Why Women Flake (And How To Stop It)

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How many times have you been doing well with a woman you’d just met only to have it fizzle out the next day with no warning? In the moment, everything was amazing; you were flirting back and forth, you got her number and the promise of getting together later. By all rights it should be all systems go for getting a date that weekend. Instead, it’s all last minute cancellations and radio silence. That first time you asked her out ended with “Sounds great, call me the day of, ok?”. The day of, it was “Oh I’m so sorry, but I’m actually busy today. Maybe next time?” Then… nothing. Your texts get one or two word answers. Your voice mails are never being returned. You’re shouting impotently into the void, hoping for an answer.

She flaked on you. Sucks, don’t it?

Unfortunately, flaking is a common occurrence when you’re dating, especially when you’re building your skills. It’s incredibly frustrating because it can feel as though it came out of nowhere – you were doing everything right and then suddenly you hit that wall of silence. So what can you do about it? Well, to start with, let’s examine why women flake… and then how we can prevent flakes from happening1 .

What Is Flaking, Anyway?

Sometimes it can help to define our terms in order to avoid confusion. There’s a difference between a flake out and, say, someone cutting of contact because he or she just plain doesn’t like you.

Sudden radio silence – watching a flirtation over OKCupid cut off without warning, or a string of unanswered calls or texts without even the promise of a date in the first place – are not flaking. These are signs that, for whatever reason, the person you were talking to just decided that they were no longer interested. Maybe you screwed up. Maybe they just weren’t feeling the chemistry. Maybe they have an irrational hatred of the way you use the oxford comma, who knows?

Flaking, on the other hand, is a last minute-cancellation of tentative plans; you’re all spruced up, so caught up with excitement for your date with that cute woman you met at the bar last Monday that you’ve shown up twenty minutes early. You’re half-caught up in imagining the sloppy make-outs that are in store for you later that night when you get the dreaded text: “Hey, turns out I can’t make it today. Maybe some other time.” Suddenly, you’re left all dressed up with nowhere to go, feeling your ego (and your half-chub) deflating like a leaky pool-toy. Any subsequent texts get non-commital answers and your voice mails aren’t being returned in the first place.

 

Why Women Flake

Flaking usually comes down to one of two issues. The first is very simple: she’s not that into you. She may have been having a good time with you in the moment – after all, everybody appreciates talking with someone who’s funny and interesting, especially if they’re good looking – but ultimately, she’s just not feeling that spark she needs that pushes her from “Well that was fun,” to “That was fun and I want to see this guy again!”. Other women will simply play along for a while… maybe out of boredom, maybe just because they’re going along to get along and just waiting for a socially acceptable excuse to send you packing. This, incidentally, is one of the reasons why women will just hand out their number so easily to people they don’t give a damn about; it presents a natural break in the interaction and most guys will take it and go away. In an age of omnipresent cellphones, caller ID and voice mail, giving out a phone number is low-risk, low-investment. A woman can tell at a glance that someone she doesn’t care about and let it go straight to voice mail – and then from there to the digital garbage bin.

“Look, I’m only putting up with you because I seem to have misplaced my pepper-spray.”

The best way to avoid this is, simply, be better at knowing how to build her interest in  you. One of the best ways is getting her to qualify herself to you; the more attraction you can build, the more likely she will be looking forward to actually meeting up with you instead of giving you the 21st century brush-off.

The other cause is the loss of what’s called “emotional momentum”.

The excitement and rush of a positive in-person interaction is heady, but it can wear off quickly if you don’t do anything to maintain it. Like a car running out of gas, you go from speeding along to sputtering to a halt. Leaving with vague promises to “hang out later” or to “talk sometime” won’t help maintain the excitement or emotional connection that you just spent the last X number of minutes/hours building.  Wishy-washy texts and voice mails cause her excitement to fade even faster. Similarly, going for long periods of time without contact will cause the momentum to diminish. The more the momentum fades, she stops picturing you as the awesome guy she was really interested in and become just another guy she vaguely remembers giving her number to.

Keeping The Momentum Going Through Proper Use of The Phone

If you want to prevent flakes from happening, you have to keep the ball rolling, and the best way to do this is to know how to use texts and phone calls to your advantage. This means that as a general rule, you want to start the contact as soon as possible after getting her number.

A lot of guys will balk at this stage; they don’t want to appear “too eager” or worry about creeping her out. Instead, they wait for some random interval of days (the “three days” rule, for example) in an effort to appear more confident or aloof – when in reality, they’re just trying to muster up the courage.

It this sounds like you, think about it this way: if you met someone cool and had an amazing conversation with them, wouldn’t you want to keep in contact so you could keep things going?

Rather than calling right away, I advocate a quick text “ping” – a short, cute message that helps establishes contact and gauges how interested she is in talking to you  – within 24 hours of getting her number. In fact, depending on the context of how we met and for how long, I recommend pinging even sooner; if you met in, say, a club or a bar, she will likely have given her number out several times and the sooner you can establish contact with her the less likely you will melt into the blur of every guy she met that night.

After a successful ping, you should start a text conversation – one that leads towards setting up a call. It can be as simple as ending a conversation with “Hey, I’ve gotta do stuff, but I want to keep talking to you. I’ll call you a little bit later, ok?”

Naturally, you want to make sure you actually follow up with that phone call that day. Long periods without contact will kill that momentum, leaving you with another dead number.

Once you make the call, you should ask her out on a definitive date. No “we should hang out some time” or “hey, if you’re interested, maybe we could get a drink later…”. No putting the onus on her to set up the date for you; this not only betrays a lack of confidence, but it leaves things vague and unclear. You want to be specific: “Hey, I’m going to see this art show on Friday at 8, you should totally come with me. I think you’d love it.”

Having a firm time and day makes it more concrete, which in turn makes her much less likely to flake out.

  1. Let’s get the Head and Shoulders jokes out of the way now, shall we? []

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  • Squirrel

    I know that you touched on this and that pretty much the whole rest of the website is "How to figure out when you've fucked up," but I feel like this article needs a little more emphasis on "What did I do to contribute to a potential flake situation?" Most of the guys I "flaked" on could have used a little frank self-analysis before trying to salvage any future relationship. One dude in particular ignored all signals I sent that I wasn't connecting with him. We had long lulls in conversation, he spent half the conversation telling me I was pretty and the other half talking about his research, and he regularly disregarded my requests that he not IM me during certain times of the day. Eventually, I just started ignoring him because I couldn't find any way to make him understand that I simply wasn't interested. EVEN TO THIS DAY (many years and a happy marriage later) still sends me the occasional IM asking if I want to do coffee.

    • S.

      +1

      I'm also pretty dubious about referring to it as a flake out especially in reference to women, because there's still a prevailing idea that women are just overly ~*~emotional, flighty, and unstable~*~ that using a word with links to that idea is just… not helpful.

      • Jess

        Yeah, I suppose "she flaked on me" is kinder to the male ego than "she stood me up." But the latter has more power for the woman, which is why it has probably changed in the male vernacular.

        • JD

          It's just not an honest way to deal with another human being. It makes the field of dating a chaotic minefield for some of us. It's a significant reason why nerd guys can't see it when a girl is genuinely interested in them.

          People (after all, guys do this too) need to admit that this is a form of bait and switch, where you get the other parties hopes up just to let them down. I've had a few women now who have approached me, who I wasn't interested in. I have honestly told women they are not my type, or if I am feeling like a pussy that day I'll be like "sorry, i just met someone else." In either case, I am not creating a false sense of hope.

          • Jess

            I agree with you, no matter what you call it, it's a crappy thing to do, but I was just curious how the language has changed.

    • PizzaSHARK!

      Um. Did you ever just consider telling him you weren't interested and to stop contacting you?

      • Squirrel

        Um, did you ever consider that when I said "I couldn’t find any way to make him understand that I simply wasn’t interested" that it included saying "Hey, sorry, but I'm just not interested in you, please stop IMing me"? The guy IMed me *regularly* during the hours that I asked him not to, would get upset if I didn't respond right away, and asked me out on coffee dates *even knowing I'm married*. It was either block him, or verbally nuke him THEN block him.

