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You know what intimidates the hell out of guys trying to meet new women?
Large groups.
If you’re not the most outgoing of people, if you’re a little on the socially awkward side, there’s nothing quite as bad as seeing someone you’re interested in and realizing that she’s there with a group of friends. Maybe it’s all girls, maybe it’s all guys, maybe it’s a mixed group. Doesn’t matter. You just know that if you want to talk to her, you’re going to have to wade in there and face down the judgemental stares of not just one but many people. You’ve just increased your risk of being shot down exponentially; now you don’t have to worry about the girl you like shooting you down, you have to worry about her friends doing it. And worse, now you’re going to get shot down in front of an audience. And you just know they’re going to be laughing and talking about you afterwards, right?
Better to just wait until you can get her alone… so now you’re hovering in the background and her friends are starting to notice you’re there and they’re moving away and ohgodtheycansmelltheloseronmeandimgoingtodiealone…
Chill out Beavis.
Handling groups, whether it’s on campus, at parties or at a bar, isn’t that difficult. In fact, if you play your cards right, it can actually make things easier.
Don’t Fear The Group
I get how intimidating groups can be, especially if you’re not especially outgoing or socially experienced. You’ve taken what can already be a stressful, anxiety-provoking situation and doubled down on it by ramping up the number of people involved. Unfortunately though, if you want to get better with women1 you need to accept the fact that you’re going to have to learn how to handle groups.
Women rarely go out alone; whether it’s at parties or out on the town, women are almost always out in groups. More often than not, they’re going to feel much more comfortable with a group of their friends than going out solo. Going out with friends means safety in a world where women have to be on guard all the time. Having a group of friends around means that she has people to look out for her in case she drinks too much – or worse, someone spikes her drink. It means that she has a shield in case some asshole starts bothering her and doesn’t take the hint that he should go away. It means that if things do go well with someone, then she has people who know where she went and who she went with. Going out with friends means having a wingwoman. It means always having a familiar face in the crowd to talk to. It means a roving party.
“Here’s to a night of free drinks and bad decisions!”
If you want to talk to someone you like and she’s in a group… well, you just have to learn to handle the group. You could always just hang around and hope to catch her when she’s on her own – when she’s going to get a drink or coming back from the bathroom – but not only are you risking looking like a creeper by hovering around, you also increase the likelihood that her friends are going to come over and take her away.
Don’t Sweat Rejection
Most of the nightmare scenarios that come from approaching a group usually involve flashbacks to the Mean Girls and Jocks from high school who will not only reject you but shred your ego in the process. You can already picture them laughing at your audacity, insulting you with scathing cut-downs as everybody turns to point and laugh.
After having made literally thousands of approaches, I can tell you that this almost never happens, especially if you are approaching them to be sociable rather than to actively pick up one of the group. You have better odds of being struck by lightning than running into a collection of assholes who think that destroying your soul is the best thing that could happen that night.
The worst you can really expect is a perfunctory “hey” and short, non-committal responses before they go back to talking amongst themselves and ignoring you. It’s not terribly pleasant to be sure, but hardly the ego-killing nightmare scenario that we tend to picture.
- or guys; women get just as intimidated by approaching a guy surrounded by his bros as guys do approaching a large group of girls [↩]
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This isn't specific to this article, but I just want to say, my social skills have dramatically improved since I started reading your blog, and this one among others definitely nails the things I'm weakest at.
Thanks, Dr. Nerdlove!
I second this!
I think its actually better to approach a mixed gender group than one composed only of women. In a mixed gender group, the women are more likely open to men's company because they are already hanging out with men. A women only group might just be interested for a girl's night out and not really want any men to interject themselves into the group. This is more theoretic than practical on my part because I go to bars to drink with friends rather than meet women.
Naw, I go out with my girls all the time and as long as you're sociable to everyone and not trying to pick a member out of the pack, the group will be willing to let you share the entertainment. Everyones there to enjoythemselves, after all.
Have a couple good jokes or short stories ready and be prepaired to buy a round, (my group, at least, finds it easier to have one person pay for a round and another buys the next and so on,) you won't find much rejection.
