I think you're cute" and "date". Remember, just because he's Charismatic Socially doesn't mean he can't have the EXACT same problems with shyness and self-esteem in the personal sphere. Oh, and as for the other girls you are "competing with", If they don't have the chesticles to do what I've told you, then they aren't your competition because he probably won't even notice them flirting.
Thanks for this comment Jen.
I almost feared this would become a little one sided, especially after the intimidating women post.
I've been hit on in the past by women (some of which later became my girlfriends, others who later thought I was gay), precisely because I was open, talking to and flirting with people folks.
(Interestingly, I've hardly ever been hit on by guys…)
It's just that I think geek men have to understand that geek girls are exactly the same as them. We are also particularly acquainted with rejection, even they think we look like the goddesses we would never deem to be. I have spent most of my twenties being rejected by geeks I admire.
All the Geek Guy points apply to me except the "used to rejection" part, haven't made it to that point yet, being in University does not leave me a lot of time to actually get out of my normal geek shell, but perhaps this is just an excuse (or that I can be a chronic procrastinator at times).
Being at University is the BEST time to get out of your shell, and to date! You've got lots of opportunity for interaction, and you should take opportunities to socialize. School work is important, don't get me wrong, but you'll never again be in the position you are in college, and those opportunities won't be there when you graduate!
Ah… see this didn't occur to me until AFTER I found Dr. Nerdlove that fateful day when a friend shared the "White Knight" article on her profile (Being 2 years into University at that point). I am glad I avoided it completely in high school though, too much "drama", and too much gossip (Luckily my friends were never part of those crowds).
I have a friend that makes it her mission to get her Geek/Nerd friends out of the house (She has many). Ended up going to a Halloween Cosplay Dance, if it is with friends then why not. I never would have considered going if not for discovering Dr. Nerdlove, and I am now trying to make a conscious effort to get myself out there and socialize. I didn't find out it was a dance until after I got there, they couldn't get this geek to dance though, but surprisingly had a good time. I'm getting there, but slowly.
I've found some things work more on different guys than others. Remember the individual, and appreciate the individual. I like this article because I've always been really shy, and perhaps unaproachable. Maybe I shoul learn to make the first move…. But I've found my geek boy already, so it would be for platonic relationships.
only attractive girls can ever have a chance with dating. when you're ugly it's pretty hopeless.
I'm not sure if this was meant as a "I don't feel I am attractive enough for anyone to ever want me" comment or if it's something else. If it was the first one, then cheer up little camper. It's never hopeless. I've never been the "pretty" girl, or the "hot girl" in any social group. My female friends have always out shone my looks and had all the guys coming to them, over looking me. They still do. But that didn't stop me from meeting and marrying a great science nerd guy, or having relationships with three other alpha geeks after the science guy and I divorced many years later. "Ugly" girls can find love too. It's not hopeless, just harder. There are men out there who will look past your physical aspects and find beauty in who you are. They are just harder to find sometimes.
peace
-e
why would you want to be the ugly girl and work hard on your personality that guys don't give a shit about? fuck that. You need physically attraction too why would I want someone just to like me for my personality? I have friends for that.
it just doesn't matter. hell the doc always gives advice on guy how to get "hot" girls. Who wants ugly girls?
Everybody's definition of 'ugly' is different. Society as a whole has the perfect ideal, but not all guys are into that (hell, not all girls are into the "perfect" guy, either).
Everything is subjective. What is almost universally unattractive is being down on yourself all the time, though. The only exceptions I can think of are people who like to use insecurities to manipulate and that isn't going to lead to a healthy relationship anyway.
Also, I've been feeling pretty annoyed with men as a whole lately, but you need to seriously reevaluate your expectations. They aren't all tit-grabbing monsters. Some are quite nice, in fact, and actually do appreciate a good personality. To say all they ever want is someone pretty is really degrading to a lot of good men out there.
Thank you UnderOrange. That was what I was driving at.
-e
If you could show me your picture I would probably think you're pretty. Especially when you smile.
People really, really undervalue the power of a smile to make you look better. Best makeup in the world is to twitch a couple face muscles, and sometimes people just can't seem to be bothered. =P
I'll agree with you on the personality thing. Some guys don't really care for it. Or they like a specific type of personality and ignore the rest. Many of those guys aren't ones you'd want in the first place in my opinion, but, eh, to each their own.
One thing to keep in mind though is that a positive attitude is a universally popular attitude with everyone except those who are also negative.
