Hi Doc,
First let me say I’ve been following your blog for a while now and I’m a big fan. That being said, let me share my story with you.
This past Saturday night I visited the Temple nightclub in San Francisco for a little dancing. Shortly after eleven I was up on the dance floor performing one of my moves which I like to call “the boxer” when a small group of ladies caught sight of my moves. One of them decided she wanted to dance with me and proceeded to grind on me. I am-of course-only happy to accomodate. After maybe a minute she’s had her fun and backs off. I give a cordial bow and continue on dancing. Then she brings her friends over. I was a bit pre-occupied with dancing, but I think there was a total of eight women suddenly dancing all around me and with me. For about 15 minutes I was at the center of the dance floor with all of these women dancing with me, grinding on me, and sandwiching me. At one point one of the women lost a shoe and I dexterously kneeled down, pick it up, and held it up like prince charming so she could get it back on. I even spotted a couple of guys trying to figure out how I was doing my dance moves. Needless to say–but I’m going to say it anyways–it was awesome and I really killed it on the dance floor. After this 15 minutes, the group dissipated and I decided I’d engage the woman I’d been dancing with the most in conversation. Here’s how that conversation went:
Me: Hi, my name’s Allen.
Her: May.
Me: Pleasure to meet you.
Her: You too, have fun.
Me: (Pause)…Thanks, you too.
I walked away perplexed and decided to not try to engage any of the other women as I couldn’t readily see them and I didn’t want to come off as a creeper. I only came there to dance in the first place. Getting a pretty girl’s number would have only been icing on the cake. So I left. My question is this: What the hell happened?
Looking back I can only see two things that could have played against me. The first was that in the midst of the crazy action happening on the dance floor, I did let one of my hands slide a little too far up the back of her thigh for her taste, but this–as all touching I did with all the ladies–was a light touch and she easily guided my hand away with no ill consequences. It’s still possible that it was too much for her and I’m ready to admit I may have gotten carried away.
The second was when I spoke to her, the inflection of my voice may have made it seem like all I wanted to do was say hello. I was a bit out of breath with sweat streaming down my face and I was essentially shooting from the hip as far as the conversation was concerned. It’s a small thing, yes, but I figured I’d mention it.
I personally have a tough time with social etiquette and picking up nonverbal cues, so it’s very possible that she did something I didn’t notice. At any rate, I’m happy with the way things turned out. I’m just trying to analyze the situation and learn from it. Thanks for your help, Doc.
Cutting A Rug
You didn’t do anything wrong.
The dance floor, especially in nightclubs, is it’s own beast. You will see men and women doing everything but actually fucking when the DJ drops the right beat (and even then, you’d have to look REALLY close to make sure there wasn’t any penetration). Strange women will come up, grind their asses into your crotch to the beat as you run your hands all over ‘em and then they’ll leave without saying a word. None of it means anything other than somebody decided it’d be fun to dance with you and get crazy for as long as it took to crossfade from Flo Rida to LFMAO. A lot of guys will make the mistake of thinking that getting up on a girl on the dance floor means that she’s really into him… when in fact, she’s probably just doing her own thing and will be moving on to somebody else in short order.
In other words: what happens on the dance floor tends to stay on the dance floor. That includes attraction. It’s one thing if you ask a girl to dance; it’s another if they come up for a song and leave afterwards.
Don’t worry about it. If they stayed with you the length of the song, you were doing alright.
Salutations Dr. Nerdlove,
I have been successfully and happily dating a geek for two years now. We have a great mental, physical and emotional connection, and I don’t want to be with anyone else.
However, one thing that’s missing in this introverted geek of mine is empathy.
Yes, geeks don’t socialise throughout most of their life, leaving them lacking in a lot of social skills.
This means that my guy, when I come to him with a problem, such as “my friends left me out, I don’t feel so good”, “I got in trouble with my superior over something I didn’t do”, or ” I felt kind of insecure about myself today because”, etc, he will approach it with no empathy because he has never had to deal with these experiences.
He will more than likely play the devil’s advocate, asking me to see it from the other person’s side, or he will give me the disapproving “I wouldn’t feel bad about this, so you shouldn’t feel bad about it” line. Is it so much to ask to get a ” gee, that’s pretty bad” and a hug? Maybe some choc-choc?
It came to a head and I confronted him about it. Me, sitting in front of him crying and explaining how bad I felt when I actually need him to be there for me and he’s not, and he listened for about five minutes before his eyes started flicking back towards his computer screen in boredom and irritation. The conversation about me explaining that I would like more empathy and he continues to show none, probably because again, it wouldn’t be an issue to him, why is it an issue for me?
All of these issues that I have had, are minuscule in the grand scheme of life, I’m still happy with the majority of the relationship and I always have my friends to turn to for comfort.
When I look at our future together, though, I sense misery.
When I lose a career, if I diagnosed with an illness, when I lose a family member…
If he can’t be there for me when I cry over a friend’s betrayal, and makes me feel like I have to deal with life’s general bad blows on my own, do I continue to stay with him until a major blow comes, and he leaves me picking up the pieces again, with no understanding or regard to how I feel?
If something devastating and life-changing comes along I really won’t have the energy to write him a to-do list: 1) give me a hug 2) make me hot chocolate 3) tell me it will be OK and that you’re always here for me. I will just need somebody to do that for me without asking, as would anybody. I’m not sure he can be that kind of person…
Is this a common trait among the socially-challenged community? Am I supposed to count my blessings and look at all the other great things he brings to the table? He loves and cares for me. I know he wants me to be happy and he does so much for me, he’s loyal and faithful, we share the same values, but when I’m in trouble with something that he doesn’t understand he pulls out the judgement card instead of the empathy one.
Other times he doesn’t judge me at all but his idea of comforting somebody when they’re sad is to say ” I’ll leave you alone and give you some space”, thinking that it really is the best option and what I would really want at that time. He seems to genuinely need written instructions on how to comfort somebody who is upset.