We've heard everything from: "What's all the giggling about? I haven't started talking yet!" to "Did you just order a stick of butter?!?" We got some enjoyment out of every encounter. Coz, seriously, if the group of girls wanted to be left alone they would be in a livingroom somewhere giggling and drinking; not in a bar.
Yeah, but if you play your cards right, and the girl you are interested in is single and interested, you have the potential of having a whole group of women turning around after you left going…
OMG!!! He was totally into you!!!! He was kinda cute too, and a nice guy. So you two are totally going out, right?!?
This gives the girl extra comfort in her upcoming interactions with you because her friends have "backed up" her attraction.
In order to do this effectively, you do need to be charming, and you do need to woo the ENTIRE group. Your attention should be about a 75/25 split with the group winning out.
They'll know what you were up to, but that's not always a bad thing so long as the group and the individual at all times seemed comfortable and willing to engage in the conversation/flirtation
You know, I'm a pretty shy person overall and I have a tough time making conversation and stuff at parties and I think this translates pretty well to that situation, too. I think I'll just disregard the parts about singling out one of the group for romantic attentions
Every time I read these articles it just enforces my feeling of women just not being worth the trouble. How is a normal guy supposed to entertain a whole group of women? Furthermore, why should we even have to spend so much freaking time learning how to do these things while women just have to be themselves and have fun?
And that's another thing, "just have fun and enjoy the process." How is a guy supposed to enjoy going to a bar when they're constantly being judged by the women around them and play all these stupid games? We go to bars to meet women, but they don't exactly make it easy for us!
"Smile."
"Give her a good conversation."
"Make her laugh."
"Be outgoing."
"If she snarls at you for saying hi, just ignore her! That's her problem!"
"Show her that you're a good guy."
"Don't creep her out."
"Show her that you care about her personality."
"Don't scout the room because it looks like you're on a prowl."
"Approach and entertain the whole group."
"Acknowledge the whole group."
"Shrug off rejection."
"Be confident."
"Accept it if she calls you a creep, because that's your fault."
Och and my favorite: "Just talk to her like a normal human being." As if being yourself would help.
Interaction with women just makes me so depressed and I hate having all these god damn demands on me. I wish I could just put on some damn makeup like women do and have the opposite sex pay some attention to me, compliment me on my looks and want to get to know me. I don't care if I'd get creepy people approaching me. I just want some god damn attention and not get treated like shit every time I go out. I've had women freaking SNARL at me for just saying hi.
But no, I'm a guy. I'm not supposed to get to enjoy these things. I'm a piece of shit and not worthy of being treated like a human being by women.
God damn it. I wish I could just kill my libido somehow and live a happy life.
…you do realise that 90% of what you're describing is all in your head, right? Most people are not going to even notice you're there at the bar unless you start talking or hovering – and sometimes not even then. Most girls are going to be fairly absorbed in chatting with their friends, not spending all their energy checking out and passing sentence on every guy in the bar (we'd rather spend it elsewhere, thanks). You've also touched on multiple points that the Doc has covered in other posts, notably the false perception that women have it easy in the dating world, and issues with self confidence and fear.
I understand your frustration – I've never dated myself. But I'd still suggest you drop the bitter attitude (nothing kills interest faster than bitterness), have a read through some of the Doc's other posts, and try to work on your confidence. Confidence really is key – both for you and as an attractor for the ladies you wish to meet.
I'm unclear why you believe a fair system would be one where vagina is delivered to your house periodically, free of charge, and not attached to one of those stupid women. God, why should you have to befriend a woman like you have to a man? It's not like they're people!
Seriously, they make Fleshlights. If the process of giving a shit about a mere woman bothers you so much, buy a disembodied vagina. It's clearly what you want.
In all fairness, he never did say anything about sex. Thanks to the Internet Porn is available anyway, it is obvious he's not only after that. If everything was so singular as you try to shoehorn it, we'd already be a dead species. Reducing men to be generally impulsive driven, sex hungry creatures is not very nice of you either. I'm sure you'd not be happy if such a lable was applied to you.
It is just that the list he just posted does not exist for male friends. You basically need another rulebook for female friendships because such relations are a lot more complicated even if they're not romantic. I'm really sorry that not everyone gets born with an internal list of things that naturally work with women as well
.
