So both of today’s questions involve interracial dating, a subject that couldn’t POSSIBLY go wrong if and when I accidentally say something stupid!
Now this is going to be a loaded topic, so I’m warning folks in advance: be cool in the comments. Or else.
And if I happen to shove my foot in my mouth, I apologize in advance.
So let’s go:
Dear Dr Nerdlove,
My e-mail is about race.
Just to get it out of the way…I’m a black guy
I grew up in a household where love was colorblind and race shouldn’t be a deciding factor in whether you love someone. I’m proud that my parents taught me that. I realize that not everyone grew up the way I did and were taught that people of different races are bad in one way or another.
I live in New York, specifically Long Island—from what I can tell a very liberal place. I’ve started online-dating and joined both OKCupid and Match.com. Through the countless female profiles I’ve read, I’ve noticed that some women prefer to date within their race. I’ve been taught that this is ok, it’s preference. But now, I’m starting to wonder why it is “ok”? There is a part of me that thinks that when someone puts that on their profile they’re inherently racist. I know it’s a bold statement, but it’s the way I feel. Now I understand, some people may not be serious about that or they think it might interfere with their relationship with their parents if the parents aren’t comfortable with it. But why isn’t it viewed as at least slightly racist, if not weird, if you don’t want to date people outside your race?
I know this a loaded question. But I’m hoping the great doctor can share his insight on this matter.
Can’t Think Of A Cool Name
Funny thing about dating: it’s not a democracy. Much like how we don’t get to insist that women aren’t allowed to screen guys on online dating sites, we don’t get a say in what other people find attractive. If you’re a skinny emo dude and the woman whose dating profile you’re checking out says she prefers big burly biker types… well, you’re shit out of luck. Go find someone who wants what you have. Some folks find Idris Elba to be sex on legs, others prefer Michael Fassbender. That’s how it goes. The genitals want what the genitals want.
To be perfectly frank, some of it may not be about attraction. Nobody’s denying that there may be a racial – or even xenophobic - tinge to it: some folks will just straight up prefer certain groups – ethnic, religious or cultural – over others for any number of reasons beyond the aesthetic. They may prefer the shared values within their group, which is why some Christians prefer to date other Christians. They may feel a duty to their culture, as many Orthodox Jews do. They may have had a bad experience with someone who was X and this has put them off dating people who are X, preferring to date people who are Y or Z instead because it doesn’t have the same emotional stigma.
Some may prefer not dating outside their race because they feel that they couldn’t – or simply don’t want to – handle the societal baggage that can come with interracial dating, even in large, liberal enclaves. Others may feel as though the people who are interested in them are fetishizing them because of their race rather than seeing them as a person – witness the number of men with “yellow fever” who prefer to date Asian women because of perceived stereotypes about “Asian” culture.
Can it be that they’re just straight-up racists? Sure, it’s entirely possible; there are racists out there on dating sites, same as anywhere else. Hell, one of these days, I’ll have to talk about my accidental date with the white supremacist from Plenty Of Fish. But you can’t just dictate what or whom people are and aren’t allowed to be attracted to – even if it’s through social pressure by saying that people who don’t want to date X are anti-X-ists.
We’re not mind-readers and barring other clues (posing in front of a swastika, Aryan nation slogans in her profile, ironic Hitler mustache tattoo, her “Most Private Thing I’ll Admit To” involves being part of a breeding program to create a master race) sometimes you just have to assume that they like what they like.
Good luck.
Hey Doctor,
So I’m an asian geek having trouble finding a girl. I pretty much grew up in Canada and I have a pretty multicultural circle of friends so, I don’t want to limit my dating pool to just my race. The problem is, varying from “I just don’t see you that way” to straight and blunt “I’m not into asian guys,” girls seem to have their types and they can cripple you immensely. Maybe it’s a personality problem, maybe not but doc, I don’t know if this is a familiar subject but can you school me about interracial relationships and where a good spot would be where I can have better luck?
Thanks,
Secret Asian Man
It can be tough sometimes. Like I told Can’t Think of A Cool Name, some folks have a type they’re into and types they’re not into. Sometimes you don’t really know whether you fit their type until you just straight up ask ‘em out.
It all depends on what you’re looking for and how you’re going about finding and approaching these women. If you’re just going to bars and taking the shotgun approach – going up to any women that you find attractive and starting a conversation – yeah, you might have some issues. You’re more likely to run into people who are into a limited rage of types and are looking for that type and that type only. Sometimes you can tweak their interest – be the exception if you will – but that can take effort you may not want to invest and experience you may not have.
First, a caveat: if you’re a minority interested in interracial dating, you’re going to have better luck in larger, more multicultural cities. A larger population means a larger pool of single people to choose from in general, and the more cosmopolitan the population, the more likely you are to find people open to interracial dating.
There are dating websites that specialize in interracial dating – hell, there’re dating websites that specialize in just about any variable you can think of – so you might want to check those out. Also, the larger city you live in, the greater the odds that there will be social meet-and-greets specifically for interracial dating. These are some options you might want to explore.
Some of the best advice I have comes from my friend Travis, who has more experience in these matters: In general, if you want to maximize your chances of meeting someone who’d be interested in interracial dating… well, it’s more or less the same thing you’d do if you’re interested in meeting more people in general: go out and find groups that share your interests, ones with a multiethnic makeup. Get to know folks there, let them get to know you and how awesome you are and make some friends.When you meet someone who interests you, chat ‘em up. Pour on the charm. Flirt a little. Same as you would anybody else you were interested in.
Sometimes you’re going to get rejected… but this is going to happen regardless of whether you’re looking for an interracial relationship or not. Sometimes it may be because she’s not attracted to Asian dudes, sometimes it may be because she’s not into you as a person, sometimes it may be because she’s just not into dating anyone right now. Risking rejection is part of the price of dating, full stop. You just have to keep soldiering on.