How does one train somebody who’s socially incapable of giving comfort, or of sensing when it needs to be delivered…
And don’t get me wrong, I am not the type to cry every five minutes, I have been visibly upset four times in the last two years in front of him, the other handful of times I have delivered my feelings without tears and in a straightforward, logical way. His lack of patience and empathy can not be put down to him being bored by some kind of high-maintenance girlfriend, crying all the time.
It might also help if I add that I was his first girlfriend. It was why I been understanding of his behaviour thus far, but him still using this excuse is getting on my nerves at this late stage in the game.
Are geeks changeable in this regard? And if so, what can I say to act as a catalyst for change?
Yours,
Empathetically Starved
Congratulations, you’ve stumbled into that hoariest of relationship tropes, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Overused Cliches. Same planet, different worlds. The problem is less to do with him being a geek (although that certainly doesn’t help) and more to do with him being male.
The problem with a lot of guys is that we grow up used to communicating with other guys, which means that we frequently end up falling back into unfortunate socialization patterns that teach guys to be less in touch with their emotions and more direct about problem solving. Tell a guy something’s been bothering you at work and he’ll be more likely to try to help you fix it than to say “Hey, that sucks, why don’t you come sit on the couch and tell me about it?” We tend to try to logic our way through issues, and sometimes it can be a little frustrating to deal with something where the only thing to do is to say “There there, have a margarita,” especially if it’s something that we might not see as quite as big of a deal as you do.
From the sounds of things, it seems as though your boyfriend is basically treating you like a guy… possibly with a hint of condescension for – as he sees it – not being able to handle your own problems and interrupting his precious “fucking-around-on-the-Internet” time.
When you had your conversation about how you wanted him to show you more empathy, did you tell him what you wanted specifically, or did you tell him you wanted more empathy? For some guys, what you’re saying and what they’re hearing are night-and-day different and he may be getting frustrated because he doesn’t get it. To his mind, he has been giving you empathy; he may even think that he’s treating you with respect by trying to give you space or by trying to see the other side so you can work through things rather than trying to go down a checklist, which may feel insincere to him.
You’re his first girlfriend, so he’s likely never had to deal with any of this before… which means that you’re probably going to have to train him a little to understand in no uncertain terms just what it is you want from him, when you want it and how you’d want it delivered. Sometimes the only way guys learn how to understand and anticipate their girlfriend’s emotional needs is to have it drilled into their heads. If someone doesn’t take them by the hand and teach them, they tend to learn by trial and error, usually in the form of failed relationships.
So… yeah, you may actually have to write out that list, if it comes to that. Have a conversation – before something happens and you need comforting – about what exactly it is you need from him. Give him specifics rather than generalities; it will be easier for him to process rather than trying to fumble his way towards what you want or trying to improvise something and accidentally making things worse. It may feel a bit weird to both of you, possibly even a little artificial at first, but once he gets used to the proper displays and application of empathy, it will start to feel much more natural and he’ll be better able to read your moods and needs without slipping into judge-y/problem-solver-y mode.
If he loves you and wants you to be happy, he’ll be willing to learn just how to comfort you in the way you need, not the way he expects.
Good luck.
Don’t forget: if you have a question for Dr. NerdLove, you can call it into the podcast! Record your question or comment at (512) 522-6513.
My husband had the issue in the second letter. I’ve solved it by communicating with him directly and teaching him to ask “what do you need from me?” if he isn’t sure if I want him to solve a problem or just lend an ear. And if he starts doing one thing when I want another, I just tell him.
That is a great compromise!
I think what helps is he’s the only male in his generation. His sibling and all of his cousins are girls so dealing with ladies and our emotions wasn’t a new and frustrating experience for him (I was only his second girl friend and the first was a long distance relationship.)
But all the males in his family are either engineers or small business owners so he still grew up in an environment where you fix things, not just complain about them.
But it still only took one open conversation without accusation to figure this out. I sometimes wonder how marriages work in relationships where people don’t talk to each other openly. I’d be miserable if I couldn’t have a frank conversation with my husband and have the level of trust in him I do. Most relationships, platonic and romantic, would be a lot smoother if people were just honest with each other, IMO.
Yup, this is what I had to do, too. But I taught myself to do something too that helps facilitate the whole process.
Being a “crier,” not a “bottler,” I’ve dealt with the issue in the second letter most my life. In addition to him becoming more empathetic, I realized that there was something I could do to meet men halfway. So with my current boyfriend, whenever I’m upset, have a problem, or need advice, it is my responsibility to state that upfront (between tears) what I need him to do for me in a given crisis, because he ain’t a mind reader.
So, when I’m a mess about something, it is my job to clearly state “I just need you to listen and be sweet right now” OR “I really need your help with something,” one way or the other, so there’s no confusion. Then he knows implicitly whether we’re in comforting or problem-solving mode. He can handle either, it's just psychically knowing which one to be that trips him up
So it’s my job to STATE my intentions/needs, and it’s his job to ASK, in case I ever forget. We work as each other’s safety nets, and between the two of us, we don’t forget often.
With this system, we are both made equally responsible for communicating. We’re now working on implementing something similar for when he’s about to have a temper tantrum so I can either help him work through his crisis, OR get the hell out of the way!
I had a boyfriend who was like this. We had a breakthrough when we finally established when when I said "My friend/boss/insecurities upset me today," what he heard was "this is a problem that you the boyfriend have absolutely no control over, now FIX IT! You're the man, protect me from my problem or you are a failure." He had no idea HOW to fix it, so he panicked. I explained that when I'm upset, I don't WANT him to try to fix the problem. I just "need to vent". I need him to help me calm down. After I am calm, I will either decide that the problem was no big deal, handle it on my own, OR sit down with him and specifically ASK him to help me come up with a solution. Note that this is ask for help, not "fix it for me".
After that conversation, when ever I was upset, I would start the conversation with "I had a crappy day, I need to vent." He would jump into tea and sympathy mode, and felt much more comfortable there, because he understood what I was asking for and knew what I needed. He felt manly for taking care of me, instead of panicked.