        • Paul Rivers

          Squirrel, if that's what happened then what you're describing is *not* what the majority of guys are complaining about when it comes to "flaking".

          Flaking is when she (or he) makes plans with you, seems interested and excited, then cancels through no fault of your own. Normally it's a negative term, suggested that either they didn't have a good reason to cancel, or that the reason they gave you was a polite excuse, or even a social "white lie" so they don't look bad.

          It has *nothing* to do with a situation where you tell someone to stop contacting you and they keep doing it.

          Seriously…absolutely nothing. Actually, I'm not sure why you would conclude that they mean the same thing, those 2 situations are very differnent.

          • Squirrel

            My comment was written before (and eventually led to) the good Doc editing the article to include a better definition of flaking. There was a middle part to the interaction with this guy that happened between our first date and the final nuclear decision which I probably could have articulated that better. But frankly there's no point at this stage of the conversation. I felt that something was missing from the article, tried to comment on it (badly, it seems), and it led to an edit which sufficiently clarified the definition. Problem solved.

          • Paul Rivers

            Fair enough…I probably read it after the changes.

            I would just say that as a guy, if you've actually factually told him you don't want to talk to him any more (or you don't want him texting you at certain hours and he keeps doing it), telling him off and blocking him completely is both appropriate, and never "flaking".

    • Nikki

      have you ever tried, you know, telling him you're not interested?

    • Dr. NerdLove

      I wouldn't call that flaking on someone, especially within context of the article; that's just cutting off communication 'cuz the guy's a moron. Flaking entails the last minute canceling of an at least tentative date with minimal explanation and no real attempt at rescheduling… assuming that they don't just stand you up.

      I may have needed to make that clearer. Huzzah for the power of edit functions!

    • Hey dumbass.

      here's an idea…. Instead of giving "hints" how bout you be a fucking adult and tell him flatly your not interested?

      • lethe

        Hey a-hole, instead of blurting out derogatory mean stuff, maybe you should read all the comments thoroughly before you insult sb(and show that your reading skills are poor or you searched for a reason to insult?
        Dunno but the thing you said was totes not necessary- ‘doc love’ edited the text bc the discussion (which btw ended well almost 4 months BEFORE you insulted)with squrrel showed the murky(eh? schwammige) first definition of ‘flaking’ wasnt clear enuff.

      • IglooIguana

        exactly what I was thinking!! He "ignored" all "signals" that you weren't interested. What exactly were these "signals". Maybe you were just "thinking" it, and expected him to read your mind? LMFAO

  • I like the article and think it has some good advice. I feel like it is leaving out the root cause of the problem. It would seem honest, direct communication would solve these problems quicker. "I am not feeling the connection", "I don't have romantic interest in you", something like that would cut down the games of who is ignoring who perhaps. Also, at what point to you stop playing the dating game and start the honest relationship development through communication? Just some thoughts. Thanks for sharing!

    • But the article isn't being aimed at people (or women in particular) who are flaking on people, it's aimed at people who are being flaked on.

  • UM

    I'd like to add that if someone if honest and just says that they don't want to date you, you don't get to whine, complain or claim that s/he owes you either. Especially not on Facebook where everyone and their mother can see it.

  • Aurelia Verity

    Also, I feel I should mention this:

    Sometimes, even if everything is going well, girl seems interested, conversation is flowing, date is planned or is in planning, etc., something really does come up that puts dating out of her head.

    For some reason guys refuse to believe this, they assume she’s making it up, brushing them off, that she’s dangled them on a string or whatever, but here the thing: I know in the media all girls seem to talk about is dating, but in real life your personal relationship status is only one of the great many things you have to juggle. There’s work, school, family, friends, pets and so many other things that can crap out on you at any moment.

    Her asshole boss can give her a massive project, her grandmother may have suddenly died, her roommate might be in hysterics over a break-up throwing up raspberry vodka in the bathroom, her pet terrier might have eaten some Christmas chocolate and needs to be rushed to the vet. Yesterday everything was flirty fun, today everything is in the toiler and it’s up to her to fish it out. Surely you’ve had moments like that, why can’t she? And here’s the thing, she doesn’t know you that well yet, so in the grand scheme of things you’re sacrificeable, she had not yet had the time to become emotionally attached to you.

    I once had a thing with this guy some two or three years back. Things were going ok, we were at a point of establishing a date. Then, just like that, a course I was taking started handing me my ass. It was a course vital my degree and to me continuing my program, suddenly I did not have time for dating. I, explained, put the date off for a while and when we finally met up it was not the same. In the end, nothing came out of it. It wasn’t his fault and it wasn’t mine, just sometimes things don’t work out.

    You can’t always get what you want.

    • Paul Rivers

      "For some reason guys refuse to believe this, they assume she’s making it up, brushing them off, that she’s dangled them on a string or whatever"

      That's because it's more often than not the case.

      Look, as a guy, I don't *really* understand how many guys out there are willing to lie, cheat, and tell you whatever you want to hear to have sex with you then drop you like a rock. I mean I can logically think about it, but since I'm not that kind of guy and my friends mostly aren't those kind of guys either, I'm never part of that process.

      And as a girl, you don't *really* understand how many girls are out there looking for nothing but validation attention that they don't want to lead anywhere. Some of them actually intellectually realize it, others do not but do it anyways (suddenly after making plans her since of excitement dies off and she doesn't know why! – without any further interaction from you that would have caused it). For every guy that checks you out in an innapropriate way, there's at least one girl who will happily flirt with you (as a guy), exchange numbers, make plans – and then "mysteriously" have to cancel in a slowly downhill series of "oh gee, I'm not sure if I can do it…oh gosh, something came up…".

      I once dated a girl who told me that she was at the park with a friend of hers, and a guy came up to talk to them. He was paying more attention to her friend (who was single) and she didn't like not being the one getting attention, so she started talking to him more engaging him more, etc – taking all the attention away from her friend. She got his number…while she was dating me, and let me put it this way – if he had been any real threat to me dating her, she either would not have told me, or she wouldn't have done it in the first place (I cannot honestly say 100% which it would be). The reason she felt comfortable telling me – was because he wasn't really any sort of romantic or physical prospect for her – but even so, she wanted the attention.

      My point is that you're right, that sometimes – a girl flakes out for real reasons. I once had a girl flake out on a trip to meet me across the country (she lived in another state) saying she suddenly had to much work to do. I did part of what was suggested above and just let it go (even though I was pretty pissed).

      Later, she went out of her way (without me asking anything about it) to travel across the state to a different dance exchange I went to and specifically told me she came down because I was attending, so it wasn't really that she changed her mind about being interested in hanging out with me. However, things didn't really go anywhere with me and her, partially because of one of those "we just didn't connect" kind of things, but also because I was more guarded against getting emotionally involved in being enthusiastic towards someone who had flaked on me before…

      Anyways, I'm rambling. I'm just saying that yes, it *can* happen, but women vastly underestimate how the incredible number of times that flaking really does mean "I just doesn't attention, now that I got it I'm trying to get out of actually following through in a way that makes me feel the least bad about it".

      • S.

        ‘Anyways, I’m rambling. I’m just saying that yes, it *can* happen, but women vastly underestimate how the incredible number of times that flaking really does mean “I just doesn’t attention, now that I got it I’m trying to get out of actually following through in a way that makes me feel the least bad about it”.’

        And you know this because you’re…. a mind reader?

        • Paul Rivers

          How many times does a girl have to go through a routine where she meets a guy, he says he has strong feelings for her, she sleeps with him, he says he’ll call, and he never calls before it becomes apparent that *some* guys who say they want a relationship and that they’ll call don’t really mean it – they’re just interested in getting laid?

          At what point do you realize that the 8th girl who suddenly felt comfortable flirting with you hardcore – but only after she got a boyfriend – is in it for the attention? (Especially when she’s suddenly completely uninterested in flirting after they break up).

          And I’ve had close female friends, as well as girlfriends. A girlfriend told me about a time when she was out with a friend and this guy came over and started talking to them. He was paying more attention to her friend (who was single) than her, and she didn’t like that, so she started flirting with him because she didn’t like how her friend was getting all the attention…despite the fact that she dating me and she had no serious interest in the guy (I say this because I knew her, and if she had had any serious interest she most likely wouldn’t have done it, or she wouldn’t have told me about it).