A word of warning: I mentioned dudes with “yellow fever” in my response to Can’t Think Of A Cool Name’s letter, but there are women who fetishize race as well. Anyone interested in interracial dating runs the risk of encountering people – male and female – who are interested in interracial dating because they’ve fetishized the race of the people they’re attracted to.
At first, it can be appealing: after all, you’re not just a person, you’re also a piece of meat and sometimes it can be fun to let yourself be used. But people who fetishize race aren’t interested in you as a person, they’re interested in what they think you represent… they’re not into you so much as a collection of stereotypes that resemble you. Men are less likely to encounter this than women, but it does happen. Ultimately, you want to date someone who loves you for you, not the idea of what you are “supposed” to be… because the moment they realize you’re a person and not this being they wish you were, they’re off to the next appealing bundle of pre-conceived notions
Good luck.
Do you have any advice or insight for the letter writers? Let them know in the comments section.
Of course you can't dictate who people are attracted to, but anyone who says they wouldn't date outside of their "race" is racist. It's that simple.
Calling those people "racist" assumes (at least in my mind) that they find prospective partners within their own race to be somehow superior to anyone outside their race or that they think anyone outside their own race is somehow inferior. Unless someone outright says that or demonstrates in some other way that they believe that, I don't think I'd call racism so quickly.
You don't have to date outside your own race (or within it for that matter) just so other people will be comfortable.
You can date whoever you want – but a statement that "I prefer to date within my race" is participating in a cultural pattern of viewing people of other races as Others.
"Unless someone outright says that or demonstrates in some other way that they believe that, I don't think I'd call racism so quickly. " Except that's not how racism works in this country. It's rarely outright.
I have the same reaction as you, Amber, to men who say they only date redheads. It's kneejerk. Fortunately, my logic intervenes and basically says what the Doctor says above: You don't know why they prefer what they prefer, and it's a lot more nuanced than just "racist."
It isn't all inherently racist. Take it from me, a dude in the South.
Outside of something like a preference for redheads (which is a matter of preference already well outlined by the Good Doctor), there's also the people "outside of the dating profile", so to speak. They're the baggage that comes with a person. Parents, friends, family, co-workers, so on and so forth. Being in the South, while racism isn't anywhere near as rampant as it used to be, its still here, and I can tell you that interracial relationships among some of my friends have issues because of these people. Those in the relationship may not be racist, but you can't always count on those who are outside of it to stay their idiocy or poor judgment.
Yes but that's not an excuse. I fail to see how going along with the prejudices that you're family/friends hold makes you any better. It's participating in racism even if you don't think that you are racist.
"I fail to see how not risking social ostracism is any different from perpetuating racism." Like it or not, but the opinions, beliefs, and actions of our family and friends *do* influence us, and you're going to find the idea of spending time with someone cool less appealing if it means everyone else (or even just some other people) gives you hell over it.
And, no, "Ditch your racist friends" isn't a good response either, because there's still a penalty there.
I'm not saying its easy, or that you are obligated to do it. There are not easy answers. What I am saying is that its racist. It's difficult not to be racist, and we are all going to make mistakes. But its still racism and calling it out is the first step.
Amber, just thought I'd tell you that I have a total commenter crush on you. You bring intelligence and great dialogue here like nothing else, and while I'm usually a lurker, I love reading what you have to say! Gotta de-lurk and start saying stuff more often here, myself.
Thanks Charle! You just made my day =D I'm usually a lurker too but decided to comment on this one.
Hypothetical case: A woman is willing to consider men of all races, or at least, such is her strongly held belief about herself. But, the overt traits that attract her are the following: thin, tall-ish, dark hair, bearded, cosmopolitan in dress and manner. Not having these traits is not by any means a deal-breaker, but she gravitates towards men who exhibits all or most of these traits, and as she is deemed typically attractive, it is easy for her to attract these kinds of men. The ones who fit this bill seem mostly to be white men, though with the occasional non-white thrown in, judging by her dating racial track record. Is she a racist, for, for example, not having an eye out for short, beardless, muscular men?
Let me just point out I'm very sympathetic to your argument, but I'd like to probe the limits of it operationalizability. (made that word up, I think), my concern here being that I don't think we can really disentangle race from the other things that attract us to people without a deliberate effort to stifle what we may most often gravitate towards, only for the sake of not being a casual racist in our preferences. Physical traits obviously overlap pretty frequently with racial identifiers (and are in fact the overt basis for racial difference), so unless you base all dating on non-physical elements of attraction, there will always be an element of race at play.
It isn't, "going along with the prejudices". That was just reading what I said wrong. What was it? What I said meant that those in interracial relationships get out of them or avoid them altogether because that baggage is just going to make things hell. They try to save themselves the grief.
I think there's a subtle difference between it being racist and it being not racist.
"I wouldn't date anyone outside of my race" implies that even if they found someone of a different ethnicity attractive, they wouldn't be willing to date them solely because of that.
But then there are people who are just really attracted to qualities of people of certain ethnicities– whether it be skin, hair, facial shape, or a combination of any of them. This is just what they're attracted to.
OK – I agree with you – but the people in your second category aren't the ones saying they prefer to date within their race on a dating profile.
You're probably right.
I'm caucasian, and would date someone I found attractive, regardless of ethnicity.
However, I strongly favor white men with dark hair, so if I were on a dating site, I might put "white/caucasian" on my ethnicity/appearance preferences in the hope of narrowing down prospective men to my imagined ideal. For me, it wouldn't mean "White or GTFO", it would just mean "these are my preferences, so if you fit these, you have a good chance with me."