Lord, I wish my last boyfriend had been like that. He said he felt wrong for not being able to fix emotional problems and that other women in his life thought he was great to talk to when they had problems. (Of course implying that I was totally defective for needing to be emotional first, then analytical.)
My current boyfriend and domestic partner is *not* like that at all; he listens to me, offers appropriate murmurs and cuddling, and if I say, "Hang on, I'm not done talking yet," he'll settle back down and let me finish what I want to say. In turn, I don't keep things bottled up inside so much and the truly epic "meltdowns" are pretty much a thing of the past.
What sucks is when you've had this conversation with your man, given him the Emergency Sympathy Kit, and discover he doesn't do that kind because flowers are a waste of money and time or because he doesn't need a hug so why should you. It took me 8 years to realize he was beyond help. Don't wait that long; I'll never get my 20s back.
Yep, add me to the list of women who had to walk through this with her man. For me as well, what he'd hear if I had a problem is "How are you going to fix this?" Instead of, "I feel down and I need a little love."
What you need to do is very clearly establish a code with him for "I need some love and attention right now, and here's how you can show me that love and attention best."
Put the dots very close together and give him a map and a crayon. I think most guys are willing to do whatever you need to help you be happy again, they just don't KNOW what you need. And frankly, what you need might be different from what I need, so it is unfair to ask guys to "just be empathetic."
I agree with the Doc, this is a conversation to have when you are not upset. It is also a conversation to have when you are not in the mindset of "Why doesn't he really love me? Because if he did, he would do THIS."
You have to tell him the "this." You also have to be aware of how you're communicating what you need to him.
As far as the "looking bored at the computer." He may be slightly introverted and when faced with "She's upset and I don't know what to do about it because I can't fix it and when I tried to fix it that just made her angry…" He shut down a little and unconsciously looked toward something he uses as a coping mechanism for stress. I wouldn't judge him too harshly for that until you do these things we're suggesting, and you either see an unwillingness to even try to do what you need once it has been spelled out, or you see him resenting that he has to "jump through hoops to make you happy."
Good Luck!
As for our dancing dude,
Relax, she just wanted to dance and didn't want more. If you want to try to hook a girl who is in dance mode, next time greet her with a compliment or a question that engages her before straight up telling her your name.
Something like, "Hey, I really enjoy dancing with you. Do you just do the club thing, or do you like dancing in general?"
That starts a conversation in a way that begins a back and forth conversation in a way that, "Hi, I'm blank…" just doesn't.
Good luck to you too!
"Hey, I really enjoy dancing with you. Do you just do the club thing, or do you like dancing in general?"
That's actually a pretty awesome line, I'll have to try it sometime
Thanks, Jess. I've only been doing the club thing at the Temple for a few months now, and even then, I probably only go about once or twice a month as I'm able. It's still very new territory for me, but I'm learning more every time I go.
Well, if you want to introduce yourself, get a conversation going, and when it seems to gain some momentum, break in with a "I'm Allen, by the way." Let her introduce herself, then get back into the conversation. A little while later as her if you can get her a drink or some water. Dancing gets people hot and thirsty, and offering water makes you seem like a gentleman who is looking out for her comfort instead of trying to get her drunk.
If she says no, don't take offense. In the club scene, girls have to be really careful of people slipping crap into their drinks.
And if you can't get a conversation going, it's okay. Just enjoy the dancing.
In fact, it might help to have him read this Nerdlove blog post. Having the problem dissected like that – from a guy who knows how guys are raised with respect to displays of emotion – might make things a bit clearer for him and understand why judgmental and devil's advocate are not helpful when deployed every single time.
Ah, just about every woman can relate to ES. And it's not just nerd guys and it's not just boyfriends. I've lived with two male roommates for the past six years and they are like brothers to me. However, when I'm going through a hard time and am emotional, it mostly terrifies them. Lol. They do try though, with chocolate and tequila, bless their hearts.
Looks, as a primer to the men, many women deal with their problems by verbalizing them. By saying what was wrong and venting the emotional charge to it, we actually are working through the problem. What we are doing is allowing the emotion to be expressed, dissipate, and stating our problem instead of letting it swirl around in our heads. When we do that, the pressure builds and we are more likely to explode on those closest to us for seemingly no reason. (Ever had your gf fly off the handle at you over something tiny?) So by "venting", we let off the pressure, state the problem and then, after the emotion clears and we've "had a good cry", we will begin to problem solve.
In addition, women's social structures in all of her life, including work, tend to be very complex and often emotionally charged in some way. Women are very sensitive to subtle changes in voice, behavior, or physical stance in those around them. (We've been fighting psychological warfare since we were middle schoolers) Which means you may not see Judy not calling her back as any big deal but in girl code that means Judy is snubbing her because of xxxx…and the web spreads out from there. So where you don't see a problem, there really is one and your girl may not be able to define what is wrong, she can just sense that something bad is happening in her social web.
Lastly, hormones. Yes, ladies, I know this is going to cause outrage but we do go through massive hormonal changes every month. And we all know, that sometimes, our hormones make us a feel like crazy people and, if we are not careful to recognize their effect, can make us react a little more emotionally than we might otherwise. Guys, this is NOT AN EXCUSE for brushing aside your girl's feelings or reaction to an event. Hormones are not going to create false reactions or emotions but they can intensify them. BTW, if you don't understand how girls can be affected by their hormones, think about yourself when your testosterone if flowing really high, like when you are REALLY ready for sex. Now think about feeling that kind of intensity from hormones for 7 days straight and marvel at the females around you!
So a short list for guys:
1. Ask her what's wrong. When she says "Nothing", wait five minutes and ask again. When she says "I don't want to talk about it", give her 15 minutes and then say, "I can tell you are upset about something, I'm here to listen and I love you no matter what." Then you have to LISTEN. But she will feel loved, comforted, and you will probably get sexy time later that night more so than if she was feeling neglected or judged.