          If you don’t believe that *some* girls are just in it for the attention, then you’ve never spent much time hanging around girls (just like *some* guys will say practically anything to get laid).

        • MMAALPHA MALE

          Because women effing do it. Genius.

      • Aurelia Verity

        “And as a girl, you don’t *really* understand how many girls are out there looking for nothing but validation attention that they don’t want to lead anywhere.”

        You know, I can understand the argument that as a white, middle class, Kinsey 0, woman I will never fully understand the plight of minorities, or homosexuals or even ever fully relate to a swift kick in the balls, but as a woman I reserve the right to say that I know everything about my own sex.

        I am a woman, I’ve been brought up largely by women, I’ve been in contact with women of all ages, cultures and upbringings since the cradle; and I don’t appreciate being told that I can’t “*really* understand“ female behavior, while a special snowflake such as yourself apparently knows all about them from several, admittedly bad, interactions.

        I assure you, most women know the worst of their gender, and they catch on much, much earlier than men do. That was NOT the point of my post. In the great flirting game there are women who flake on men for a variety of reasons and to prevent this you do what the good doctor ordered, MY point was not to dismiss a flake immediately as insincere (as I, personally, have seen happen) but to give her the benefit of the doubt, since sometimes unforeseen circumstances really work against you. Not to take it a flake personally or assume she was just toying with you but just move on and maybe try again later.

        Women cannot be easily divided into “Nice girls” and “Attention seeking skanks”. In a bar with 10 flirting women, each one may have a multitude of reasons (sometimes very complex) as why she’s there, why she’s flirting and why she may flake. Not all, not even half of these reasons will be for attention seeking reasons you so wish to claim women have. To quote Huey from “The Boondocks": “ All women are not hos! We're talkin' 20… 25 per cent tops”.

        Do women string men along and drop them for selfish reasons? Absolutely that happens; I’ve seen it happen, though only a handful of times. A simple flake, such as a drop in conversation, a date discussed but never firmly established can happen for any reason and you do yourself no favors if you assume the flaky girl is a heartless succubus getting off on the attention.

        Just like your own attitude about yourself can hinder you when you are dating, your attitude towards women can hinder you as well. If you view dating as trying to find one genuine pure heart in a sea of bitchez then you are going to have some trouble. Very few women enjoy hearing how terrible their gender is, how poorly they understand their own motivations and actions and how women have been nothing but awful to you in the past. It makes you sound bitter, jaded and suspicious, which does not promise a good evening.

        • Paul Rivers

          It's interesting, if your post wasn't in response to my post, I would unreservedly agree with like 90% of it. I wasn't saying some of the things you mentioned (I didn't say anything about "attention seeking skanks", or any of that stuff), but if someone had been saying those things by themselves I would agree with the other stuff you wrote..

          You wrote:

          "For some reason guys refuse to believe this, they assume she’s making it up, brushing them off, that she’s dangled them on a string or whatever, but here the thing: I know in the media all girls seem to talk about is dating, but in real life your personal relationship status is only one of the great many things you have to juggle. There’s work, school, family, friends, pets and so many other things that can crap out on you at any moment."

          The point of my post was to say "Yes, you're right, those things do happen, but also – the reason why guys are suspicious when a girl cancels is because of this kind of stuff happens to us all the time".

          "Do women string men along and drop them for selfish reasons? Absolutely that happens; I’ve seen it happen, though only a handful of times."

          This is what I mean about perspective – it depends on what you mean by "string men along". Doing it deliberately, conciously, and manipulatively for more than a day – I agree with you, it happens, but it's fairly rare.

          A girl stringing you along, acting like she's really interested in you so you'll buy her drinks when she already knows there's no possible way she would ever date you? That's not a rarity, it's practically a staple of the bar scene. A girl flirting with you hardcore while she has a long term boyfriend? This happens constantly (and with girls who are actually never, ever going to cheat on their boyfriend or break up with him to go out with you). Whether that's "stringing you along" depends mainly on whether she mentions the boyfriend or "conveniently doesn't mention it" the entire time. The club scene is practically the definition of this kind of stuff – many girls go out with the almost deliberate goal of getting flirted with by guys, dancing sexy, giving out their number – and then never, ever talking or seeing any of those guys again, because "that would be sketchy to date any guy I met in a club".

          Do these only represent 20-25% of the girls out there? I…don't know. I do not have the perspective to say, but as a guy that's the first thing I think of when a girl who I was just having fun with suddenly cancels. That, or after a couple of the "I'm cancelling with some innocent sounding excuse because really I'm mad at you and you have to figure it out". And then some girls are just plain flaky, regardless of the cause.

          I'm sorry, but if you believe that guys have this happen very, very occassionally, then…yes, I don't think you really understand the guy perspective on this topic. Is it a crappy system where any hint that you need to change plans and the guy automatically jumps to conclusions? Yes. But it's not for some made up reason – there is a strong real world correlation between a girl who flirst with you, makes plans, then cancels them always coming down to things never going anywhere with her. A really, really, really strong one. Like 98% of the time. And after a while you realize girls rarely tell you negative things directly (from a girls perspective it's called "polite" or "not hurting someone's feelings"), it's with good cause that you pretty much start to see most "oh, something came up and I can't do it" comments as meaning something else.

          Reading your posts here, I really do think you bring an accurate perspective of how girls see things. As well as other good points – in person I sure as heck don't talk about this stuff on a date. If you do, you're practically creating the situation you're complaining about. I really agree with most of the rest of what you're saying.

          I just disagree that there's not usually good reason to think someone who's flaking out on plans without making specific followup plans isn't really essentially saying "I'm not that interested in hanging out with you". Is it kind of crappy that that's the case? Yes. I agree.

        • MmaAlphaMale

          LOL. I could care less if you could appreciate being told ANYTHING about women. I've slept with over 400 smoking hot women, and I wouldn't have been able to if I didn't know exactly how women think, and that guy was TOTALLY RIGHT.

  • Gman

    Wow your timing with this one couldn't have been more opportune- because last friday I got "flaked" by this girl I met – We talked about meeting up, but an hour before see sends me a text saying she is "really tired, maybe another time"… I was sure that was it, but I still texted back "No prob. Talk to you tommorow" just to play the game.

    The next day I called her and she promtly picked up the phone and we set a date for the evening. Arriving at the dating site, I waited 30 minutes (and now realizing I was going through a "Shrodinger’s date" kind of feeling) and then called her – she said she had "land owner" issues and was on her way… I thought to myself fine, but 30 minutes is the max I was willing to wait!

    Luckly, she arrives after 25 minutes and suprisingly I think it turned out to be a great date in the end! We talked, laughed quite a bit and even danced a little and all in all I think it was good – didn't feel any bad vibes between us nor any signs of bordom or anything like that from her.

    Calling her today – she once again answered almost immediately, athough she did seem a little aloof in her voice. We set another date for this thursday evening so hopefully she won't flake on me again.

    This is so confusing… but I simply march forward and hope for the best, because I like her! 🙂

    • Dr. NerdLove

      OK, let's break this down for a second: she breaks the first date which is unfortunate, but does happen. She answers the phone immediately the next day, agrees to another date, shows up for it, even if she's a late (also: "land owner issues"? That's a new one on me – either as a euphemism or a real thing), takes your call another time and agrees to another date.

      This does sounds like what we in the dating advice business call "a good thing". If you're down to trying to guess the tone of her voice – "a little aloof" is pretty goddamn vague – you're seriously over-thinking it.

      • Gman

        Wow Thanks for the fast reply! Love your site, keep up the great work!

  • Bryant

    Great article, Doc. I've been doing online dating almost exclusively for the last month (OKCupid), and while I've had almost no instances of flakes on the first date, I've had several cases where the first or even second date seemed to go well, but a few days later the woman disappeared. I realize this is a different situation, but it seems related, given that I'm sure it could relate to my not maintaining their interest, or perhaps similar to the phone number situation you describe at the beginning, she later decides she wasn't as interested as when I had her attention in person. I can often tell when it's likely to happen after the fact, but do you have any advice on preventing it from happening in the first place – other than the simple fact that sometimes these things just happen?