But that's just me. I have no idea if other people use it so loosely, or really do mean, "This or go away."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
I really like this video explaining this difference between the "what you did/said was racist" and "you are racist". I think this is where some of the misunderstanding is coming from.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't know shy DNL is beating around the bush on this one. Racism is discriminating one people solely on the base of their race. Sure, this is a democracy, and you are allowed to date whoever you like- there is no such thing as dating police, obviously. It is foolish to think, however, that you are not hurting people when you let them know that the reason why their dating pool is so limited is because of their skin color or the facial features of their ethnic group. Calling someone racist is not a big deal. I don't get why people are so freaked out by it. I also don't get why you have to act on your racism to actually be called a racist. Like, how is a picture of Hitler going to be better than outright saying you don't like people from a certain race? That's just silly-buns.
Ok, loaded question=equals loaded comments. But race is a physical attribute just like being tall, short, skinny, curvy, burly, brown hair, green eyes, whatever. And we, as people, tend to have certain physical attributes we are initially attracted to. But does that make every person who isn't attracted to EVERYONE a racist? No, not really.
I'm not attracted to guys shorter than me. I'm a tall female and this severely limits my dating pool but, even when the guy is awesome, the sexual interest just isn't there. But then again, I'm also not attracted to effeminate men or pretty boys either. *Shrug*. Doesn't mean these aren't great people but as DNL put it "the genitals want what the genitals want". For example, my best friend is a guy who is shorter than me. We have amazing emotional and intellectual chemistry. And I have 0 interest in him sexually, even though we are so compatible otherwise.
Now, I will say straight up that this means I'm almost never attracted to Asian guys or Indian guys, mostly cause of height discrepancies. This doesn't mean I think their races are somehow inferior, it's just a preference in regards to sexual attraction.
Now, putting it on a dating profile…well…they may be racist, but it's probably more of a preference. Religion is another strong preference on dating profiles but if someone says they are Christian and only want to date other Christians, should we automatically assume they hate Jews and Muslims? Mmm…probably not…it's most likely that their faith is a central part of their life and they want someone to share that with them.
I've dated interracially before. It's really hard. And, as a white girl dating a black guy, you know who got the most crap about it? Me. And not from my friends, but from his. It's not what ended things but that constant feeling of unwelcome when I was around his friends didn't help matters. So I understand why people may choose not to rock the societal boat, because standing up to your family and friends is so much harder than standing up to strangers in the world. But, if you really like someone, then you fight for it. I just think that dating profiles do not give anyone a clear understanding of a person's motivations so perhaps we shouldn't rush to judgement of a person as a whole based on a dating preference.
Happy Heated Discussing!!!
"Now, I will say straight up that this means I'm almost never attracted to Asian guys or Indian guys, mostly cause of height discrepancies. This doesn't mean I think their races are somehow inferior, it's just a preference in regards to sexual attraction."
My (Taiwanese) dad is 6'3". His whole family is tall – my male cousins range from 6'2" to 6'8". They tend to turn heads when they visit America. ^_^ Could you ever picture yourself dating a tall Asian man? (Not a judgmental question, I am actually curious.)
Absolutely.
No, it's SO not the same thing. You see, what your post implies is that not being attracted to latinas is the same thing as not being attracted to people with a big nose. When you say you don't want to date people with big noses, you are solely focusing on one facial feature. When you say you don't want to date people from a certain race, you are writing off a percentage of the population on the base of race. That means that you are attaching certain behavior and stereotypes to people solely on the base of their ethnicity. Big, HUGE, difference. Big noses are simply facial features that are not socially attached to behavior or stereotypes. Race is, unfortunately, commonly viewed as a defining factor in behavior. This thought pattern is WRONG. Also, it is really isolating for minorities because while a majority is not affected by not being attractive to people of other races since their dating pool is not severely diminished, for a minority to experience racism in the dating world seriously cuts down on the variety of people that they have access to.
To Secret Asian Man: there are a lot of stereotypes associated with the Asian-American/Asian-Canadian male – uncool nerdiness, unassertive, shy, awkward, emotionally crippled, sidekick syndrome – basically what Doctor Nerdlove addresses on this blog, but 10x worse. I think the unassertiveness and neuroticism are the worst traits associated with the Asian male stereotype with respect to dating. In fact, I'm a Chinese-American woman and I've found myself put off by this before.
Solution? Explode the stereotype. The element of pleasant surprise works in your favor. Just look at the enormous crossrace popularity of the dance group Quest Crew and other Asian-American dance crews, particularly in the hip-hop and urban dance scene. As part of that culture, they specifically go against the nerdy sidekick stereotype – with "swag" or whatever the kids are saying these days – and the result is legions of fangirls and girls swooning in Youtube comments. Again, it's like the effect Doctor Nerdlove is trying to achieve with all nerds, but magnified.
Also, this Wong Fu Productions video addresses the "why do all the Asian girls date white guys and not me?" question. Funny and on-point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC_ycDO66bw
This is tangentially related, but I thought I’d link to a graphic novel about this that I really enjoyed: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Born_Chinese
I’m a white guy who struggles with the whole “shy unassertive” package of stuff, and it’s gotta be tough adding cultural stereotypes on top.
Thanks for pointing out that there is interracial dating sites Doc, I'll give them a shot.
I am somewhat reversed on this topic. I am of American-Mexican decent. I was born and still live in Texas but culturally, I an not very Hispanic. Because I don't identify with my own race or ethnicity (which term is correct there?), I don't find Hispanic women that sexually attractive or desirable for long term dating and relationships. I am not sure if this stems from the fact that I went to a private cactholic school where a significant majority of the student body was white or because the majority of my family are traditionally Hispanic (save for a couple of aunts and uncles).