2. Don't try to fix it for her. She doesn't want you to fix it. She wants you to listen while she vents. She will fix it herself or if she really does need help, she will ask for it.
3. Don't play devil's advocate or try to make her see the other person's side. She doesn't need you to make her see the "logic" of the situation. She needs you to be on her side. You also don't need to go out charging to take down her enemies, just see her side first.
4. Open up to her as well. By learning to share your life's trials with her, it will make you more able to hear her's and your relationship can be stronger.
5. When in doubt, bring a bowl of chocolate ice cream and a shot of tequila.
As a guy who honestly still struggles somewhat with empathy, this paragraph describes the best way I have ever found of looking at it. Whenever someone vents about a problem they have, I all too easily default to a mindset that goes sort of like "If you don't want the problem solved then you must be getting a kick out of being a victim". Knowing that venting actually helps to solve the problem really helps me to understand why it's important to be able to vent without said vent being critiqued (and in turn part of the value of empathy).
Knowing this is one thing, putting it into practice is another, and when someone I'm with is venting their problems, it'll be hard to avoid defaulting to my usual mindset. But I'll give it a damn good try, and another, and another …
As a guy, I'm not sure I'd give guys as much credit as most of the commenters seem to want to. It's not that women are naturally more emotional, so much as (imo), men repress their emotions. Most men are taught that expressing emotions is unmanly (Similar to "real ladies are always nice and pretty") and won't express their emotions for just about anything. Probably, the harder a guy buries his emotions, the less empathetic he's used to being–'I lie to myself and hold my feelings in whenever I feel upset, why don't you?' leading to 'Why are you talking to me? You want my help with this?'
On a related note, with the right setting and prompts you can usually get guys to let loose–not to start crying, usually, but emote more than usual. In my experience, they're always incredibly relieved to discover that someone besides them feels emotions and is willing to give them understanding.
On another related note–ladies, if you see a guy actually break down and cry, he's in much more pain than you would think. Since 'Real Men' hold their emotions in and 'Real Men' solve their own problems, they tend to deny to themselves that they feel upset or have any big problems until it becomes literally too much to contain. And when the dam breaks, a 'Real Man' is conscious of the fact that they are showing weakness and will still try to restrain his emoting as much as possible–he's almost certainly desperate, terrified, and lonely, but feels that he's a failure if anyone finds out. Men will call him pathetic, women will sneer at him, etc. (also where a lot of MRA resentment originates, imo)
And yes, I am male.
I've actually read somewhere that when you're angry, "venting" doesn't actually make you less angry, and can actually make you feel worse.
Holding in your feelings and dealing with things logically can sometimes be the best way of dealing with something.
Different people deal with things differently. One way isn't necessarily better than the other.
Well, then you have to accept that for many women, we don't feel confident and in the right place to "just deal with something," until we can get the emotion of it out of the way first, then we can deal with it.
Most of our social structure with our friends deals with navigating both our problems and how we feel about them. It's only natural to want to draw our men that we love into that social web. It's part of what makes us feel close to people.
I'm on the fence about this. Venting does make me feel worse at times but holding feelings doesn't really do much either. Also, not all problems have logical solutions or even illogical solutions. Sometimes there are no solutions and you just have to accept that. Venting is helpful for problems where there is no solution.
I believe this is the link about venting that everyone was talking about :http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/08/11/catharsis/
To me, this doesn't sound like the same thing: "Venting by engaging in destructive activity" vs "Venting by vocalizing your emotions while having someone actively listen to you (and comfort you)."
I also read* somewhere about a study that showed that men, on average, tend to feel emotions more strongly than women (I think they did brain scans, and men's brains lit up more when feeling emotions, or something). Men just don't express them as much.
*sorry I don't have sources for these. I promise I didn't make them up.
I'm a woman and I actually tend towards this with my friends. I have to strike kind of a mid-way pose, because while I'm totally willing to "there, there," when someone is upset, I'm a) not willing to do it forever when a friend refuses to act proactively on their own behalf (which is, I think, the kinder route in the long run), and b) I'm not all that good at it, so I usually try to do something to comfort them physically instead of say palliative words — hugs, cookies, something concrete.
Flurk, I lost the last half of my comment, where I talk about my relationship with venting and my mom. She's a lot like me, so what I do is say "I just need to vent" and then I get a friendly ear instead of solutions; she does the same in turn.
Yeah, for as much as I have my girlfriend's backs, I also have little tolerance for emotional leeches.
Venting is a lot like therapy. Problems are voiced aloud, and as your brain organizes the thoughts, emotions, and intentions for verbalization, it's also creating solutions to your problems. You'll notice therapists rarely tell you how to solve problems, they let you talk them out. Mostly by allowing your brain to discover the "fix it" pattern organically. You can get this same result from venting. Men unfortunately have been conditioned that this form of self-help is wrong & weak. By explaining that by listening to her vent he IS helping "fix it" might smoothe some of the cross-communication.
Something that partners can do is ask "Do you want sympath or advice?" at the start of venting/empathy sessions. It sounds jarring, but it clarifies needs & expectations early. It feels extremely weird having to micro-detail your emotional needs, but this is something that needs to happen at the beginning of every relationship- until you learn each other's shorthand.
The advantage to therapy is that therapists get less tired of venting than friends and family members and are usually better trained to handle people in the very emotional state. Lay people, even if they love you dearly, might not be able to deal with it as well as a therapist.
…my god this just explained almost every fight I've ever had with my mother. She deals with problems/emotions like a guy. I deal in standard feminine fashion as described here. Inevitably this descends into shouting and tears and me feeling hurt and her being frustrated and suddenly this pattern all makes sense. I don't know that it's particularly fixable, since she's my mom and not terribly inclined to listen to me, but just understanding what's going on helps.
(The fights it doesn't explain boil down to her not liking that I'm a) a geek and b) a lesbian, but that's even less fixable.)
It is awesome to read how people learned to communicate through these problems!
As a lady, I have been more guilty of being "they guy" in these situations.