In this case, like attracts like. If you want a negative partner, by all means, keep concentrating on how ugly you think you are. If you want a positive partner, think positive.
It sounds so completely trite but it is so completely true. Any excuse you come up with to /not/ do that is your own way of trapping yourself into your own hole.
Good luck.
seriously? maybe you should work on the self-hate before you try dating. lack of self-esteem is off-putting and if you're the one saying, 'God, I'm so ugly – I'm sure you hate me' what do you THINK is going to happen?
OK, this advice is going to sound pretty crude. But sometimes evolutionary biology can be a little raw.
I have yet to see a woman, regardless of her looks, who cannot make herself look worlds better by doing her hair, putting on the makeup, and wearing a skimpy dress. I have seen women – who were almost wider than they were tall – having men hit on them … when they were showing cleavage. I have a good friend (and former fiancee) who has weighed upwards of 240 pounds at times. One day we were talking on the phone and she mentioned how it seems everyone wants to sit next to her at meetings when she is wearing a low-cut top or dress. So we tried an experiment. She intentionally wore equally attractive but non-cleavage-showing clothes on some days and cleavage-showing clothes on others. Being the scientific types, we made sure various groups of people got the same number of cleavage and non-cleavage days. Guess what? Cleavage won – hands down. (OK, now there's an image.) Both men and women were much more friendly to her when she was showing cleavage. We now call it: "The Power of the Cleavage" (with echo sound-effects). I am sure this is not real news for anyone, but sometimes it bears pointing out to some people.
You may think, "Oh this is easy for a big girl with lots and lots of cleavage to show." But it works even for incredibly flat-chested women as well. I have seen it in action. If you don't have cleavage just show chest. Seriously! It works just the same. Most guys don't seem to notice or care the difference.
I have participated in shy-people groups before and women have said that they just can't do this because it looks too slutty. Or that they are too shy. I understand. It can be almost as difficult as approaching someone you are attracted to. You feel as if everyone is staring at your breasts. In reality they are probably just stealing furtive glances. (They don't want to get smacked.) Fortunately, you can work your way up to it slowly, if you like. You don't have to go straight to the plunge-neckline, can-you-see-my-belly-button dress. Just wear a V-neck instead of a regular T-shirt once in a while.
Every single woman I have ever known, who has taken this advice, has started getting dates. And with guys they like. Do you think your face looks mannish? Get some help with your makeup and show some cleavage. Do you think you have a big a**? Show some cleavage. Short stumpy legs? Show some cleavage.
Yes, it is crude. Yes, men are animals. But so are women. We are all animals and we have instincts that affect us whether we like it or not. Whether we know it or not.
Some women will say, "Women shouldn't have to present themselves as pieces of meat." But that is a straw-man (-woman) argument. I am not saying to go out in full-on slut mode (not that there is anything wrong with that, if that is how you like to dress). I am just saying to loosen things up a little, then a little more. But that's it. Really. It works. And for women who think they are unattractive, it can be the little bit of magic that gets them over the hurdle into realizing that they can be seen as attractive too.
Now, if you show too much cleavage in a room full of young and horny geek-guys, you may get the "booth bimbo" treatment. Just smack those guys down and tell them to grow the F up. But you will also get the attention of that nice guy in the corner who you may want to meet. He may not come over to you right away, but he will notice you and be more receptive to you when you make an excuse to be near him and just say, "Hi." By showing some cleavage, you are sending the signal that you ARE a woman and are prepared to move beyond the "just friends" stage with at least one lucky guy. Sure, it sucks for the rest of us guys who are moved by "The Power of the Cleavage." But we will just have to accept that not every cleavage-showing woman is going to want to be with us. But at least we can enjoy the scenery. ;^)
Now, I have to go out and work on slaying some of my own personal demons. Prior to writing this post, I had actually decided that what I need to to is take some of my own advice and go out and just start talking to ANY woman close enough to talk to, regardless of whether I think she is cute or attractive or not. If personality is the most important thing, then I have to LISTEN for that personality. Something I can't find by just looking at people. I have to actually friggin' talk to them. Plus, I feel this will help reduce my anxiety if there is no goal other than to just talk. Who knows, if you are in Tucson, we just may run into each other. If you have taken my advice I will do my best to remember that your eyes are up there.
Indeed. A lot of the Doc's advice for nerd guys involve dressing nice and improving their appearance. I think for some women the advice equally applies.
A lot of women are not ugly, but they are just plain Jane. Plain Jane is boring. She dresses in boring clothes, does her hair in a boring way, and doesn't put make-up on her boring face. She rarely smiles, in fact I've seen some plain Janes who have wrinkles that form a permanent frown.