Greg, I felt compelled to respond to you because I find myself in a similar situation, although I am black. I grew up in an environment where I was the only black guy most of the time and frequently the only black person at all. As a kid, I always felt a bit alienated from other people, and women in particular, because of my race. Over time, I figured out what these feelings were based in, but for a long time it was weird and frustrating. I often wondered why classmates developed crushes on the various Italian/Irish/Polish/German guys but never me. For those girls, it was natural; those guys were simply the ones who the girls easily identified as potential partners. It doesn't become all that much different as an adult.
The same element is at work in my own dating preferences. I'm most attracted to women much like the ones that I grew up with and with whom I feel like I relate to the best. Going away to college and being exposed to more black women made me realize who much I just didn't *feel* like them. We often didn't have shared experiences in terms of the movies we watched, music that we listened to, or reactions to current events or the local ones around us. It created an unfortunate barrier that prevented us from developing a deeper emotional connection that would turn into a romantic relationship.
I'm sad to say that it doesn't change much with time, but all is not lost. I'm not a young man anymore and I have seen who participates in geek culture. There are surely more geeks of color (Hispanic edition) just as I have found that there are more black females who fit the bill. Or maybe you'll prefer to date more white women (I'll just go ahead and admit that I still do). If that's the case, the road is not easy (especially for nerds reading this column), but I can attest to the fact that that scenario works out as well.
My biggest conundrum is figuring out how to talk to these girls confidently without feeling like I'm sending out "scary black guy" vibes when I'm out in public and find a girl that seems interesting because I know that happens, but perhaps this is some knowledge The Doctor can drop.
I don't know if you really had a question, but I hope that maybe this helps you out in some way.
I feel like "Is it racist?" is the wrong question to ask. I firmly believe that when it comes to selecting potential romantic partners, every human being has the right to be as arbitrary and unfair as they damn well please. Like the Doc said, the genitals want what the genitals want.
Maybe it is racist. Maybe refusing to date outside your race, or eliminating all members of one race from consideration, means you're carrying some baggage you'd be well advised to unpack and sort through. But I'd suggest the time to do that is before you step outside your comfort zone. Dating somebody you're not actually attracted to or comfortable around to avoid a particular label is damned inconsiderate of the other person.
Erm. Inconsiderate TO the other person. The other person is not being inconsiderate. Stupid sloppy use of the language….
I'm just gonna leave this here.
My favorite musical.
Oh please it's racist as fuck. To state that you are not attracted to an entire race? As though they all look the same or share the same characteristics? Bullshit. These women have the right to state their preferences as they wish and date whoever they want, but that doesn't mean that their ~preference~ isn't racist as all hell.
Exactly.
Word.
You do understand that what makes a 'race' is physical, and to a lesser extent cultural characteristics. So it's actually perfectly understandable to not be attracted to a whole race because you don't like their races unique physical characteristics. I don't want to shag Asian women, or Asian men for that matter- but I don't really have a problem with Asians, I've got Asian friends even, I like Asian food, ive been to Singapore and china and I had a great time. I don't find the 'Asian look' attractive, I don't like the eyes, face shapes any on it. I'm just not at all keen. I can't see how not wanting to have sex with a group of people equates to hating them, I mean I have a Persian friend who hates Jews(because of that whole israel Palestine mess), but is absolutely able to be attracted to Jewish women.
Alright, I've had this discussion before and I haven't gotten a clear answer. So let me try here and see what kind of response I get.
First off, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. Just because I don't like something, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist or is inherently 'bad' or 'inferior.' It just means I don't like it.
Now, that said, there are certain things I don't like, and don't find attractive. My favorite is red haired, green eyed girls. This tends to be Caucasian and even more specifically, Irish. I really like red haired and/or green eyed girls. You could even say I 'fetishize' them, however I'd rather date a girl who wasn't red haired and green eyed, that I liked, instead of a red haired/green eyed girl that I didn't like. It's just physical attraction.
And ultimately, it's just a preference. I've seen really gorgeous blondes, brunettes, ravenhaired women, and honestly I don't think I've ever seen an ugly pair of healthy eyes. But still, red haired/green eyed is my favorite, and I acknowledge that.
So there's that. Now, in addition, some races I like and some I don't. Caucasian (my own race) is again my preference, but I also like Asians a lot of the time, like Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc. (And if I get the words wrong, just remember I didn't do so well in Geography.) I also like Russians, Europeans, and most races that have light-colored skin. I simply find it more attractive.
I have found a few dark-skinned women attractive now and then. Halle Berry for one. But for the most part, I'd be hesitant to date a dark-skinned woman. I tend to not find them attractive.
Similarly, is hair. I like Caucasian style hair. Not hair cut or hair style, but just the actual type of hair, again I don't know the words. I find it more attractive than hair you'd normally find on someone dark-skinned (although exceptions exist both ways I think).
So there's that.
And finally, there are some cultures I dislike. For instance, what is commonly called 'ghetto' culture around here, some key parts of which is 'bad neighborhood', or 'gangs', or wearing pants around your knees instead of your waist, gaudy 'bling', talking in ebonics, ritualistic insulting of 'friends'… I wouldn't say that everyone who lives 'in the ghetto' has this culture. But whatever this culture is, however I'm supposed to describe this culture in a PC way, I simply don't like it.
Again, I don't think it's bad, or wrong, or shouldn't exist, or "get that off the streets" or whatever. I just don't like it and prefer not to be around it. If people act like that around me, I leave, if I can. I just don't like it. There's other cultures I don't like either but we'll stick with that example.
So there's that.