  • Esn

    Hey Doc, just a technical request… the little pop-up you have on the right of the screen with all the Twitter & Facebook add-ons is covering up some of the text in your articles for me when I read them (I use low screen resolution). Is it possible to add some sort of "X" button to that thing so I can minimize/close it when I'm reading an article?

    • JD

      Yes, I'd like to see that bastard moved. I am one of those guys, who has 20 or so windows open so I never have my browser maximized.

      Maybe put it at the top/bottom, or scrolling to the left side? A lot of open space over there.

      • Maggie

        I third this. I read the blog from my ipad and that popup is huge, for the size of my screen and covers part of the text.

        • Melinda

          I fourth this – happens to me when I'm browsing on my phone or netbook.

  • James (Thortok2000)

    You skip past the 'wall of silence' and other things that "aren't flaking" because the article is on flaking.

    I get that if you message someone on a personal's site and never get a response, or if you chat for a little bit and then no response, a wall of silence is an 'acceptable' response. But when I get wall of silence I tend to think it's one of three things: 1) I did something wrong, 2) She's just not interested, or 3) I did something wrong. So it's hard to know whether to file the experience under "no big deal" or "I need to fix something." And if I need to fix something, then what do I need to fix? Wall of silence doesn't give much specific feedback.

    Over and over I'll start a conversation with someone, maybe they even message me first, and I don't know if it's my bad conversation skills or social skills or what, but the 'apparent interest level' fades away pretty quickly sometimes. Often I'll judge chances at a friendship or relationship based on 'am I still talking to this person after a week?'

    So I envy the people that are getting at least as far as the flake stage. I get a few dates a year, but getting a second date is the hurdle I haven't gotten past in a long time. And most people I meet don't even make it to the first date stage. =/

    • Christian T.

      Yeah its been happening recently to me way too much. I had one girl say "I'm not flaking on you" to stop talking to me. If I weren't so lucky at cards…

  • David

    Get out of my head Randall! Err, stop reading my heart Dr Nerdlove!

    I kind of had a flake last night. I asked a girl out on Monday (and got a yes), but last night she said that because of finals/end of semester stuff/the fact that we're only going to be around for another few weeks she didn't want to start dating. It really sucked, but I took the advice you've been giving and was very polite about it and made sure I didn't come across as upset. Sucks that we won't get a chance at trying a relationship, but sometimes life turns out like that.

    On the bright side, I handled meeting, flirting, asking her out, and the rejection much better than I used to (and much faster) thanks to your articles, so I can still look back and be happy at my improvements (and know that I'll be ready for the next woman, because I've learned that there will be).

  • Thanks Doc. I had someone flake on my yesterday. After reading this, I see that I handled the situation pretty good. Great tips on avoiding further flakes.

  • The entire premise of this article only proves that women who flake on men without being direct and open about their intentions have brain disorders.

    Whatever happened to being a fucking adult and either going through with what would be a natrual progression of giving someone your numberjust flatly saying your not interested.

    As opposed to

    Giving hints and suggestive terms a man has to decipher that your not interested thereby wasting our time in the first place.

    We've got better things to do than get our hopes up on your little mind games.

  • Danny

    What a good stuff.

    I have a date with her last Friday, She text late in the night to tell me, She was so sorry and want to cancel the date. She promised to call back to explain but still haven't.

    any advice?

  • Lamont

    If you're just honest with a man saying "Sorry but I don't feel that we click." or "I'm sorry but you're just not my type." Guys want direct no bullshit answers. Men have created this world, fought wars, and dealt with harsher things. I'm pretty sure we can handle a girl being straight up with us. You're not hurting our feelings by being direct, that's small shit. Any guy that tells you the opposite needs to man up. I personally respect a female for having the maturity and respect to tell me that she isn't' interested. ' I get the ones who like to inflate their egos, and not respond. So I'll tell these type of females that I'm going to call, and I don't call if she's flaked out on me. I move on to the next woman.

  • Lamont

    Oh yeah I meant to mention, that if something does come up in life and its not a good time for you, just be honest and say so. Guys understand that things happen. Put yourself in the other person's shoes. Then you will see the logic of things. If someone does get upset because life is throwing too much at and you don't have time for dating, who cares?

  • fresno_dude

    All of the comments here have value based on my experience however I have some to add that were not addressed based on the following facts. I met a smoking hot woman whom I pursued. And she responded very positively. However it was awkward since it was mostly by e-mail and some texts. Our one and only phone call ended after only about 10 minutes bc of an excuse she made up and I could tell spiritually she had less of a good impression of me. In fact she insisted she would get back to me. Instead of calling me back she e-mailed me. and she then e-mailed me two more times asking about some details for our plans that were for Saturday or Sunday, not the very nite. She then flaked on meeting me at our professional event. She did not bother to tell me she decided to arrive way after it ended. She knew we had plans for sushi and drinks afterward. She then had the nerve to text me the next day "I need a pick me up"? I responded: "Excuse me?" She responded:" I have a hangover. what happened to sushi". I responded: "I waited for you and when you did not show then I made other plans. I was disappointed." her response was "well, why didn't you call? i came in at 10:30PM (thats like 8.5 hours later than we planned to be there btw) and went out with my friends figuring you made other plans. " I asked her how was her nite. she responded: "Not much into the 20 something black brothers scene." whoa! is what i thought to text that in our profession. anyway, i responded "well maybe tonite you will have better luck. lots to do here. gotta run :)" i even saw her later and ignored her and she just stared at me. She then followed me to lunch two days later at the conference and sat very close to me and my friend." I ignored her. And you know what? Still no apology. nothing. so thats another kind of flake. i admit there are justifications for flaking but she could have just called or emailed to cancel and it would have made all future contact much less awkward. for now, she and I will feel very awkward at social/professional events where we are attending. sad thing is she was the one initiating and perpetuating flirting with me and adding all sorts of social activities to our plans that gave me the red flags of an LA-type wanna be who builds up expectations with unwarranted enthusiasm only to dash one's hopes. so based on experience and growing up in LA, i was prepared bud sadly not surprised. and gentlemen and ladies, she is a 32 years old woman whom i was clear with i just wanted to be friends with. Finally, we had met in person with a spark to be sure between us (it was not in my head) that we nurtured for 3 weeks between e-mail and texts and for some reason she only wanted one phone conversation. Disappointing with a 32 year old professional.

  • Dylan

    why dont people just not care and do it by ear. the no big deal thing will work, dude in your mind the girl should be lucky you asked her out. Your cool, funny, decent looking, she is missing out, ha not you.

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  • Ross Jeffries

    Guys, stop blaming yourselves and overanalyzing everything. Girls flake for two main reasons: they are cowardly (no really, it's true) and they are playing the numbers game. It's all a numbers game. Don't obsess over that "one girl"…no matter how awesome you think she is, she's really not all that…you're just horny or projecting perfection on her. Girls are moody…unless she flat out tells me to stop contacting her…I'll just keep "pinging" her with short messages whenever I feel like it (if I think she's worth it). If it's been a while since she's communicated, I already know she's only good for a roll in the hay. You'd be surprised how many girls who be open for a fling when they are horny, bored, frustrated at their ex, or in between "relationships." Tag that booty, then never contact her again.

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  • Bob

    When a guy likes a girl he's into getting to know her, taking her out, experiencing and bonding emotionally and eventually sex. When a guy likes a girl and she starts flaking, a whole lot of respect goes out the window, it's just all about the sex now.

  • Jay

    The article is pretty spot on. The one thing I disagree with is his advice on how to prevent a flake by flaking on her first thus making her chase you.

    This advice ignores the number one reason why women flake and that is because they are not interested in you and were too cowardly or immature to tell you upfront.

    The whole making her chase you thing is wrong because shes flaking so that she doesn't have to go out with you. It doesn't matter if she flakes or you do because at the end of the day, it will relieve her of the artificial obligation of going out with you.

  • I don't agree with playing mind games or telling lies to trick a girl into being interested. If she flakes, it's because she's a flake who isn't interested. So why would you want her? When you meet the right one, it shouldn't be that hard.