On the flip side, I find fake women to be equally unattractive. Some men here will agree with me, while others won't. The key to beauty is to present the likable features of yourself in a positive manner. You aren't faking it, you are just broadcasting what the Maker gave ya. Plain Jane fails to get the guy because she (subconsciously?) hides her positive traits.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. I wear make-up every day… and make-up done eh, fairly professionally. I'm in my local Bare Essentials so much the store clerks know me by name and favorite lip gloss. Yeah.
I've worn low cut tops (I have a slightly larger chest, so even moderate scoop necks show a bit of cleavage.) Heck, I wore a freaking corset to a sci-fi con last year.
Nary a man has hit on me. I have never been hit on once, by a guy. Women, on the other hand, approach me all the time… in the corset, women were CONSTANTLY touching my cleavage. (Was a tad… odd.)
Maybe I am the freak exception, but going by my experience, it really isn't as easy as all that.
2 O'Clock Queen:
Are you telling me that no man has ever approached you ever? Remember, Nicole J. is probably not looking to be "hit on." She just wants to feel more attractive. She THINKS she is "ugly." A sure-fire way to prove that she is not is to show some cleavage and wait for the attention to come pouring in. If you are wearing corsets to SF cons then maybe you might be over-doing it a little in regular life. Do you only hang out with geeks? They are more easily "intimidated" by "The Power of the Cleavage" if it is tooo powerful. Are you making eye contact? Are you making it clear that you are NOT seeing some other guy.
If a woman who THINKS she is "ugly" shows some cleavage and goes out to a regular bar she WILL get some attention. It may not be from guys she is attracted to but it will at least prove that she CAN be attractive. And that is a start.
It's all about balance. Especially within the geek culture. Too much of the Big-C and guys may assume you are taken. But too little and they may think you are in "I just wanna be one of the guys" mode. Plus, as the good Dr. has explained before, many geek guys may have unreasonable expectations about how a woman should look. Their brains have not had much exposure to the real world. But – especially for a woman who THINKS she is "ugly" – going out to regular bars, where there are lots of regular guys and lots of regular women (who in reality look no better than that "ugly" woman) and seeing how much attention she can get just by not hiding herself, It can be great for the self esteem.
Well the corset was part of a costume. I was actually probably one of the more conservatively dressed women there.
Either way, yeah, I've been around "regular" guys. Still no hitting on. The trend is I'll start talking to a guy (I initiate), and I'll somehow spend the evening listening to him complain and cry about his ex/his crush/all the hot women who ignore him. Oh how old it gets.
Regular guys, nerd guys, doesn't matter… never been hit on, make-up and cleavage in tow.
@2 O'Clock Queen: Those do not sound like regular guys to me.
If I could, I would so put my contact information here. >._>
Anyway, I think this kind of advice is helpful for girls in general with otherwise-great guys that are a little behind on the social skills thing. I think the examples given take it to the extreme, but the plus side of that, whatever works on the 'worst' cases is just fine to do on the 'not so bad' cases too (and those guys will still appreciate it, trust me.) Heck, you could do any of this stuff on guys with no bad social skills at all and if they still aren't interested then they really are clueless and have no idea what they're missing. o.o
I often think the gender role of the guy having to pursue the girl is a really bum rap and I hope more women are able to take the initiative leap. Not only the first move, but the second, the third, and so on. And then once you've gotten the guy in his comfort zone and things are going good, why not keep that up? He suggests dates, you suggest them too. I'm happy to come up with ideas for dates, but I do get a little burdened by having to /always/ come up with the ideas. Why is that always the guy's job? >…<
Spray some Subtlety-B-Gone and get out your Clue-by-Four. Unless you're willing to do that, then don't ever peg a guy as 'not interested' when he could just be clueless. Trust me, us geek guys want the girls just as badly as you (apparently, and this is a surprise to me) want them. o.o
Indeed – I had no idea a) my personality was so predictable b) that there is a demand for it
I second your sentiments, though from a female perspective:
a) a lot of this stuff applies to me as well, and
b) I almost always get weird sidelong looks whenever I talk about something fairly nerdy/geeky with new acquaintances. I usually get a message of "Whoa! Too much nerdiness!" which is why I try to be really nonchalant about my 'weird' side. Didn't even know there was a demand for geeky women until really recently, though I guess it makes sense. I never DID believe that guy a few years ago when he said he'd never met any other girls who liked computer games…
I'm all for finding a geek guy, making of connection of mutual passions, but I have to keep my feet grounded in some sort of reality here. I'm twice as shy as most of these male based examples, and I'm not going to magically have the confidence to be the instigator. I'm not the girl guys are dying to ask out and I'm just as bad at noticing the signs. I know that I need to put myself out there and try, it's just not an enjoyable experience when I'm stumbling to make conversation and go completely unnoticed because I'm not holding up a giant sign that says, "Stop looking at Catwoman's boobs and look at me!!!"