And the final comment is, where I live at least, ghetto culture tends to be predominantly Hispanic and/or African-American. Sometimes a little bit of Caucasian too. But I don't really care what your race is, if you act ghetto, then you're acting in a way I don't like.
So, I don't think of myself as racist. But I find it hard to talk about my preferences and tastes without being seen as racist. It seems like simply noticing differences is 'wrong', and god forbid you actually prefer one over the other. Like, I support gay marriage, but I'm not gay, and I'm not into gay things. I support equal rights and the removal of racism, but I'm not attracted to most African Americans. I'm not entirely sure that ghetto culture is a good place to be (especially if it involves gangs) but as long as it's safe, then why not? Their culture is as good as anyone else's, it's just not for me.
But over and over people take so much offense at my honesty about preferences over differences that it's better to just shut up and not talk about it at all. It seems like everyone's so willing to jump to the 'racist' card, or to find offense. "How dare you prefer light-skinned women? And then you have the audacity to actually say so in public? I think this calls for a rope!"
Is there a word for this 'over-sensitive' behavior? Even if there isn't, what are you supposed to about it? I don't want to offend anyone, but I also don't see how simply stating a preference should be offensive, either. I admit that tact plays a good deal in it and I could probably learn lessons in that, but tact aside, it's the subject matter itself that seems so explosive. =/
There's a lot to deconstruct in your comment.
First things first, kudos to you for being blunt about what features you personally find attractive in women, but I'll admit to wincing a bit when I read about you finding Halle Berry dark-skinned (and therefore not to your liking). The woman is biracial and caramel-complexioned–I don't think many people would call her 'dark' by any stretch of the imagination, not even in comparison to Caucasian actresses.
And second, 'ghetto culture'. You speak/write as if street culture is synonymous with the blacks and Hispanics who so often live in urban areas, and so, regardless of their upbringing, you're more likely to categorize individuals of those groups as 'ghetto'. It's clear from your comment that you feel threatened/put-off by any association with it, (and you're entitled to do so), but It just seems as if you're painting entire races with a rather broad brush. Remember, race =/= culture.
One last thing. Most of the time, when people react to something they find offensive, it has less to do with them being 'oversensitive' and 'playing the race card' than it does with the fact that certain issues have been discussed to death, to the point where they're simply tired of hearing about them. There's nothing 'wrong' with preferring lighter-complexioned women. Heck, it's the more popular preference. But because darker-skinned women have been hearing, for centuries (in almost every culture you can think of) that they're less attractive than their fairer cousins/sisters/neighbors SOLELY because of their amount of pigmentation…it strikes a nerve.
Sorry to go in on your comment like that. I appreciate that you took the time to write it out, so I hope I wasn't too harsh or preachy with my response.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, Halle Berry is an example of a "dark skinned" woman that I do find attractive. I realize her skin isn't the darkest but I couldn't think of someone with darker skin immediately. Still can't, actually. Most of the dark skinned actors I like and think are good looking are male. I'm hetero, though, so that doesn't really help. =P
You actually help me prove my point. I try as very hard as I can to talk about the culture, acknowledge that the culture is undeniably and unfortunately made up mostly of a particular race, but try to separate that from the (illogical) conclusion that I feel that way about the race. I don't feel that way about the race, I feel that way about the culture! People of my race that are in that culture I don't like, people of any race that aren't in that culture are fine! It's the culture I don't like.
So again, simply making observations like "most people who exhibit ghetto culture are African-American or Hispanic" and also saying "I don't really like ghetto culture" makes people somehow think I'm saying I don't like African Americans or Hispanics. And that is so totally not what I'm trying to say.
So again, it's easier to say nothing because I still haven't figured out a way to say what I'm trying to say without being misheard. -.-
As far as the discussed to death thing, that's a different type of sensitivity completely. I can completely understand why people may dislike a subject for any reason, especially if it's a subject that hear a lot about. That might account for some of the reactions I've gotten and I'll try to be more careful in the future about whether someone wants to know my honest opinion or whether my opinion is one they don't want to hear again.
However, it doesn't account for all of the excessive hostility I have gotten in the past when saying pretty much anything on this conversation topic.
It's gotten to the point where I've filed it under talking about how I don't find overweight women attractive. I can find a particular overweight woman attractive, and frequently have, even dated a few, but I still prefer women who weigh a healthy amount. (I also find too-thin women unattractive, too.)
Now that I think about it, perhaps any honest statement of what you don't find attractive is always going to cause problems so it's something one should never admit to, ever. That seems to be the lesson I'm learning from this.
"There's nothing 'wrong' with preferring lighter-complexioned women. Heck, it's the more popular preference. But because darker-skinned women have been hearing, for centuries (in almost every culture you can think of) that they're less attractive than their fairer cousins/sisters/neighbors SOLELY because of their amount of pigmentation…it strikes a nerve."
Yes, wonderfully said.
@Thortok2000-If you sexually prefer a particular group of people, well ok I guess. But sharing your preference is somewhat different from informing a wide audience (you really don't know who will see or be hurt by your comments) of whom you do not find attractive. Darker-skinned women, like Charle said, have experienced shadeism in really intimate and hurtful ways (unique from other groups)-often by relatives or members of our own "racial" community. You may find us"oversensitive", but our hurt comes from systematic experiences beyond your reality. As a dark-skinned woman (who is often desired for exotic reasons, but usually dismissed as "relationship-worthy"), it's one thing to read your comment saying "I prefer redheads" and a different thing to read "and this is why I don't like darker-skinned ladies". We have been devalued for centuries in comparison to our lighter-skinned sisters, a message that is reinforced in a myriad of ways (lightening skin products-including bleaching, comments from family members/society, never meeting the parents, hair comments, etc.)