    • I agree with you. I wonder who gave you a thumbs down. I am a woman and I disagree with this article. Both genders like to play mind games for whatever psychological reasons. And yes, some people don't play games, they are just too cowardly to just say "no, they've changed their mind," so they let the radio silence do the talking. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to stoop to their level and play manipulative games to win a date. Whatever time you're spending on the person who isn't interested in you, is time you could be putting towards meeting someone new.

    • penguinman32

      She flakes because she is a woman.
      If you plot flakiness against attractiveness, you will see an exponential relationship.
      If she is really pretty , with a sweet smile, and a laugh like a mountain stream, there is 100% probability of some flakiness.

      What you are really saying is, 'Why pursue a really beautiful woman, when you can have someone practical and less attractive that requires no effort.

  • johan

    When a guy prefers a lady he's into getting to know her, getting her out, suffering from and connection psychologically and gradually sex. When a guy prefers a lady and she begins cracking, a whole lot of regard goes out the screen, it's just all about the sex now.

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  • Now It All Makes Sense, She's A Flake 🙂

  • Sam_93

    Sometimes it's really hard to tell if a girl is flaking or not. I don't get it, It's like one minute she wants to go out with me and the next minute she's practically telling me to get lost, for example i'll explain what has recently been happening to me that put me in this situation.

    It was my birthday, went to my first class and the professor had us work in groups for in class writing, I turn to this cute girl who I asked to be my partner and she recognized me, turns out we were flirting pretty hard when I was at work and she was a customer and we shared a laugh about the coincidence of ending up in the same class. I got her number on that same day after walking her to her next class and my friends running in to me on campus wishing me a happy birthday leading to her giving me a hug wishing me a good birthday.

    With everything going so perfectly on the first day I told myself that nothing could go wrong and that I wasn't in any rush to text to her seeing how much she seemed to like me. It's been about 2 weeks now and we have gone out one time when we skipped a class to sit on a bench and talk for a while then leave campus to go grab a bite to eat. We've been having a nice time seeing each other ever since, and today I asked her out to see a movie for this weekend in person and she seemed delighted to go at first, I walked her to her class and told her I would text her later and she responded with a "sure, text me later today" So as soon as I text her she doesn't know who it is because like I said I told myself there was no rush in texting her right away and eventually forgot to do so in the process of seeing her frequently. She still responds happily and "I ask if she's free Saturday night" with the certainty of getting a "yes" given that she told me she wanted to see a movie this weekend after I asked her in person, then BAM, I get hit with "actually Saturday I don't think I am :/" How do I deal with it? At first I stopped and got extremely confused thinking about it for a good 30 minutes wondering about every possibility whether be it I messed up along the lines of getting to know her these past couple of weeks or if she truly is busy Saturday night. It was even more confusing because she would tell me that I was handsome, hug me, play with her hair while I would say the most useless shit in a conversation, showing all signs of interest etc… So I just decided to ignore the text and not really respond to it. Making a big deal out of it and over thinking will just make it harder for me to not give a shit lol

  • The so called "techniques" of standing someone up or just straight up lying to someone is creepy and manipulative. Most of your articles are good but this is very icky and entitled. Ironic that you claim to work under a feminist framework and then encourage men to use weird tactics to manipulate a woman into going on a date with them.

  • penguinman32

    'I don't accept the 'For whatever reason she is not interested' Or 'She's not that into you' rationale.
    It is not a valid argument.
    It is a mistake to empathize with the decision of a woman when this decision is based on incomplete or limited information about you (she doesn't know you)
    In my experience, a woman will like or dislike you to various degrees on different days, depending on many factors, mostly irrational.
    In my experience, it is better to persist, confidently, slowly and consistently.
    Be a man of stable confident character, plowing steadily through the stormy ocean of 'her feelings'. She can climb on board or drown.

    • enail0_o

      Um, you do realize that feelings are kind of a key component of the value of an interpersonal relationship (a social one, at least, not so much a working relationship), right? If a woman doesn't enjoy interacting with you based on the interaction she has had with you thus far, choosing not to interact with you any further is an extremely rational decision to make. And doubly so when the person she's choosing not to interact with believes that her feelings are a stormy ocean and that listening to them to make choices for which emotions are a critical factor makes her irrational. And triply so when the person she's choosing not to interact with thinks that he's justified in forcing interactions with a woman if he doesn't think her reasons for not wanting to interact with him are sufficiently rational.

      And wow, did that last sentence sound creepy.

    • And the women say: No thanks. We'll drown first.

      Also, boo boo, it is not demonstrating good character to continue to pester a woman who doesn't want to talk to you. That's called being annoying at best and being a frightening stalker at worst.

    • One_True_Guest

      "She can climb on board or drown."

      Or catch a different ship passing by. Or swim to shore all on her own strength.

      My love, you aren't the only fish in the sea, boat in the ocean, sailor at high tide. And she certainly doesn't need you to save her.

    • Wondering_

      In my experience, a woman will like or dislike you to various degrees on different days, depending on many factors, mostly irrational.
      In my experience, it is better to persist, confidently, slowly and consistently.

      Persisting, uncertainly or confidently, quickly or slowly, inconsistently or consistently, when a woman has told you she's not interested and/or to leave her alone is being a stalker.

      And "her feelings" in scare quotes? Really? You realize that relationships are based on feelings, right? Whether someone likes or dislikes you is a feeling. And feelings are irrational. That's rather the whole point. We are neither robots nor Vulcans.

      Also, let me get this straight. The boat, in your stormy ocean metaphor, is a relationship with you? So, if a woman doesn't want a relationship with you she deserves to drown? This line of thought is controlling, abusive, creepy, and scary. I'll let the giant Nopetopus pull me under, thank you very much.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      Wow. Just. . .fucking. . .wow.
      "She's not interested" is not a valid argument. Empathizing with a woman's decision is a mistake. Women ar irrational and will change how they feel about you on a daily basis. So, basically, women are too irrational to make good decisions but you're willing to persistently pursue one anyway, whether she wants you to or not. Dude, you're not the guy on the boat. You're one of the sharks.

  • penguinman32

    Thank you for your replies.
    Context is important. That is why you should Never use text or email to 'pester' her. Do it on the phone, or in person.
    The boat I am describing is actually a very comfortable one, with three beautiful smiling women already sitting on board. They are wearing designer sunglasses and sipping champagne.
    Although we are talking and laughing, I can see a woman flailing about in the ocean, using her own 'strength ' to dog paddle from her last boyfriend who just sank, to the shore guided by astrology and feelings. I am impressed by her efforts, and interested to know more, So I extend my hand and offer a smile. What she does is her choice, and I hope she succeeds. Though as I look to where she is going, I can see that despite her bravery and stubborn determination, it is very likely she will fail and be eaten by sharks. If she says 'No thank you' with an angry scowl I don't take it personally. I simply sit on my boat, with my hand extended, trying not to care too much.

    • Your metaphor is confusing. Are you in a poly relationship with the other ladies on your boat? Not being in a relationship with you means she's going to die? My head hurts.

      And also boo boo, pestering a person who doesn't want to date you by constantly CALLING or SHOWING UP IN PERSON is what we call stalking. And it's also worse than texting or emailing her.

      • jcorozza

        Yeah, really not loving the "dating me is roughly the same as saving your life" thing. That is…many shades of ugh.

    • Conreezy

      I imagined that this rant is posted up on a cork board in your room, pieced together from cut-out letters from magazine articles. You stare at it while meditating in an untucked striped shirt, contemplating your mastery of the Douche Side and whether Costco or Sam's Club has better prices on bulk Axe spray.

      In other words: you are laughable.

    • Is that supposed to be a metaphor or are you trying to say you're in a poly relationship or…?

      I'm sort of missing part of your point here, and if you extend a hand to a woman and she slaps it away…why would you want to know her?

      Are there men in the ocean? Are all the men in boats? I'm just not following your metaphor here.

      Maybe the woman enjoys being eaten by sharks? Maybe she swam out to sea to get eaten by sharks?