I mean, what do guys think when they encounter the shy geek girl? We can't all be bombshells and it's frustrating trying to battle my shyness while also trying to combat his. Is there no hope if I can't win either fight?
First we have to see them. Everyone thinks the stereotypical 'shy' person is the one sitting by the wall staring at her hands. And yeah, if you're that obvious about it, guys may approach you on that alone. That could be what works for you. Either way though, once a guy starts talking to you, to some extent you can let it be in his hands (although do your best to contribute as much as you can, even if you're shy.) But first you have to get the guy talking to you, somehow.
Once you do, you should be okay. One of the times when I am least shy is when I'm trying to coax a shy girl out of her shell. She's shy enough for the both of us is how I put it. It gives a bit of confidence to be the 'not shy one' in the relationship, so to speak.
The last shy girl I met, was very shy in person but was very forward in text messages. So maybe finding an outlet could work for you, as long as you can try to clarify that even when you're shy you're interested, so you don't mean to send mixed signals. (You'd probably have to say something like that in 'not shy mode' like a text message. =P)
Ultimately in my opinion, two shy people (who stay shy) just aren't really going to work out. By that I mean, at least when they're alone together, one's going to have to step up. Take control, take charge, keep the relationship moving forward. Keep conversation instead of awkward silence, if nothing else. If they both just kinda sit there, look at their hands in their lap, and kind of smile nervously at each other, they win romantic cuteness of the year award and you look at 'em and you wanna go 'Aww' but then you wanna bang their heads together and say get on with it. =P (I refer to the cartoon crab above. This time for both of them. =P)
So you really have two choices. You can either choose to be the one that steps up and feels less shy because the guy is shy, or you have to find the least-subtle 'clue' you're capable of giving and use it to death until he's willing to take over for you and have /him/ be the one that steps up and feels less shy. Either way, you get to face the same fear of rejection that the guys do, so I'd read up on all of the Doc's other writings as well and just cross-gender them. The advice is still sound.
Thank you for the reply! I'm hoping that I'll gradually be able to get better at directing a conversation and with that I won't always have to rely on someone else to keep things moving. Being shy but still approachable is where I'm trying to start, but all these things take some work. Step one: Not hiding in the darkest corner.
Your observations are pretty sound, the goal is for me to be engaging without looking like I'm forcing myself. That's another problem I've observed from my dark corner. When people try to force themselves out of being shy they sometimes come off as being overly forced, similarly to a person who just isn't interested in talking.
I agree completely that two very shy people will have trouble initiating unless someone steps up, but I can see a relationship moving smoothly. It also depends on how shy each person really is. Some just have trouble with conversation, others are great at conversation but not action, etc.
I'm hoping that I'll just come across someone who gets it and notices that I'm trying, instead of shrugging it off. That would make it so much less stressful.
I've been thinking of making a T-Shirt that says, "I'm shy. Please talk to me."
Feel free to steal my idea. Plus my previous one.
XKCD beat you to it
http://store.xkcd.com/xkcd/#JustShy
"I mean, what do guys think when they encounter the shy geek girl?"
As a shy geek guy, I might see a kindred spirit, someone more likely to understand who I am and why I behave how I do, than the manic party girl would.
James (the post next to this one) says two shy people can't work out. I disagree — first, the "romantic cuteness of the year award" counts for a lot. Not every couple has to be going out and doing new and exciting stuff every day. Staying home and smiling lovingly at each other sounds pretty nice, too.
If there's only one person at a get-together that I'd go out of my way to talk to, it's the shy girl standing in a corner, staring at her shoes or something. It's worth suspending my own shyness for a few minutes to go and introduce myself.
But the reason you work out in that way is because you're able to "suspend your own shyness for a few minutes to go and introduce [yourself]."
I think two shy people can work all the time. My point was they won't work unless one or the other (or both) can 'step up' and not be shy, even if it's just for a little bit at a time. They could even take turns being shy.