I do not think you're a racist, but I do find your comments to be stinging. It's a narrative dark-skinned women have heard for centuries, and while you may not find us attractive, must you share it with us? Before labeling us as "oversensitive", I'd urge you to watch these two vids exploring the experiences behind shadeism and its effect on dark-skinned women. You're allowed a preference (I know I've got a thing for British guys), but I'm just asking you to open your mind to other people's reality before casually (and I'm sorry to say, ignorantly) stating something that is loaded with so much history and deep-seated biases/attitudes that have greatly affected many women (and men as well, but on a lesser scale). Of course you have the right to state you do not find attractive, but I hope you would sympathize with a dark-skinned girl coming across your comment that reinforces a narrative that has been pushed on her (often cruelly) her whole life.
Dark Girls Preview: http://vimeo.com/24155797
Shadeism: http://vimeo.com/16210769
Thank you (I hope this doesn't come off rudely).
Thanks, Ren–you put it far more eloquently than I did. I've also watched both of the videos you linked a few months back, and they're both heartbreakingly revealing about intraracism and colorism dark-skinned women often find themselves facing.
I was in a bit of a hurry last night when responding to @Thortok2000's question (hence misunderstanding his statement about finding Halle Berry attractive), but I think that I wanted to say was that his comment stings *because* of the fact that he isn't saying anything (preference-wise) that women of color haven't heard before…usually stated far more bluntly.
"But for the most part, I'd be hesitant to date a dark-skinned woman. I tend to not find them attractive." Why do you think that is, exactly? My issue with preferences is that they're so often poorly-reasoned. So few people are willing to admit how much they've been coached by Eurocentric beauty ideals in terms of what they find attractive–I hear plenty about how long, thin limbs, pale skin, thin features, and straight hair are the rage, and no one ever seems to attribute it to the fact that nearly every supermodel/woman touted as 'beautiful' has these features…has to have them to be considered eligible for the running, even.
"Similarly, is hair. I like Caucasian style hair. Not hair cut or hair style, but just the actual type of hair, again I don't know the words. I find it more attractive than hair you'd normally find on someone dark-skinned (although exceptions exist both ways I think). "
Again, black women hear this quite a bit. Documentaries like Chris Rock's 'Good Hair' spotlight the fact that the tightly-curly, kinky hair that black women naturally grow isn't commonly seen as beautiful compared to pin-straight/wavy hair…hence the fact that weaves and chemical relaxers are so in-demand in black communities. Thankfully, there's an ongoing Back to Natural movement, but comments like yours (Thortok2000) reinforce the fact that the majority of people still don't find ethnic hair nearly as aesthetically pleasing.
Maybe that's oversensitivity speaking, but when you've heard something your entire life, especially in terms of what's preferred, it does start to grate a little.
Honestly, and I didn't want to go here with this, getting into this level is even more of a minefield than simply talking about skin color, but most people with darker skin have a different shape to their face, like wider, flatter noses for instance. I suck at describing faces so I can't really get into details, but it is simply something I don't find attractive. Those who have faces I like, I tend to find attractive, regardless of skin color.
Just because someone doesn't find you attractive, or even the majority doesn't, doesn't mean that nobody will find you attractive. I do agree, though, it does suck. I'm a bit overweight and can't afford nice clothes, and I worry about not being attractive enough. It happens to all of us.
I do think it ultimately revolves down to "if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing." However, my curiosity still lies in how to honestly answer if asked, much like how a guy wants to know how to answer the question "does this dress make me look fat." =P
Thing is, unless lots of Black women from the hood are trying to get in your pants, I can't think of too many contexts in which a nerdy white guy would be required to explicitly verbalize his lack of attraction to non-Caucasian features. Just say you like tall thin blondes and be done with it. As for your thing about "ghetto culture", that would seem to be about class as much as it is about race, so just say you are more attracted to women with a similar education level to yours. Boom! Preference expressed without pissing off or hurting anyone. It's just like how most women will say they like tall, athletic, confident guys and don't usually feel any great need to additionally specify that they find nerds and short guys repulsive (and then to hide behind "it's just my taste, man!" when called on it).
I mean, it's almost like you're asking to pull some variation on "no fat chicks" and expecting everybody to be okay with it, you know?
(the above should say "asking *for permission* to pull some variation…")
I do think it just boils down to never making negative statements, ever. It doesn't matter if you're giving your honest opinion or not, apparently.
Publicly I do indeed stay away from talking about what I don't like, for example on profiles. The only reason I mention it now is sometimes in private conversation if I talk about likes and dislikes, the dislikes seem to antagonize if it's something the other person can even slightly identify with…even if they asked for honesty! That's the part that really gets me.
How do you answer a question when someone has asked for honesty and you know they won't like the answer? Ugh.
What you're saying is one of the several reasons why it's so difficult for guys to figure out what women like as well – women are also subjected to this constant criticism about not liking what they're "supposed" to like, so often after a while they stop talking about the things that they really like (if they're aware of them) and all you get is a bunch of politically correct platitudes that relate very little to the big things they actually find attractive.
The common social way that people deal with this is to talk about these kind of issues only with your friends, people who know you, which is why you so rarely hear about what really drives people when it might be controversial.
But really, that's how people handle it – they have real life friends who they talk about this kind of stuff with, and don't talk about it in more loosely associated groups. It's like, let's take the complete opposite direction, let's say a guy like women 10 years older than him. He usually only mentions it to the people he likes, and people who him well, and never says anything about it to anyone else.
It's extremely painful to deal with if you're trying to figure out why people don't like you though.
Or what it is that girls/guys actually are looking for…
That's why it's also kind of…well, you're never going to learn anything if you're never willing to write something and offend someone or other.
It's really a p.i.t.a. if you're trying to discover new information, or have an intellectual conversation though.