And I feel the urge to pick at the whole "Men are from Mars/Woman are from Venus" trope a bit because, while it describes a cultural observation, it does not provide a realistic reason for the differences and many people confuse these cultural observations as being universal, inescapable, biological facts about men and women.
I think it is more useful to say "Men and Women are from Earth. But for some reason, we teach Men to act like they are from Mars and Women to act like they are from Venus."
Boys are taught to be independent, stoic and solve problems on their own. Girls are often told they don't really have problems, just emotional reactions. Although I think these trends are subsiding.
Nevertheless, these differences are taught and we have have to deal with/dismantle them in relationships…in this case, heterosexual relationships.
In my own relationships, I have been in "the guy's" shoes. I have been more solution oriented and pro-active than my previous boyfriends (yay me) But when my boyfriends came to me to complain about how much he hated work/their weight/their band/their classes my response was not sympathetic. My response was "So what are you going to do about it?" – which is a jerk-response! But, to me, it seemed appropriate, not insensitive.
"You noted a problem. What is your course of action so that I might support it? You don't have one? Well, allow me to assist you in planning one."
And I was often confused about why they were so frustrated with me.
My current boyfriend has an excellent balance of problem solving and empathy. He understands why I immediately look for a solution rather than listen to his feelings and walked me through the process of shutting-up-and-listening.
So when he confided in me his feelings of anxiety he explained that, before dealing with it practically, he needed to process it emotionally and wanted some support or soundboard. This made sense to me! And it was easily to follow the tone of the discussion from venting to planning to action. A lot of "venting" usually turns into exploring new ideas or digging up deep feelings and developing new perspectives that later help us solve or address problems more effectively.
It has been a balance of something most people would consider "opposing traits."
And it has been incredible useful in communicating, encouraging and enabling a lot of other people in my life.
"You’re his first girlfriend, so he’s likely never had to deal with any of this before… which means that you’re probably going to have to train him a little to understand in no uncertain terms just what it is you want from him"
I prefer to do the complete opposite and let my girlfriends know that I'm not their therapist, and that unless something truly awful has occurred I'm not going to sit there and listen to complaints about situations that they've most likely conjured up themselves and should spend energy fixing instead of whining about.
Guys, you should consider the above over submitting to the idea that men need to be "trained" into supporting their women whenever they cry about how their coworker was a bitch.
Because I don't know about you, but I like my women smart, capable, strong and mentally sound, and the only way to find them is to filter out those who are not.
To be clear I'm not advocating machismo, but I think it's utterly idiotic to try to shape men into something they're not. We're perfectly fine the way we are, and if anything more men need to stop feeling like they need to change themselves and instead start taking pride in their logical, pragmatic selves.
I think this goes hand-in-hand with abundance mentality, and I think that once guys reach that point of feeling like women are as exchangeable to them as men are to women, they'll also start feeling more comfortable being proud of their true nature, and not agreeing with articles like these.
How much harm is there in being a friendly ear that offers hugs and/or dinner after a rough day?
If you aren't practiced from dealing with the small things, how would you handle the big things?
The harm is that it's annoying and emotionally draining having to listen to someone else's problem on a frequent basis.
If there's one thing I've learned in my years of dating women, it's that they're generally notoriously bad at solving their own problems yet somehow find the time and energy to constantly complain about them.
Where the obvious choice would be to break up with, ignore or get away from whatever problem they're facing, women often believe they can just ride it out like a bad day, and on top of that kid themselves into thinking that we'll be happy to join them in their perpetual loop of reliving past mistakes.
I think that accepting this typical behavior is the equivalent of reducing women to little kids. They're adults for crying out loud, and should be treated as such.
"I have been visibly upset four times in the last two years in front of him"
"many women deal with their problems by verbalizing them. By saying what was wrong and venting the emotional charge to it, we actually are working through the problem. What we are doing is allowing the emotion to be expressed, dissipate, and stating our problem instead of letting it swirl around in our heads"
I don't think you realize that allowing someone to vent and giving them a bit of support is what normal, healthy, capable adults do. There's a difference between someone coming home after a horrible day, and needing to sit down and let out the build-up of emotional pressure, and then sit down and think about how to fix their problem– and someone who comes home and rants non-stop and doesn't try to fix the problems, just blames everyone else.
The former is fine, and should be encouraged or at least accepted. The latter is what a little kid would do.
A little social support goes a long way to helping someone slide smoothly out of 'anger mode' to 'productive mode'. We are not 'notoriously bad' at solving our problems, but we have to remove the overwhelming emotional component first. If you can't empathize with that, then that's something you ought to work on, because it's important that you realize that– yes– people DO process things differently.
"How much harm is there in being a friendly ear that offers hugs and/or dinner after a rough day?"
Short answer: Too much of a good thing can be bad for both parties.
Long answer:
I have a sister who, until recently, never ever seemed to solve her own problems. Even when she got helpful advice from our family, even when she sought advice, she always seemed to disregard it completely. Yet she never hesitated to complain about her problems to … well, I would say "anyone who'd listen" but considering how many people stopped actually listening eventually, it was more like "anyone within earshot or in her contacts or friended on Facebook".
This has actually partially contributed to the mindset I mentioned in an earlier comment that I have a tendency to default to: "If you don't want the problem solved then you must be getting a kick out of being a victim". Because I swear, she must have gotten a kick out of being a victim, and I sincerely doubt that she is the only one ever to have done so.
I just want to double-check, you're not suggesting empathy in all situations in which someone vents their problems and doesn't explicitly ask for help, right? Because there comes a point at which seeking empathy is no longer warranted and it becomes laziness at best, manipulative and possibly even abusive at worst. Personally, I would say that point is the third time you complain about the problem to the same person without showing any signs of trying to solve or get over it. Or a week after first complaining about the problem to someone and still not showing any signs of trying to solve or get over it. Whichever comes first. Or if you have better suggestions for when that point is, feel free to make them.
And for the record, although the person I used in my example is female, this empathy-seeking beyond a reasonable point is no better when done by a man.