      Hmmmm…it's a little bit if a hard metaphor to work with…but, hey, if you're chilling on your yacht with a pair of lovelies, what do you care about the other women in the sea? Drink your champagne, lay in the sun, and let other boaters run shark rescues. If I'm following your metaphor (and I may not be, apologies), it sounds like you're pretty well set up.

      • enail0_o

        Maybe the idea is that she could date one of those beautiful women who are in the boat with him? They seem pretty happy, and if they can afford champagne and designer sunglasses, they could probably show her a good time, so I can see why he might see her as making a foolish mistake to turn it down without even meeting them and seeing if they hit it off.

        • I have so many questions about his metaphor!

          Are they actual sharks or are they metaphor sharks?

          What else is happening on the yacht that makes being eaten by sharks more appealing?

          Are these sharks only eating conventionally beautiful women with designer handbags? Are our average looking women safe from sharks?

          Are there lesbians parasailing over the sharks laughing as they pass over the man yachts and sharks on the way to their island lairs? Are there bisexual women in life rafts behind the yachts being circled by sharks?

          SO MANY QUESTIONS!

          • enail0_o

            Everything in the metaphor is a metaphor, except for the sharks. They are real sharks and are a little confused as to why this metaphor has sprung up around them.

            Ooh, lesbians get island lairs in this metaphor? I'm in!

          • Did you see that tumblr meme that went around a short while ago? It started as someone "proving" why homosexuals weren't part of nature because if you had homosexual island and heterosexual island one would die out?

            And then people jumped on it and started CLOWNING it and basically turned it into a story about how the bisexuals traveled between islands and lived on boats to keep the population up, the asexuals lived above in airships, etc, etc…it was fun watching something that started out as a really dumb homophobic metaphor end up being a hilarious running gag/meme that just kept growing as people expanded the metaphorical world of a dystopia where sexual preferences were segregated.

          • enail0_o

            Oh yeah, I liked that one. Metaphor worlds always go to such good places!

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Speaking of mixed metaphors, this whole thing is turning very Fifty Shades Of Kevin Bacon.

          • I feel like we're watching someone write fan fiction about themselves.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Two words: unreliable narrator.

            Also, yay! I get to be a shark now. She can hold onto my fin and ride while the guy on the boat complains about how women always fall for assholes instead of nice, logical guys like him.

          • Wait, playing with sharks was an option?!
            Yeah I'm gonna do that.

          • Gentleman Johnny
          • jcorozza

            Sharks don't eat shrubbery.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Only if the shrubbery asks first.

    • enail0_o

      Oh, well if you're pestering someone on the phone or in person it's totally okay! And that elaboration of your metaphor is certainly not in the slightest patronizing, sexist or hilariously self-important, and most definitely convinces me that she is making a terrible mistake by foolishly using her own feelings (which is totally the same as relying on patterns in the stars to guide her because feelings are in no way relevant to the question of who she would enjoy being around in the future) to decide that she does not wish to interact further with you. And not dating you is certainly the relationship equivalent of being eaten by sharks through ones' own foolish stubbornness, rather than an excellent and well-justified decision.

      Oh, wait, no, sorry, I meant the opposite of those things. My mistake.

    • eselle28

      It's rare that a description of two extremes makes being eaten by sharks sound like the more appealing option, but apparently it can happen.

      Just because you don't understand someone's criteria for a partner doesn't mean she's relying on nothing more than astrology and feelings. Being single isn't disastrous. Looking for a partner isn't disastrous. Many people who reject partners later go on to find good relationships. And physics knows, dating you (and possibly sharing you with several other women, while having no other partners of her own?) isn't likely to be anyone's saving grace.

      • jcorozza

        If my choices are death by shark or date this guy…I guess I lived a full 29 years?

        • eselle28

          Also, sharks need to eat something I guess. Maybe some seal will get to go on and live a full life.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      Must be tough being so much smarter and enlightened than everyone around you.

  • penguinman32

    It is all a metaphor, even the sharks. The Women on the boat are just friends.

    All these replies are intelligent. I will give you the specific context, Because some seem to be approaching it from the luxury of a ' first world , post feminism, drinking a latte with your bi-sexual psychologist' view point.
    The girl lives in a third-world country. Her yearly income is equivalent to your weekly income. Her last boyfriend was a westerner that promised to marry her after he saved up the money for the plane ticket.
    Her society, and culture expect the man to initiate a relationship, as well as pursue, marriage is also expected.
    Being single is considered disastrous.

    She is incredibly attractive, there are literally hundreds of guys from all over the world contacting her via facebook, as well as in everyday life.
    She has to ignore and reject men daily, just to function normally.
    She is attracted to confident, brash, westerners with tattoos and bad attitudes.
    She is under attack, constant bombardment from the full spectrum of guys.
    She is flakey, hesitant, cautious.

    • Wondering_

      That is not a specific context. That is a generalized imagining of your own brain.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      OK, Sparky, this is a good time to back it up and take a look at what you just said. You are one of those literally hundreds of guys she has to reject to function normally. You've actually doubled down on the creep factor by explaining the situation more clearly. You're being persistent in the face of rejection by someone half a world away who you've never me tin person who has already (wisely) showed that she's not interested in being a mail order bride. These other two women on the boat, are they "rescued" from the Third World, too?

      If everything you say is true, clearly she has plenty of marriage options at home and has opted against them. She's clearly more aware of her own culture's attitudes than you are and prefers dealing with them to being someone's bought and paid for concubine, removed from her support group and the ability to work for her own needs. I've had more than one ex who was an attractive starving artist and let me tell you; its pretty transparent when a guy is trying to buy a woman and make her totally dependent on him. You and your seafaring harem with the designer glasses sound like a pretty good example of that particular breed of bottom feeding sociopath, although I have only the metaphor to go on. I hope she doesn't drown but better to drown free than sunbathe as someone else's property.

      • jcorozza

        Also, can you imagine if ALL of those hundreds of guys decided, "fuck her 'feelings' on the matter, I'm going to keep calling/texting/seeing her anyway". She would have SO MANY STALKERS.

        • Gentleman Johnny

          Yeah, but those guys are all sharks. . .or the shore. . .or stars or something. He's the dude on the yacht, clearly above all those he surveys, able to offer a hand or chum the waters at his whim depending on whether or not the peons beneath him are nice enough.

    • eselle28

      This woman is a person. Like you, she has thoughts and opinions and desires and feelings. She has options for what she wants to do with her life, even if they're limited by cultural concerns and some may be disastrous.

      If she chooses to be single, then she chooses that particular disaster instead of a different one. If she chooses to be with a confident, brash Westerner with tattoos and a bad attitude, that's her choice as well. Frankly, I suspect many men of that description make better partners than you, with your condescending attitude, would.

      As for her not knowing you…well, if she doesn't, then you don't know her very well, either. Adding yourself to the pestering hordes doesn't make you a savior. It makes you a creep and a stalker. I think you'd do well to focus on your own issues rather than making someone else out to be a martyr.

    • One_True_Guest

      Okay I'm confused on multiple levels now:

      1. Is this another hypothetical or the real situation?
      2. If this is the real situation are you truly that oblivious to the fact that you are one of those hundreds of guys contacting her? And that calling her and seeing her even after she's rejected you is actually the definition of "constant bombardment"? Or are you saying you are one of those guys?
      3. Or is it that you're from her third-world country and one of her own people? And if so, why do you refer to it as "her" society, and not "our"?
      4. And if so is that why you say you can see her in person to bother her even though she's rejected you? Because that bit otherwise really confuses me if you are one of the western Facebook dudes.
      5. Regardless of all this, are you really so arrogant as to assume that somehow you are better than all the other guys out there chasing her, that you are meant to be with her despite her refusing you, and do you really think that none of the other guys think exactly the same way you do?
      6. Lastly why do you want to be with someone who you generally find contemptible in thought and action? Why are you investing so much energy in a person who you don't seem to have much respect for (who in your opinion uses emotion over reason and is silly enough to believe in astrology) by calling her and seeing her in person after she's told you she's not interested? Wouldn't it make more sense to find someone you actually do respect and who wants you? Isn't that a more worthwhile expenditure of time and energy? Or are you mostly just interested in saving someone and she fits the bill in your imagination?

  • penguinman32

    Esselle, Well you know me so well after five minutes , I'm guessing all men are the same .