I think I'm really lucky to live where I live. Interracial dating is so common you don't even bat an eye at it. However, in the smaller towns it can lead to some down right mean and hateful things. Until I was older I never heard the term interracial dating. It was just dating. There were no interracial marriages. There were just marriages. I wish the rest of the country would catch up. I hate all the racial focus. I think it serves to divide us as a people far too much. It is far too much "Us" vs "Them".
If I ever, God forbid, had to do the online dating thing… I think I would just specify Christian and American… and work through it from there.
I think there's a difference between a preference and exclusion. Preference to me implies that you like something a little more than others, but you are still OPEN to other options. I'm a black female and I find Asian men to be the most physically attractive, but that doesn't mean I ONLY date them. I'm open to and have dated men of other races including my own. While there is the initial physical attractiveness, ultimately, how well you click and what you have in common will be what keeps a relationships going. Sometimes it's in your own race and sometimes it's not.
I've met guys both online and offline and when it comes to other race, there are plenty of people have said some WTF things to me. "You're pretty for a black girl" and "I;d date you if you weren't black are NOT compliments. I've met some people with a sense of entitlement getting stuff like, "yeah you should be grateful that I'm even talking to you since I don't talk to black girls." I don't waste my time on these fools.
But there are A LOT of people out that there think that YOU wouldn't be interested in THEM because of their race. Or they simply don't think about dating other races because they simply haven't been around them enough. I've found this more in online dating. So it's more a matter of ignorance than being racist. Some guys are completely shocked that black girls like anime and video games and what not, and well tell me so (because we are often left out of discussion about women in geek culture).
Don't get upset at a women because she says she doesn't like black guys/Asian guys. Don't try to convinve them that you're awesome of black people/Asian people aren't bad…it's NOT your job to do so. For every woman that isn't interested in you because of your race, yes there ARE others that are interested. She's not worth your time. There are other women out there who aren't sticklers for race that you can put effort into.
I would also say avoid telling them how much you hate women of your own race or saying you love white girls because you have a lot of white friends. Both of these just sound silly, and the former makes you sound bitter.
DON'T send a message to a women you HAVE NOT listed as a preferences on online dating. Some guys have sent me messages and have checked out everything but a black woman and will send me a message. I don't reply or tell them I'm not interested.
And if you want OTHERS to keep their doors open to you, keep YOUR doors open as well. Look at women, both in and other your race, because you never know who will be the "one."
+1 to everything you said!
I have to ask, does anyone know any good interracial dating sites? The two I went to seem to be dead, kind of.
IR sites are just as hit or miss as say OKCupid or Match.com. There's a bunch of them, Afroromance, Interacial Dating Central, etc. I'll say "ethnic" sites too like (by ethnic, I mean sites that are promoted as dating only one group of people, but they don't boot you if you are not of that group). There are international ones too like UBLove. But as I mentioned before, there can be a serious sense of entitlement on some of those sites. Additionally, a lot of them are actually owned by the same people, so your profile on one site can actually show up on a different site. I believe even Yahoo! Groups has IR dating groups? LOL, there's even Craigslist–don't knock it, I know folks that have been surprisingly success on there!
When I did online dating, the only site I actually did meet people from was OKCupid which is pretty ironic since they posted that article about how black women hardly get replies. Though for me, it's not about quantity but quality. Doesn't matter if you're getting 20 messages a day when you're not interested in any of them. My current BF and I met on OKCupid.
Maybe you can try Meetup.com? It's not speficially and online dating site, but they do have groups for IR daters and you can meet in person in a group setting. You may not hit the jackpot on your first time out, but there's still the potential of having fun doing an activity regardless of who you meet. Heck, don't just rely on the IR ones, just look for fun groups where you feel you will find the type of women you want to meet.
It's not racist, just a little suspect. I think it's important to remember that our preferences are influenced by media and our environment. No on is born destined to only be attracted to redheads or blondes with big boobs. The environment you grew up in has a huge effect on who you're attracted to once you begin dating.
People need to spend a little time deconstructing there preferences before just accepting them. It's easy to just say you prefer light complexions instead of really thinking about why. There are very few people of color that are promoted as attractive by the media. And if they are, they tend to have more European features.
No one needs to explain to anyone why they have their preferences. But you should be able to at least understand how your environment has shaped what you now deem attractive.
Thank you so much for this comment. Yes, everybody is allowed to like what they like, but let's not pretend that our "likes" form in a vacuum without social pressures and are thus off the table for critical examination.
As a person of mixed background with interracial parents and who just recently came out of a long-term interracial relationship, I believe there's a good reason people prefer to date within their own "race" or culture. I would argue that the issue is predominantly social. Yes, there are going to be some flat-out racists. It's also not as simple as all of that. You don't get to tell other who they do/don't want to be with just because you feel entitled to date whoever you like.
Now, I'm not saying this doesn't work out for anybody and that these relationships are *doomed to failure* by any means. But they can take a lot of hard work. They aren't for everybody. Have some respect for the people who choose to date within a familiar set of social codes. Personally, I'd like to relate to another person in a similar situation to myself. A lot of my life was influenced by my mixed ethnicity. Is it wrong to seek out another who could relate on this basis?
There's nothing wrong per say about wanting to date someone who you share a similar back ground with. My question to you would be do you think the values and attributes you received from your upbringing could only be found in someone with a similar back ground?
No, I don't believe that's the case. However, during the experiences I had with people on *either side of the racial fence*, neither really empathised where I was coming from. Both attempted to assimilate me into the side that was most convenient for them and their families. It could just be the people I've encountered. It could also be that they grew up with a significantly different outlook on their identity and sense of belonging. It may be (or may not be in others' experiences) a rare thing for people outside of my particular situation to understand. That being said, it also isn't the be all and end all of a relationship. I've accepted from an early age that my mixed racial and cultural identity was going to make things interesting. This isn't even getting to the tip of the iceberg, dating is inherently complicated.
