Dr Nerdlove,
I know this blog is mostly geared towards geeky guys, but I’m a geek girl with a problem. I’m super attracted to geeks, mostly because of the whole similar interests thing. As you have said sometimes geeks are shy, I’m pretty shy too, but I’ve finally gotten to the point where I am more comfortable asking people out. I was told (by an ex) that relationships never work out when a girl makes the first move, it sounds ridiculous in my head, but could he be right? Obviously I haven’t had a relationship work out (or I likely wouldn’t be looking for a new one) but I haven’t had someone I’ve asked out work out at all. Am I doing something wrong? Should I still stay shy?
Shrinking Violet
To put it mildly, your ex is an idiot.
There are any number of reasons why a relationship might not work out whether it’s because of sexual incompatibility, emotional disconnects or even just your lives going in different directions. The idea that a relationship won’t work based on who asked whom out first? You might as well insist that you can’t ask someone out on days where you see a pigeon take a shit while flying east-northeast because the relationship will never work; you’ll have about the same level of accuracy.
To steal a line from my celebrity spirit animal, every relationship fails until one doesn’t. The idea that a woman asking a man out automatically dooms a relationship is a) bullshit and b) really amusing when you get all of the dudes complaining about why women “don’t approach more“.
I know people who come up with all sorts of contrived “rules” about when you can ask people out and when you can’t, whether it’s within a three month span between Christmas and Valentine’s Day or within X days/weeks/months of someone else asking them out because of some bullshit reason and it all comes down to magical thinking and confirmation bias.
If you like a dude and you’re moved to ask him out, then by all means, do so! The only thing I would caution you about is that some guys – especially the mores socially inexperienced – may assume a greater level of interest than you actually have; some guys take a woman asking him out or making the first move as a sign that said woman is under his sexual thrall and they’re off to make 30 minutes of squishy noises any minute now. But hey, if that happens… well, it’s one of the risks of putting yourself out there.
And if he turns out to be one of those idiots who is threatened by the slightest alteration in traditional gender roles, then really, you’re better off not dating him, aren’t you?
Go ask out some cute nerdboys. You’ll be glad you did.
Dear Doc,
I was wondering if you could help me with a problem. I know most people write to you asking how to get OUT of the friend zone, but I’d like your advice on getting INTO it. Allow me to elaborate:
There’s this girl at work who likes me, but I don’t share her feelings. She wants to go out with me, but I’m really not interested in a relationship. It’s not like there’s any problem with her. Simply put; she’s in MY friend zone.
I met her at work. The company I work for was preparing to open a new branch near my job site, so they hired a bunch of new trainees. She was one of the new people me and my coworkers helped to train.
She apparently took an interest in me because I’m bilingual and she studies foreign languages, which was nothing new for me because I’ve had numerous coworkers who study foreign languages and they’re always interested. I gave her the standard carbon copy routine I give everyone who ever asked about my language skills: Yes, I’ve lived overseas. Yes, most of my family is bilingual too. Yes, I sometimes dream in two languages. Yes, I can watch foreign movies without subtitles. No, I can’t think in one language and speak in another. Etc. Etc.
At one point she asked if I’ve ever had a foreign language job, and I mentioned that I regularly write for a foreign language website. Shortly after that, she found my twitter account on the website and began asking questions about my experiences via twitter after she started working at the new branch.
Over the next month, she would often ask about me, my hobbies, and things like that. I kind of got a hint that she liked me but I wasn’t completely sure until today when I ran into her and she abruptly asked me if I wanted to go out for dinner some time. I was kind of caught off guard at the moment and sort of mumbled, “Yeah, sure.” and watched her half-walk, half-skip away. Now I feel like a total douche because I realized that since I feel no romantic attraction to this girl, if I don’t do something, I’ll be stringing her along like the so many girls I pursued back in high school who I’d follow like an obedient little puppy. At the same time, I don’t want to hurt her. I don’t dislike her or anything. It’s just that I don’t feel any romantic emotions for her. She is, to repeat my earlier statement, in my friend zone.
I don’t know what to do here. I’ve spent all my life chasing after girls, I don’t know how to deal with being on the opposite side. How can I get her to stop liking me without hurting her?
On another note, do you have any idea why she started liking me to begin with? I treated her the same as I did all the other trainees, I don’t recall ever sending any overt signals that I was interested in her, I even told her about my geek hobbies (computers, movies, anime, and a video game collection that could choke a whale) when she asked, which up until now would usually send girls packing. Where did I go right, the one time I didn’t mean to?
Sincerely,
Bad Wolf
Well that’s a first. It’s not very often we hear from a guy trying to figure out how to let a girl know he’s not interested.
First things first: unfortunately, there is no guaranteed painless way to let someone know you’re not interested. If there were, we wouldn’t have an entire genre of music devoted to “I Love You Why Won’t You Return My Feelings?”
On the other hand, we’d be getting rid of at least 90% of Taylor Swift’s career. So mixed bag.