And 'romantic cuteness of the year' is just fine in some cases. Me, I'd love to quietly cuddle on the couch and watch a movie or play video games together and not necessarily talk too much, and just enjoy being together. But if it gets awkward and uncomfortable and you're both stressing about how badly the conversation is going, and neither of you steps up to fix it, I don't see that working out in the long run.
I know couples that are both shy in public and so they kind of sit quietly together, not really talking to others or even to each other. But they do okay when there's less or no people around. They're not shy around each other anymore.
So yeah, two shy people /can/ work, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Finding a kindred spirit would be amazing. Making it all the way through an introduction without too many awkward pauses might be a different case entirely.
However, in the mean time, I highly recommend approaching the shy girl, even if it's only for a short chat. If I came across more people willing to try and approach me, instead of gravitating into those impenetrable group huddles, I would definitely find myself wanting to equally engage with them.
Using myself as an example, if I see a beautiful, geeky, reserved woman, I normally think two things. 1. She's out of my league, and 2. she's smart enough to know it.
I think the good Doctor should go out of his way and start the worst dating service ever: http://www.viruscomix.com/page498.html
tl;dr
Well I liked it!
I totally appreciate this article. I'm a mega geek but not really that introverted. I am, however completely clueless to women coming on to me. This has only gotten worse as I've, for the last year, worked 7 days on nights at a factory. Though in my past experiences, the girl who is willing to make the first move has always been the more fun and adventurous type.
A little over a year back, I was relaxing in a bar, admiring the womenfolk– including a waitress I found very attractive. At one point, that waitress put her hand on my chest, and told me "I just wanted to tell you that I think you are really cute." Then she moved on.
There's flirting, there's initiation, then there's a spot in between. One suggestion I have, if there is a guy who tickles your fancy but isn't making the first move, do something that's a little ballsy. You don't have to ask him out, but say something get catches him way out of left field, and then let it linger in his mind for a minute.
I ended up asking for her number, but not at first. It took me until the next time she came by; and after that I did the initiating for dates, kissing, etc.
This way, it's a little more expensive to your self esteem, but is more provocative than traditional flirting. But, it's less risky than going balls out and just asking him out. He he does nothing then it's not meant to be, but I think it's easier to take that than to hear him say "no."
Baaaahumbug. I've tried this timid wildlife approach and my quarry is still reticent. I guess I haven't encountered the right little deer yet?
That's how I got my man! We were together at my house to watch movies and talk. We had met through (a veritable boatload of) mutual friends, a few weeks previous, but we hadn't seen all that much of each other — just written each other on MySpace and gone in a group to a Halloween party.
He was sweet and quirky and funny and . . . well, shy. He was very obviously into me (and I say that as a girl with Aspergers), but I knew from mutual friends that he had gone through a bad series of break-ups and rejections. Which meant he was having trouble asking me. I knew what I had to do, but this was my own very first relationship prospect, so I was super terrified.
My horrible, horrible (totally passive-agressive) line? "I don't think it bears mentioning that I like you rather a lot." The nervous tension let out of the room imploded like a balloon with the air let loose (it was almost palpable), and my man was so overcome that he buried his face (now totally red) in the cushions on the back of the couch and gave a little giggle of relief. It was the most adorable thing I ever had seen.
I've been reading this blog for a few months now: to Dr. Nerdlove and everyone who comments, you're pretty awesome! All of these perspectives are really broadening my social awareness.
I don't see the thread on facebook, and I would like to read the comments just to see what people said.
Great article… I can honestly say a lot of that is how my girlfriend got me.
I recently wrote a song about how women can pick up the geek guy of their dreams. It's called Geeks Don't Care. http://www.bit.ly/geeksong if you'd like to hear it.
I have only one comment that would not pile praise upon this article…
You keep saying "an //attractive// geek girl," "an //attractive// woman," etc. What if you're not attractive? What if you don't look like those pictures? What if you aren't size two with perfect arms and abs and boobs and butt. What if you're just…regular?
How often do you wear even a little bit of makeup, or exercise, or dress up?
The article only uses the word "attractive" three times (and two are in the same sentence making the same point). I never got the impression it was referring only to strategies for modelesque women. The vast majority of "regular" woman are going to be attractive to some guys. Any guy, nerd or otherwise, who's holding out for the most attractive woman ever to come after him is probably going to find himself waiting a long time.
Attractiveness (aka beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. You're probably cute to quite a few guys and just don't realize it any more than the cute nerd your chasing realizes he's attractive to you. Don't put too much stock in the pictures used in this article. That girl could be a Kardashian sister and the nerd is wearing tape on his glasses.