I wasn't going to respond to this, but given your post below it seems like you might be feeling better enough to think differently about these issues. Here's some thoughts I hope you will find helpful.
I don't think there's anything wrong with seeking out friends and romantic partners who deal with the world in the same way you do. If you're an extreme fixer, and your friends are fixers, then of course you should be dating women who are fixers. (And yes, we're out there – I'm one. My husband has to explicitly tell me when he wants me to be the empathic listener, because my first reaction to any problem is to make a list.)
The problem is, extreme fixers are relatively rare. I bet that some of your fix-it-seeming friends have other people (not you!) they go to for empathy and affection. That's totally okay for a friend, but you probably don't want your romantic partner seeking out somebody else for her intimate emotional needs. If that's important to her and you're not providing, you're giving her a good reason to leave.
I think you're taking one of the two ethical choices here: being very honest about what you're willing to do, and letting your partners make the decision about whether it's worth compromising to be with you. The other ethical choice is to try to get better at being emotionally connected / supportive in order to expand your dating pool. Personally, I think the latter is probably better for your romantic life in the long run, but the former is perfectly honorable. I just happen to think it's part of what's making you sad.
Speaking personally, I've found it incredibly enriching to be in a relationship with an empathic man. He's shown me a whole new way of seeing the world. It's made me a better friend, sister, daughter, and someday-mother. It's not necessarily bad to love someone who is different from you, if you can work out ways to handle situations where your expectations differ. He tells me when he's just looking for a hug and a listening ear; I help him frame his problems as solvable, and figure out what the next step is. We're both better off for it. I'll never be as empathic as he is, and he won't ever be a fixer like I am, but that's okay – we have each other.
(For the record: the part where I diverge sharply from you is when you start talking about "men" and "women" in general – but that's probably another conversation.)
Also, what makes women think it's okay to send out mixed signals like they do on the dance floor? It's totally messed up to get sexual with strangers one second, only to completely blow them of the next. It makes no sense at all.
Because dancing isn’t sex. Hell, even if you WERE having or about to have sex, she would still have the right to change her mind (as would you.)
I'm not saying that every woman who grinds my leg is required to sleep with me. I'm saying that it's messed up that women even do this.
What's the point of getting sexual with someone on the dance floor, only to blow them off after the dance? It's just mean, misleading and weird.
Because the point of getting sexual on the dance floor is to blow off steam and have some fun, not necessarily to actually get sex. Context is important.
You HAVE to separate those two things. If you don't want to be "misled" on the dance floor, then dancing with other people might not be for you.
Exactly how is dancing sexually with a member of the opposite sex "blowing off steam"?
If anything it's building up sexual tension.
The same way anything is blowing off steam. It's fun and some people like to do it.
Dror, doing some dirty dancing with somebody isn't sending a mixed signal. A mixed signal is if a person says no to a date but stil flirts outrageously with the person they rejected afterwards. Its a mixed signal because the person rejected has no idea how the other person sees them.
Dancing is phyiscal. A lot of it is simulated sex. A lot of religions are opposed to dancing for that reason. Before pre-marital sex became common, dancing was one of the few acceptable ways couples could touch before marriage.
I've noticed some strange inconsistencies in Nerdlove's articles.
Women are allowed to call men creeps to protect themselves from assholes, but men aren't allowed to call women crazy because it's oppressive.
Men aren't allowed to feel entitled to sex, but women are apparently entitled to emotional masturbation (and men need to be "trained" into listening to them venting).
Keep it coming, Doc.
I'm sorry about the comments I made. I've been struggling for a long time with depression and I sometimes get into a really dark place where I write resentful posts. I always regret it afterwards.
So, do you want to be treated with empathy and respect, or do you want us to treat you the way you treat women?
If the latter, than stop harming me! Its annoying and emotionally draining having to listen to someone else's problem on a frequent basis!
Feels good to be treated like that, huh!
I'm not venting. I'm just apologizing for my shitty comments. They're not coming from a good place. That's all I can say.
All your bitching about how childish women are and how unfair it is that we get to call guys who cross our physical and emotional boundaries creeps and how annoying women are for daring to dance at a dance club certainly sounds like venting to me!
I'm sorry.
Thank you for the apology. I think a lot of people get into bad places / impulses with stuff, where from the inside it seems like they think they are being reasonable / justified, but what they are really doing is venting, self-validating, and holding up a double standard. The first step to dealing with that is to do exactly what you're doing here – seeing how it sounds from the outside, and considering your actions in the cold light of day – but we're hardwired to find it extremely difficult to to that.
So respect for that. It's a hard road to that kind of self-improvement but an extremely worth while one.
The problem is that I get stuck in this mindset for weeks, and get into a lot of nasty arguments online. Eventually I just blow up and regret it all. I hate it, and always wish I could undo everything. It's something I've been struggling with for a long time.
I know exactly what you mean, because I've done the same thing myself. Seriously, have you seen a professional about this? Because it really, really helped me.
I seriously applaud you; you are the rare, rare person online to own up bad remarks to a having a bad day/month/decade. I really appreciate you coming out and apologizing.
Even in the lowest mindset please, PLEASE remember that women aren't your enemy. There will always be jerks, male or female, but on the whole women don't deserve the contempt and hate they seem to get in heapfuls, expecially online.
I feel for you; we've all been in low places and I will give you the advice that I found that works though you may not like it, take or leave it as you will. Find a life counselor or a behavorial counselor; I did and I think it seriously saved my life. Even for one or two sessions, they can help you map out where you want your life to go and bring up thoughts and thought patterns you didn't even know you were doing that is harming you and your quality of life.
Don't put it off, like I did for years. I waited too late and it took a really long time to get my life back on track and I found myself wishing I had reached out and found a counselor sooner. Don't wait.
Wherever you are in life, I hope you figure out something that works and brings you balance.
And I'm saying if you don't like being treated like that, then own up to the fact that you treat women going through the same exact thing like shit.