The best thing you can do is be short and direct: tell her you’re flattered, but you’re just not into her that way. It’ll suck for her, but the clean break heals fastest and shows respect for her by not dragging it out or stringing her along.
Now as for why she’s into you: you’re her superior, which means you are essentially a leader and many women find that attractive. You treat her like the other trainees, which can be seen as confidence. Also: you’re exotic to her. You’ve lived an interesting life – you’ve lived overseas, you speak two languages fluently, you have a job that entails writing in your non-native language… these are all things that set you apart from just about everybody she’s used to. If you’re into anime, you’ve undoubtedly seen the trope of the transfer student who used to live abroad and came back home more worldly and experienced than his peers.
Guess what, BW? That’s you. And she’s the giggly classmate with a crush.
You’ve done things she’s never done, seen things she’s never seen… all of this can make someone quite the dashing figure. Hell, she may well have dreams of living abroad herself one day… and here you are, a living example of her goal.
Long story short, you’ve demonstrated a host of qualities that women find attractive, you just didn’t realize you were doing it. Keep this in mind for next time you’re interested in someone else: you have a lot more going for you than you give yourself credit for.
Oh, and quit treating being a geek like it’s a bad thing. Lots of women are into geeky dudes. Just ask Shrinking Violet up there.
Honest question: Why does the Friend Zone seem to affect guys more than girls? Does it actually affect both sides equally, and guys just complain about it more? Or is there some inherent reason why guys end up in the Zone more often than girls?
I've been Friendzoned so many times, but girls are taught that it's OUR fault when guys don't like us. Read a lot of popular women's magazines and they're filled with tips to "attract that guy!" and if they don't work you obviously just did something wrong. Conversely, guys are generally socialized to think of girls as the prize. Click the buttons in the right order and you're guaranteed the result.
It's rare we think of these things consciously. Most guys, even Nice Guys(TM), don't go around claiming they deserve the hot chick just because she's there and single, but the very idea of being "Friendzoned" as something negative a girl maliciously does to a guy reveals how society in general sees it.
I think the ladies above have pointed out something a bit subtle about the way we're socialized. The idea of the friendzone is that you have a romantic interest, she (or he) doesn't and you try to be friends but can't get over that crush. Women who have a romantic interest in their friends seem to be better able to shift gears and maintain the relationship as friends when they know romance has no chance without the undercurrent of bitterness. It may be that it actually happens pretty equally to both sexes or it may not. Its just that men are the most vocal about it as an issue.
Oh we have bitterness! We're just taught to direct that bitterness to the woman they chose over us! Not the guy himself.
The worst is when that girl is your best friend. Ugh. That is awful, then you pretty much just have to crawl in a hole and die because you're not allowed to be mad at anyone.
If you ask me, the Friend Zone is a bull shit way of playing the blame game. I've had crushes on guys that only saw me as friends or I only wanted to be friends with a guy that had a crush on me hundreds of times. Sometimes things change and there's a mutual attraction or the opposite. Other times it's like we flip-flopped at the same time, one losing attraction while the other's grew. Even at times nothing ever changed with one attracted and the other not. That's just how it works, and from either side it can be a real bummer if you let it. Attraction is fluid and based on a complex mix of physical likes/dislikes and personality and interests, etc. As things change (or don't), so do our tastes and feelings. But what really kills me is all the girls/guys (in comments below and otherwise) talking about how they get mad at/blame some other poor girl/guy that the guy/girl they are crushing on has a thing for. You can't help who you like or who likes you, so there's no reason to get mad at anyone, not even yourself. So to answer your question, no one ends up in this bullshit Zone more often. If you feel that's happening to you, maybe it just means that these girls/guys see that you are of high enough quality to want you in their life, but there's just some lack of attraction on their side that can only be blamed on nature, hormones, and circumstances. Not the worst thing in the world, people. Especially cause having friends to vouch for you could just be that surefire way to meet the cutie pie you're longing for. They might even set you up and play wing (wo)man if you quit the whining and pining.
I get friend zoned all the time, or placed in the casual sex only category, which is often worse. I understand the bitterness associated with the Friend zone, especially when a guy can spend 6+ hours with me engaging in conversation about anything under the sun, so clearly likes my personality, yet at the same time finds me so physically unappealing that my personality is not enough in the least to make up for it.
Agreed. It seems like even when the guy rejects us romantically, or doesn't seem to notice us, we still appreciate him as a friend, and instead turn our negativity onto other girls.
Come to think of it… so girls get anger from their male friends that they don't want to date, and then anger from the female friends of those male friends for "stealing" their guy. Amazing how many sins seem to fall at the female feet. (I'm reading "Cleopatra" right now, so this theme is resonating a lot.)
Could vary by person to person–I've never been angry or resentful at a crush that didn't return my affections. But the trope is men in the friend-zone (because men are the ones that do the asking and women don't get hopeless crushes, nooooo), so with confirmation bias it's easy to overgeneralize.