    My experience with Confident, Brash guys with a bad attitude, involves selfishness, violence, murder and prison.
    But, they are cocky and exciting at first, love to talk about themselves, so good luck ! just remember if the world is always against him, it isn't your fault.

    This topic is about Flaking and Women.
    And your points are exactly correct. You can't be one of the pestering hordes.
    A Flake is not a rejection. You should treat it as no big deal.
    I have had Flakes nearly every single time when meeting new girls: Ignored texts, missed dates, cancelled dates, rescheduled dates.
    Once; a girl just didn't show up to the date. Texted me later with no excuse, just 'sorry, couldn't make it'.

    Take my original point to heart. until she says 'No', don't assume what she is feeling.

    Everybody who has been alive more than 5 years, knows that dating women, involves subtle conflicting signs that can be difficult to interpret.

    Sometimes, a woman who really likes you is the one who is ignoring you.
    They think they can communicate by thinking, and often won't use the power of spoken words to convey messages.

    Guys: get the 'Yes' or 'No'.

    (Note: if it is a 'No', but then she smiles, and the next time you see her she smiles at you again, this could be a 'maybe')

    • Gentleman Johnny

      Dating girls (or boys) involves subtle, conflicting signs. Dating adults means they can use their words. If someone's level of interest changes radically on a daily basis, I'm better off finding someone who's genuinely interested with the limited time I have on this planet.

    • So, if I'm not mistaken, are you suggesting there's a cultural context (iow, non-western context) that we are missing?

      Because I'm also curious if, based on your metaphor, you live in a country where westerners coming in and promising to marry local girls is an issue. To my knowledge, that's sometimes an issue around US military bases, and can cause problems both locally and with the soldier's command, as well as turning local gender relations ugly.

      This is a serious question, by the way, you've dipped a lot of this in metaphor, but I really am trying to determine if you're coming from a non-western cultural viewpoint and if you're suggesting that your culture is inherently different from western cultural dating and norms, especially in regards to enthusiastic consent given your "sometimes no means yes" part at the end, something which even many who look to conservative views of relationships would reject out of hand.

      If you're interested in having a discussion I'm open to having an honest discussion just because I'm now interested in where you're coming from with this.

    • jcorozza

      "Well you know me so well after five minutes , I'm guessing all men are the same ."

      So…you can say that women are all overly emotional irrational flakes, but men are all individuals?!

      "don't assume what she is feeling"

      If she tells you what she is feeling, listen. Do not pretend like she is feeling something else because you decided that for her.

      "Sometimes, a woman who really likes you is the one who is ignoring you. " Some people of all genders do this. If you don't like this behavior, don't date those people.

      "Note: if it is a 'No', but then she smiles, and the next time you see her she smiles at you again, this could be a 'maybe'"

      No. No no no no. This is some rapey shit right here.

      • penguinman32

        Of course not all women are the same.

        It may be socially acceptable to use words like 'Rapey' to make rape sound a little bit funny.
        But as someone who is disgusted by the thought, I don't appreciate being associated with this crime due to my gender. Nor basically being called a potential rapist, stalker, or various other criminal psychopath.

        Don't talk to me. Don't come anywhere near me.

        Can you understand how offensive it is for you to bandy about terms like stalker and rape, to any man you don't particularly like ?.
        Some men are socially awkward, they have struggled all their lives with socializing, they have never even kissed a girl, they dream of loving someone and being loved.
        The first time they ever approach you, you will call them a 'rapey stalker'

        My intentions and the intentions of any man should be, to work out if the woman is interested, even though she flakes.

        Because, unfortunately, not every woman is an independent, emotional island living on the top of a mountain doing yoga and reading various books about how 3 million years of evolution did not infact discriminate between the sexes in any way. ..and the true purpose of a woman is to inseminate herself with a syringe and live alone, giving direct answers to questions in an autistic manner, with a robot voice.

        • jcorozza

          This has nothing to do with being funny, or your gender. It has to do with your "her no might really be a yes" line of thinking. That is IGNORING THE WORDS SHE IS SAYING. If a woman says no, and you decided that she doesn't mean it, that is exactly how rape happens.

          Dude, some women are socially awkward, too. This does not make it okay for anyone, male, female, whatever, to ignore a "no". Or an "I'm not interested". When those words are ignored, and the person continues to pursue, that is stalking. If it happens in a physical context, it's assault or rape. Don't give me this socially awkward BS.

          Here's an idea. If she flakes, ask ONCE if she's interested. Don't guess, or assume (it's almost like you're not using your words, either!) If she says no, Leave. Her. Alone. If she says yes, THEN you can pursue her.

          You might also want to consider that women aren't "flaking" on you. They are rejecting you or staying the hell away because you do not respect their boundaries, and it's clear that you do not. That's what being a stalker is. And that's what a rapist does, do, except the boundaries are more physical. The line of thinking is the same.

          In order to respect your boundaries, now that I have clarified why that line of thinking is "rapey", I will not be responding directly to you.

        • One_True_Guest

          It's not you approaching her that makes people concerned. Of course you are more than free to approach women and ask them out. It's you approaching a woman AFTER she's rejected you. And insisting to others that all they have to do is keep approaching the same woman over and over until she changes her mind. Insisting that that is the true way to win a woman, that all women flake and don't know their own minds so the only thing to do is to is to keep hounding her until she says yes. Constantly approaching the same woman who has rejected you is actually the definition of stalking. Of course you are free to ask out a woman. It's the insisting she doesn't know her own mind and you can convince her despite what she wants to eventually say yes to you that we feel is inappropriate.

          Also what's with this odd extreme? There aren't just two kinds of women out there: women who are flakes who want to be with men, and women who aren't flakes who want to be alone for all time. There are many many women out there who want a partner but also don't play games and know their own minds and when they reject a man it isn't rejecting all men, it's simply rejecting that one particular man because she doesn't like him.

        • Gentleman Johnny

          It may be socially acceptable to use words like 'Rapey' to make rape sound a little bit funny.
          But as someone who is disgusted by the thought, I don't appreciate being associated with this crime due to my gender. Nor basically being called a potential rapist, stalker, or various other criminal psychopath.

          No one's making it funny. No one's associating it with your gender. They'e associating it with your "no means maybe" attitude. We just banned one of the more persistent voices of "don't listen to what women say." Its like you got sucked into the void in the comments left by him.

        • Wondering_

          But as someone who is disgusted by the thought, I don't appreciate being associated with this crime due to my gender. Nor basically being called a potential rapist, stalker, or various other criminal psychopath.

          Then don't say "no means maybe." That is what rapists and stalkers say. And you said it right here in black and white.

          This has nothing to do with your gender. This has to do with the words you are typing for everyone to read. Your attitudes are that of a stalker and rapist. Everything you say here makes that clearer and clearer. You dig a deeper hole every time you write.

          I say it again: Your attitudes are that of a stalker and rapist.

  • penguinman32

    Hi, thanks for the input and opinions.

    I am a westerner in a western country, Australia. The internet has made it easy to share our daily lives with anyone in the world as if they could be living in the same street.
    The girl in the other country may be educated and independent, speak english and have a life. But, the approach to relationships, is like the 1920's, and being happily married is not a shameful goal, nor is it considered wrong for a woman to like the colour pink.
    I think they are also less cynical, and suspicious and are often mislead, walked-over by western men whose social skills have been sharpened by a liberal feminist society.
    There also seems to be a lack of sarcasm,..saying something and meaning something else.

    Anyway, ..about flaking.
    I think It happens everywhere.

    • jcorozza

      " and being happily married is not a shameful goal, nor is it considered wrong for a woman to like the colour pink"

      Um, these are all true in Western culture, too…

      Flaking happens everywhere….with men, women, children, old people, non-binary people… please stop assuming this is gender-specific.

    • enail0_o

      Okay…so you think that because she doesn't feel shamed about wanting to be married (which, I'll note, is not the same thing as her wanting to be married. Even in a culture where something is heavily encouraged, there will always be people who choose not to do it) and because she's not "considered wrong for liking the colour pink," by which I assume you mean something like "more closely adheres to and encourages a particular form of femininity," that means that she must want to marry you and is clearly being irrational by choosing to do otherwise??