I get what you're saying – been there, done that. However, you need to recognize the hypocrisy you've shown is NOT COOL.
Everyone deserves empathy and respect and comfort from their loved ones, and vice versa. You told us you show you loved one no such thing and I'm pointing out to you how shitty it is to be treated like that.
I've been thinking about this for a while today.
Here's what I think. A guy who thinks it is a burden to let his girl express her emotions and soothe her is akin to a woman who thinks it is a burden to have sex with her man.
Now, as a disclaimer. I'm a girl, and I'm of the opinion that so long as sex isn't physically uncomfortable or painful at the time, you should go for it with your dedicated partner even if you are not "entirely" in the mood. As Maude Lebowski says it's a "zesty" enterprise. But more than that, constantly rejecting the physical affections of the guy you say you love is telling him that you are unwilling to do something that soothes him, takes stress off, and makes him feel love and connection to you. I think giving that is always a good thing, and BONUS, it equals sexy times even if you're not swinging from the rafters.
That said, men need to understand that when a girl needs a little emotional support, it is because it calms her, takes away stress, and makes her feel love and connection to you. Keeping that from her is just as cruel.
Now there are people who take both sex and emotional baggage to extremes, and you need to be aware that you should be with a partner that matches your need for these things, and that you are able to meet their needs as well.
There are emotional drama leeches out there. They are miserable to try to deal with. But if your girl is coming to you four or five times A YEAR asking for a little encouragement and support, is that really too much to ask? How much do you want sex?
You're filling the same need for intimacy in a different way for her.
(pro tip: the more intimate she feels with you mentally usually ups the more intimate she gets physically.)
So how about we all look at our loved ones and start thinking "How can I make their life better today?" as long as the other partner is doing the same.
That sounds good to me.
"and I'm of the opinion that so long as sex isn't physically uncomfortable or painful at the time, you should go for it with your dedicated partner even if you are not "entirely" in the mood. "
So, let your self be used like a masturbatory aid IF a dude show a modicum of decency? So, pussy should still be a reward for "good" behavior? Way to set the bar so low it's six feet under.
You may want to look up \”GGG\” or \”good, giving and game\”.
I had never heard of GGG until a little trip through the Googlesphere just now.
It isn't really what I'm talking about, not in a true sense.
First of all, I have never had sex with my husband because he showed a "modicum of decency," or he "earned it" or EVER as a "reward" for good behavior. Frankly the idea of any of that absolutely revolts me.
I have sex with my husband because he's a sexy guy whom I physically enjoy and I get off on our physical relationship together. In fact, we are both still raging hot for one another after ten years.
Sex is not a commodity that I give out like a dog treat.
It is something we enjoy together. In fact, our "code" to one another is to refer to "playtime" or "wanting to play with you." Intimacy is something fun we share together, not a chore we have to do for the other person.
What I meant by "Go ahead and have sex even if you aren't entirely in the mood." Is that most people are sexual beings and sexy times start in our heads. If you are not mentally in the mood, chances are you can get mentally in the mood pretty quick if you are open and think of it as having some fun. There are side benefits to this, in that when you are intimate, you feel close physically, emotionally, and mentally to your partner.
I know my guy likes to express what he feels about me physically, and shutting him down from that physical connection is akin to someone trying to say "I love you." and having the other person stare blankly at them and say "Okay, so what's your point?"
The flip side of that coin is that I like it when my guy expresses himself physically and even if I'm tired or having a bad day, that expression of love can turn around my mood pretty quick.
And even on days when sex isn't swinging from the rafters, it still feels pretty damn good, so why not?
If any of this was only about getting "rocks off" that can be done easily solo in the shower. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not responsible for my husband's physical "needs" though I find that term antiquated and a little silly. I am responsible for responding to my partner with love and affection when he's trying to show me love and affection.
And so long as everything feels good to do it, I stand by what I said, do it.
I have had nights where there was no way. I was too tired or ill, and my hubby understands it and doesn't throw a toddleresque temper tantrum that he didn't get to "play." And the reverse has been the case as well.
The one part I do think comes close to what I was saying regarding GGG is the implication that being open and generous to the needs of your partner in all aspects of your life can lead to a smooth relationship, but the reverse has to be true as well.
I also wanted to clarify what I meant by "burden". I have seen relationships where a girl is having sex with a guy a certain way during the courtship, then as soon as they are married decides that's no longer her "job" because they are now married and he can't go anywhere. (Which I absolutely don't understand) That's what I meant by a girl who thinks a having sex is a burden. Being in an intimate relationship with someone usually implies, well, intimacy, so I don't understand a bait and switch attitude.
On the same note, I don't understand guys who think soothing the person they are supposed to "love" is a chore. Again, this is an intimate relationship. That is another form of intimacy. It's not right to think "I should have one form of intimacy on my terms whenever I want it, but I'm not going to give any intimacy in the way my partner desires in return because I think it is stupid or icky, or I'm not in the mood to put up with that."
That equation is wrong whichever direction you come at it. It only leads to bitterness and a hollow feeling inside whether we're talking about sex or talking with your partner.
If you are unwilling to GIVE in a relationship, what are you doing in one?
That said, it is also fair to receive and wish for your desires to be taken seriously. The trick is keeping everything in balance so everyone feels safe, loved, and satisfied.
The swiftness that Dancing Girl had in shutting down conversation suggests to me that she probably had a boyfriend and thought it was a kindness to shut it down as quickly as possible rather than give you false hope. Or some other reason she is 100% certain she's not interested. When women shut you down that fast, it's a mercy and doesn't mean anything bad. If she shuts you down before you've had a chance to blow it or creep her out, that means she may even think you're cute and wants to terminate before it gets interesting, because she just can't.
This would not be surprising to me considering my apparent ability to only find women in relationships and women with kids–the two kinds of women I will not date.
I agree. I can't speak for all women, but I never mean to tease a guy on the dance floor. Like you said, sometimes you just get caught up though and hands roam a little too far. The mercy shutdown is the quickest way for us to ease our guilt and not make it any worse.