I agree with that. I think part of the perception problem that there are no girls in the friend zone is tied into the perception problem that girls can get sex whenever they want.
If you believe all girls have to do is say "Hey, you're hot," and it directly leads to sex, then it might be hard to believe relationships where the man is shutting things down exist.
But they do, because both of those perceptions simply aren't correct.
Obviously both men and women can feel unrequited love and lost. This should be so obvious that it should not be questioned. I think that the friend-zone is viewed as something that only men suffer from because in heterosexual relationships, men are viewed as active and women as passive. Its men who fall in love and court women and make them fall in love with them. Women are not seen as actively falling in love or pursuing men or if the pursue its an indirect sort of thing usually. So men are seen as being more vulnerable to the friend zone because of this.
Shrinking Violet
I'm with the Dr. on this one. Ask guys out! I do think that if things don't go your way (like he turns you down) you have to remember not to let it get to you and get down about it. But there are plenty of guys out there that are very flattered when women take the initiative. I've asked guys out and for some of them their initial reaction was surprise…then relief! I guess because they get equally nervous about having to ask someone out too/ So go ahead and take a shot!
Recently, there was a young woman on OkCupid you messaged me. I checked out her profile and decided not to message her back because she didn't really come off as appealing personality wise since she seemed to have a rather intense personality. I decided not to message back. In a week she messaged me again and revealed that she lacked a sense of humor and irony. This was the real deal killer. The only thing that I could do was block her since simply not responding to her did not work. Sometimes you have to be very direct with your lack of interest but you should do so in most gentle and polite way possible.
Huh… That's almost as far from direct as you can come. What was wrong with a simple, "Hi X, I'm flattered, but I don't think we're compatible. Thanks for your letter"?
No answer is no answer. It's absolutely fine if you don't care about leaving her hanging (which you can have a bazillion valid reasons to do), but don't pretend it's any kind of direct or polite.
I read an article that I vaguely remember where the writer said that she was "bro'd" as the female version of the friend zone.
Thirty years ago when I was in high school, it was the "Be likes you as a friend, but not a girlfriend." statement. I got bro-zoned almost constantly except for when I was married, and then again for 8 years straight until I met my current partner. Men just didn't know I existed, until suddenly one did.
Back in high school, I was talking with a girl I don't usually talk with and saying that there weren't any girls in the grade that liked me. She said there was, and I asked her to name one, and she did. And I was like 'oh, really?' cause she didn't even talk to me all that much.
When I went to try to talk to her to either confirm or deny, I was never able to. She'd always find some way to get away before I could find a way to ask her for a private word. I thought she was cute, although I hadn't really noticed her before the other girl had said something. She wound up transferring schools at the end of the year and I never saw her again. To this day I don't know if she liked me or was creeped out by me and the other girl was making stuff up.
Assuming she liked me and was shy, my advice to Violet is don't be that shy! -laughs- But really. Doc nailed the advice in both letters, as usual.
However, if it was me in that second letter, I would've given it one date or so to see if interest could grow. Maybe I'm weird, but unless there's something I don't like about a woman, knowing she's interested in me makes me interested in her.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like bilingual dude is tired of the same old questions and that's what he doesn't like about this girl, she's not new or interesting to him because she's doing things he's already tired of from others. If he could nudge her off that track, get her to be new and refreshing, maybe she could get herself out of his friend zone.
Then again, maybe he has other reasons I don't know about. -shrug-
I argee, the guy should take the girl out on that date and see what happens, after all they may have things a lot in common but he just never gave her the time of day.
Some people just know. I have both male and female friends who will decide very quickly if something can come from a date. I was baffled the first few times, "Wait – you want a bf/gf, don't you? How can you know? Why not give hir a chance?"
But some people are just like that. The ones I know are very in tune with themselves and their emotions, and I suppose that's how they know.
I'm not saying I haven't been this judgmental myself before, if I know some quality about a person is an accurate reflection of them and I don't like that quality, but based on the letter there's not enough data to know why he doesn't like her or want to date her.
If it was just "she's too interested in a part of my background that I find people who are interested in annoying" then she can get over that, that's not a permanent fixture of her personality. I wouldn't think, anyway. A little communication that he finds that annoying and her response/reaction would indicate whether she's interested in the rest of him or not.
Hey Doc,
You’ve given some really good council for us nerds. My question is, do the same rules apply to interracial dating or are there other things we need to be aware of when the dynamic changes? On the surface it seems like this shouldn’t really be an issue, but as a guy who likes women of other races, I can say that often it is. Ive found that some women can’t seem to see me when I approach them as just a guy, instead I have to be a “black” guy and there is a certain way I’m supposed to act and if I don’t act that way it can either help or hurt the conversation because as the Joker would say, it’s not part of the plan. So how can I overcome this when I’m approaching a girl that I like?
Thanks doc