I get that. I've had similar experiences with dating. I think its an issue because we rarely talk about the impact race has on our daily lives. I've had to explain white privilege or why affirmative action is important to several girlfriends. That constant battle to get someone to understand how the world views you can get exhausting.
My current girlfriend is black and there is definitely a difference when it comes to relating on a level of shared ethnic identity.
I don't get angry with people specifying race because I want to date them. I'd never want to date someone who was that racist.
Anyway, prejudice against mixed race couples will only get better if people decide to change it, and that means not buying into it. Mixed-race couples were a big deal in the UK in the 60's, and now only utter bigots would even bat an eye. Mixed race couples and their kids are everywhere. Its not like racism doesn't exist in the UK, but profiles like that would lose you a big chunk of replies from all races because it would be seen as ridiculously backward. Most of the replies would probably be from people hoping the poster died lonely.
What are peoples problem with identifying what type of race you are attracted to? Your relationship isnt supposed to be some statement of non-predjudice for everyone to know how free thinking and progressive you are. The original post said it loud and clear, "the genitals want what the genitals want". Dont deny yourself that in a relationship just to be politically correct.
But in the end, is that Racist? Yes, it is! But you arent condemning another race, denying their rights, denying them a job, or putting them down. Its a relationship you are talking about.
Dont hate on a man or woman for not being interested in your race, your height, your skin color or religion. Move on and you'll find someone for you.
You know, on a different note this is really making me think about why I'm attracted to certain races. Is it just physical attraction or more an attraction to what they represent. Maybe I would appreciate a woman more for her personality if i looked outside of these preferences I've built up.
This is a really interesting topic, and I think I can offer some insight from a woman's perspective. I am an equal opportunity dater. I've dated black, white, different types of hispanic, asian, bisexual, and a variety of international men. I am a pretty non-discriminating serial monogomist. I'm a feminist and also generally participate in other civil rights activism. Oh, I should mention I am a white Russian Jewish immigrant. Now, as a feminist, the issue I encounter most is not necessarily a *race* issue, as much as a *cultural* issue. Certain backgrounds and ethnicities are more prone to stricter expectations of gender roles that I am not comfortable complying with in a relationship, i.e. I will never date another man of the same background as me, a Russian/Eastern European immigrant, because they expect a level of female submissiveness that I feel is unreasonable.
However, over the years, I have added other ethnicities to my no-go list. Many of them, I have attempted to re-try to date on several occasions with almost similar results. With black and hispanic men, the issue is two-fold. One, was already addressed by DNL, as a thicker woman who is also a runner, I don't have what many refer to as a "white-girl butt", and I've also noticed that for many black men, showing up to social events with a white woman is a status thing. I have no desire to be neither a fetish nor a trophy. Two, many black and hispanic men have a very strong sense of "manliness" or machismo, and yes, this applies to even nerdy guys. In college, I used to play chess with my friend mike, who was black, in the IT center between classes. I never perceived any racial tension or difference with him, and often we would talk openly and discuss current events involving race. However, one day, a group of guys belonging to college's black frat walked in to the center, and it was like Mike completely switched gears. All of a sudden, our chess game was abandoned and I was completely ignored. I know people engage in code-switching, and it's normal, but it was very hurtful to see someone I who was my friend be too embarrassed to even introduce me to his other friends. I'm still friends with Mike, but when he attempted to date me, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, because I just imagined how he would cast me aside when we would be around his black friends, or even his family. And no, I'm not basing my no-gos on one experience. I've had multiple that are somewhat similar, where a hispanic or black man does not feel like I fit his friends' perception of coolness so I'm not introduced/brought around particular groups of friends. It's important to me to be with a partner that treats me as a whole person not a sum of my body parts, and also is proud to be seen with me.
I know it's an issue in the black community, that people are judged on their degree of blackness which coincides with cultural acceptance. I recognize it because women are judged on their degree of femininity. It's a symptom of oppression, and I would love to move past it, and I often find black or hispanic men very attractive, it is just the way I'm treated in the relationship is more important to me than making sure my dating pool is all-inclusive.
Honestly, I am constantly re-evaluating my no-go list when I'm presented with a potential suitor who doesn't seem to be too compliant with certain cultural norms. With the same argument, I'm not comfortable dating white men of rural background, again gender roles and the desire to make babies way sooner than I am willing to, is very heavily embedded in the culture. A few times, it started out with "OMG it's such a breath of fresh air to date an independent woman with a good head on her shoulders", just to end with "OMG, you're so amazing, I just want you to have my babies" *record scratch* where I excuse myself to call my OBGYN to schedule getting an IUD.
Of course its racist. Just like only wanting to date rich people is venal. And only wanting to date women who are weaker than you, or men who make you feel protected is sexist. It may be a sexual fantasy or fetish you feel trained into, but you can still examine your prejudices.
We all have dream lovers who star in our sexual fantasies, and they may look a certain way (including being a certain race). But if someone thinks they are going to find a perfect match to their dream lover on a dating site, they are deluded. So why not pick the bits of your dream lover that are actually worthwhile virtues, such as kindness, or intelligence or sense of humour, and drop the real-world incompatible bits – like race, perfect abs, kung-fu mastery or vampire fangs.
I'm a white male and I just don't have the same level of attraction to girls of other races. I ve had girls of other races show interest in me, but I'm only really attracted to white girls. I even prefer girls with the similar eye colour. Not that I don't find girls of other races attractive, I just prefer similar looking girls.