Or maybe she was just socially awkward and has no idea how to carry on a conversation.
My husband is somewhat similar to the woman-who-needs-some-empathy’s boyfriend. I attribute this to his particular personality more than to him being male, bit I do think its exacerbated by how males are socialized. Anyway how I deal with it is use logic back on him – with some introspection, I can know why x terrible thing makes me very upset so that I can explain it to him very logically, filling in every gap so he doesn’t need to make any assumptions for himself or think I can’t deal with it. This is particularly useful when his behavior is what has upset me, which happens sometimes because he can be very disdainful of people he thinks are (behaving) stupidly, which often means ‘not the way he would behave’. Given that we have very different personalities, and that my personality does not take kindly to disdain, the introspection can help a lot in explaining stuff that would be totally intuitive to me about empathy and break it down to why I need this support or feel this way or why z response from him was not at all helpful. Sometimes I do have to suffer through a lot of stubborn thought patterns that hold his way of thinking add more internally correct and me having to defend why my feelings are actually ‘xreasonable’ from an outside perspective, because apparently them being mine isn’t enough *roll eyes*. Yet.
I am a woman and I am SO the "I want to fix it" partner in my relationship. I used to drive my husband crazy by trying to solve his problems when he just wanted to talk about them! To deal with this, we've worked out a code. If he's upset, he tells me explicitly whether he wants "fix-it" help or "there-there" help. I'm better at the former, but I've learned how to do the latter through practice. It helps that he's able to tell me pretty clearly what he wants. So, for example, I know that if he wants me to "there-there," it's okay for me to just listen and hug him and not say much; I don't have to feel anxious that I'm not doing enough to help. When he's feeling better, he points out some things that I did well and some that I can continue to work on.
tl;dr – Empathy is a skill and I'm incredibly grateful that my husband helps me practice it. But I'm still the one who has to do the work of learning.
It's absolutely a geek thing. Is the boyfriend without empathy on the autistic spectrum? As someone who has dated several guys who are, this is a common thread. Logic Is Better, and Emotions Are Scary And Bad. Geeks love to be Spock, because anything that takes over your head and makes you do things you aren't sure why you do them is Scary. Having perfect control is Safe and Secure. Also, some autistic spectrum folks just don't do the mirror-emotions thing, they don't feel much empathy, they have to compensate, all that. This guy doesn't know how to compensate. Combine lack-of-innate-empathy with Logic-Is-Better and add a dash of low initiative, and you have a guy who can't easily identify with you, thinks the correct answer is to fix the problem, and when that doesn't work, he doesn't have the initiative to come up with a different option or try to learn how you want to be treated.
This is a special case of human, and you have to tell them what you want ahead of time, or else beg them to start doing some reading and researching how this whole empathic-reaction thing works. You can't get knee-jerk biological reactions, but usually people can learn to act as if they have them.
Number one complaint that I hear from my fellow girls: my boyfriend just doesn't get it (venting, empathy, a need for him to read minds and show up with gifts and things for cheering up).
I gotta say, I think it's super frustrating just listening to that all the time from my friends talking about someone else, so I can only imagine what it's like for the guy to hear that about himself. It tends to come out really critical (and maybe even whiny) when it's really not his fault that you have a need that somehow got lost in communication (not to say it's necessarily your fault either, but no guy is a mind reader, just like you can't read his mind that the game's on in 10 minutes so he's trying to skip the foreplay and get to the show already). Relationships only work when you talk and work out a compromise (like letting him watch the game if he'll jump you during halftime). This isn't to say that venting isn't a healthy thing, it's just not everyone's instinct or cure. Personally, when I have a problem I want to fix it or try to grab a little perspective to help me get over it, so that's my first instinct when someone comes to me with their issues and most people do the same because of the whole treat others how you'd like to be treated thing we all learned in kindergarten along with sharing is caring and don't eat the paste. Oddly enough, I'm told I'm really great at empathy though. Why? Because it's a skill that takes practice and keen observation since every person is different and has different needs which you only learn through time and experience. Unfortunately, I've had the pleasure (dripping sarcasm) of being in between my mother and sister when they get into a fight zillions of times every year, so I've gotten really good at not really saying anything while they bitch about how the other one is totally off base and how dare she even suggest that it would or would not be tacky to slip an insert about gift registries into an invite (no, I'm not kidding, this was a real fight that had them not speaking for two whole weeks and yet I managed to sympathize with both, agree with neither, and broker peace).
But since you're writing in to a date doctor, you're asking for a problem solver, so here's my take: no guy is the same, just like you're not the same as every girl. Tell him what you need, explain why you need it if he's not getting it, and work with him on it while being patient (since these things take time) and understanding (because he's different than you). Even better, try to put yourself in his shoes and get in touch with what he needs from you to help deal with his problems. It'll not only help you understand where he's coming from when you pout because he didn't immediately drop what he was doing to snuggle you on the couch with that pint of ice cream and/or bottle of tequila at the slightest hint of a sigh, it'll help you be more empathetic to him in general. The door goes both way ladies, and sometimes when you're in need of comfort, he's in need of a comforting hand to show him the way.
But to be fair, if you're still playing tug of war with his keyboard after all of that when something major like a death blows your world apart, your relationship is almost certainly doomed.
Some guys have been very socialised that emotions = bad, too, so they react by either using logic or by hiding. My mother has "trained" my father (her words, not mine) over 30 years of marriage to actually respond in a way that is helpful to her (versus telling her to just stop it or ignoring her completely). Incidentally, this came to a head early on, when my mother's mom died and my father was completely unable to be supportive of my mom in her grief. They're still married decades later, so I'd say that there's hope, though. Sometimes, that lack of empathy can just be the straw that breaks the camel's back, though. I once dated a guy whose response to my panic after a minor electrical fire was to go lock himself in his room so he didn't have to see me freaking out. I wasn't hysterically crying or screaming, but I was shaking and very visibly upset and his immediate response to seeing emotions is to run away. For me, that was the end.