      Has it not occurred to you that there are in fact many men out there, many of whom might be interested in marrying a woman who likes the colour pink, and that she has other options than to marry a condescending dude who thinks he's some sort of wondrous savior and knows better than she does what would make her happy (but who, admittedly, does bring some pretty amusing metaphors to the table), and that it could actually be a supremely rational choice on her part to go for basically anyone else, regardless of what you think of them?

      And have you considered the possibility that if she is so feminine, flakey and hesitant, she probably feels pressured not to reject people too directly (because that is often considered rude and aggressive for women), and therefore is being flakey and hesitant not because she doesn't know what she wants, but because she wants you to leave her the fuck alone and is trying to politely and indirectly give you the message, as women are generally expected to do, and you're just so amazingly arrogant that you refuse to pick up the hint?

      • penguinman32

        Yes, I considered that she is rejecting me.

        It is super easy for a girl to 'unfriend' somebody on Facebook.

        I'm guessing she hasn't because I am intelligent, handsome and mostly ignore her.

        • enail0_o

          Either you're ignoring her or you're consistently persisting, make up your mind.

          • penguinman32

            mostly ignoring,
            it is the same as consistently persisting.

            It lives in the grey area between yes and no, next to maybe.

          • enail0_o
          • Gentleman Johnny

            These words! They mean things! That's not a reply, its a collection of words taken hostage and lined up for a ransom photo.

          • Robjection

            You just reminded me of this.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      Yeah, its easy to share your life online. Its even easy to flirt with someone online who's thousands of miles away that you've never met. Don't mistake that for being the same thing as being in (or even interested in) a relationship. This woman is in a country with a different culture and whether she's not interested in you because she's a good match for it or a bad one (I'm not quite clear on that), she's not interested. You are one of the hundreds of guys she has to dodge. Now it may be you haven't risen quite to the level of admiral of the douche canoe armada yet so she's being nice. Fine. What makes you think she isn't being that way with a dozen or so of those hundreds of guys?

      You can't possibly be so un-self aware as to not realize that if a guy promising to get her out of the country just flaked on her and left her "swimming with sharks" that YOU offering to do the same looks like an invitation to take a fall again. . . assuming that's what she even wants in the first place. I'm sure you look great from your perspective. Donald Trump looks great from Donald Trump's perspective. From her perspective you are just another (potentially predatory) Internet face making impossible promises. If she's not cynical and suspicious of you, she should be, not because you in particular are necessarily a bad guy (although also that) but because any bad guy would have basically the same interactions with her and there's no way to differentiate until she's already in a bad position.

      "I think they are also less cynical, and suspicious and are often mislead, walked-over by western men whose social skills have been sharpened by a liberal feminist society. " Again. . .just. . .wow. She's on the Internet, dealing with hundreds of guys but she's too naive to avoid being taken advantage of by Westerners like you. Do you need an oxygen supply because the air's to thin up on that high horse?

      Hang up the metaphorical phone, walk away from the non-metaphorical screen, get some fresh air and go meet people with an actual interest in you.

    • eselle28

      You know, you're a Western man too, by your own admission. Seems like the ethical thing for you to do in this case is not to risk contaminating this supposed earnest, naive, exotic flower with you evil Western ways. Oh, right. I've read this one before, and the rest of the claptrap is about how you alone are an honest man who can truly care for a woman if only you lived in this one's country rather than being surrounded by feminist yoga addicts.

      It's funny how so much MRA rhetoric ends up being as hateful toward men as toward women.

      • Gentleman Johnny

        who can truly care for a woman if only you lived in this one's country. . .
        Naaah, that would require that he make the effort to be together rather than her doing it. I notice a distinct lack of him offering to get a hotel room for a week or a weekend to see her culture (and her) first hand.

        • penguinman32

          Hey, I will see her, if she is interested.
          And I will know if she's interested the next time we talk.
          And I will know if she wants to talk, the next time she contacts me.
          And she will contact me when she feels like it.

          She is a woman with many options, a nice voice, and a laugh that sounds like a small waterfall spilling over rocks deep within an enchanted forest.

          • Admit it, you're just trying out your open mic night free verse on us.

      • penguinman32

        eselle,
        I have made it perfectly clear I am not interested in your opinions,
        but you continue to pester me with yours.

        It's starting to creep me out a bit.

        I feel I have made the correct decision and you will just have to respect that.

        • Wondering_

          Sounds like eselle hit a sore spot since she's the only one you've said you don't want to hear from any more.

          • jcorozza

            Eh, not the only one…

          • Wondering_

            Oh, you're right. I misread his comment to you since it's the internet and you can't actually come anywhere near him.

            So, two sore spots!

          • jcorozza

            Oh, I was confused by that, too. Also…even if I knew where this person was, I would use that information on;y to make sure I stayed as far away as possible.

  • penguinman32

    Okay, thank you all.
    Let me just point out where you are going wrong.

    In this specific case, I have not had a No, or a Yes.
    It is a 'Sorry, I probably can't'. To which I reply 'no problem, maybe some other time'

    Also, when I say, 'No can mean Yes', and ' No can mean a Maybe'. I am talking about 'No' To coffee, and 'No' to Sushi specifically.

    The problem with your over-zealous binary attitude to life is that you are falsely equating, 'No' To going Ten pin bowling, with a 'No' To sexual intercourse.

    Now, I will make this very clear so hopefully it sinks in;

    The word 'No' is a general word that can be applied to a vast array of situations and contexts.

    If a 'Not sure now, maybe some other time' to a green tea by the river, is being compressed to a 'No' to green tea by the river…Then subsequently juxtaposed to a 'No to sexual intercourse'
    Then this discussion can never be reasonable.

    If a car salesman, tells a customer, 'Are you sure I can't change your mind about this car ?' He is a RAPIST. Because No means No.

    If I tell my pet Dog, 'No', and then he subsequently jumps up on the couch. It is a RAPIST. Because No mean No.

    Your opinions have been twisted and distorted beyond recognition by a society obsessed with litigation and fear.

    I can assure you, the next time I ask a girl, 'Hey, would you like to have sexual intercourse ?', as the scenario typically goes, and she subsequently says, ' no thank you' I will not insist.
    Also, in this particular case I would advise against insisting on a 'Maybe'.

    This is because the significance of sexual intercourse is greater than the significance of ten-pin-bowling.

    Upon much reflection, I am familiar with the difference between the word 'No' in the car salesman scenario, and the word 'No' in the potential rape scenario.
    Even though it is the same word.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      Yep, that must be it. We're far too simplistic. Its nothing to do with the incredibly creepy way you phrased everything so far. When you're pursuing someone and they say "I'm not interested", back the fuck off. No, persistence is not going to change disniterest to interest. It might get someone to go out with you in the hopes that you'll go away but that's not a victory. Sure as FUCK, you should take a graceful no from someone half a world away who's already dealing with dozens of assholes like you who don't know when the fuck to quit.

      Yes, if someone flakes on you once or twice but continues to express interest, that may just be flaking but seriously, dude, no means no even when its not "significant". By all means, call me an oversensitive, fear driven feminazi, though. Every clueless guy like you in the dating pool just makes me look better by comparison.

      And yes, in America (and Australia too, don't sell me that line of crap) a lot of times you won't get a straight no because the woman in question doesn't want to deal with a scene when you (general you, guys she's dealt with before) flip your shit in public because she dared to not be interested. If anything, the experiences Aussie women have shared with me is that Aussie guys are even worse than American ones at taking no for an answer. You may not do that but get a clue, that doesn't fucking matter because the woman you're hitting on doesn't have magic spider senses that tell her you're different. Ignoring that context only hurts you and akes you sound really not different at all.

      • penguinman32

        Yes you are correct.
        That kind of persistence does not create interest, especially with the swearing.

      • Georgia_D

        I'm from Australia. No means no here as well. Creeps appear to be pretty universal too unfortunately.

  • mtnthc

    Lol, just got flaked on, oh well, her loss 🙂

  • Ben Shaw

    so your advice on flake damage control/prevention is to return her lie of being interested in you with a lie of your own. you need help and most importantly you need jesus christ.