And do you think that most women don't find friendships with men a lot more complicated than friendships with other women? I certainly do. We don't get rulebooks either. No one's saying there aren't difficulties, only that there are difficulties on both sides–women don't have it easier. We just have it different.
Mel: It's a lot easier when you have the freedom to never be wrong. Ever.
I think its better to say that some people have a better sense of social intuition and how to interact while others have a much poorer sense for a variety. Some people have parents who took time to teach them all sorts of social skills when they were growing up and others did not. Some people were better at observing and copying good social skills than others. Some just have an innate intuition for these matters.
Very true. I suspect there are just as many socially awkward women as there are men. I've certainly known lots of them!
No, I honestly don't think so. Maybe I'm confused by all the anecdotal evidence I could list (All my girlfriends had a large number of male friends) and I also noticed that some guys find it easier to form a friendship with someone who's already "taken". I know, that probably sounds very stupid.
I'm not going to pretend I know, but I've been subject to a lot of such experiences and thus find it hard to believe that there is so much symmetry in this. But I'm not pretending to know it any better
.
I think by definition there has to be symmetry. Given that half the (cisgendered, straight) population is male and half female, then for every single guy there's a single girl. She's doing the same thing he is, lamenting how hard it is to find a good boy/girl and how complicated the social thing is. Sooner or later someone has to suck up the fact that it may not be easy but you can't wait for someone else to do the work for you.
Also, when you approach someone with the attitude of, "I can't believe I have toTALK to you to extract some time with your sex organs", don't be surprised if they're not interested. Do you want to hang out with someone who clearly believes talking to you is beneath them?
I totally agree with the above. And to give a woman's perspective: believe me, we don't have it anywhere near as easy as you think. I'm not super model gorgeous, but I'm reasonably attractive, and when I go out with make-up and nice clothes on I pretty much never have guys approach me (as in, I think it's happened maybe five times in the last fifteen years, since I was sixteen, and most of those were really strange guys who probably went up to any woman, like the guy who started talking to 18-year-old me about getting married after three brief sentences exchanged).
As a woman, you have the most conflicting standards to adhere to. Smile and be friendly, but don't be too obvious about which guy you like or he won't feel the "thrill of the chase". If you're a shy girl, too bad, you have to learn how to flirt and make appealing conversation or even if a guy does approach you he'll get discouraged/bored and move on. But if a guy does come over to talk to you, you have to be very careful about how friendly you are (am I smiling too much? Will that comment sound too flirtatious?) because if you're friendly but don't end up clicking with him, an awful lot of the time he'll end up getting hostile if you don't want to keep hanging out with him (you think we don't get snarled at? And also sworn at and insulted and sometimes followed around–I had to leave an event I was enjoying to get away from one of those five guys I mentioned, who wouldn't leave me alone after I gave him a minute of my time).
Guys like you say, "Women should approach us and do some of the work" but that puts us in an even more tricky situation. When a woman does go up to a guy, we have to constantly be worried that the guy will assume this is an expression of definite all-consuming interest rather than just wanting to see if we click, and then get hurt or angry if we don't actually want to continue the conversation/go out/have sex once we've found out a little. Mixed signals! How dare we "pretend" to be so very interested if we're not really willing to give you a shot! (Never mind that the approaching and starting a conversation was the giving you a shot.). And that's not even mentioning the even greater fear that we've approached one of the guys who thinks forcing the issue is okay and will take our brief indication of interest as an excuse to follow us around, harass us, and maybe even physically hurt us. And then it'd be our "fault", because we approached them in the first place.
So if you want to trade, I'm sure there are a whole lot of women who'd take your "I have to be friendly and respectful to both the woman *and* her friends, and often get rejected, sometimes in a mean voice!" over "I feel like I have no control at all over which guys I get to know, and I have to be cautious with those who come to me because a significant percentage of them will get pissed off at me if I'm not interested, and if I try to take control and go up to guys, I'm putting myself at an even greater risk of harassment, rape, and/or murder for which a large portion of society will blame me rather than the perpetrator."
Mel, great post! This is the best breakdown of how it feels to be a female at a bar I've ever seen and I'll definitely refer to it later. I'd never given much thought to the notion that females would be conscious of seeming too interested for fear of creating unfortunate encounters later on. It gives rise to some questions though.
How often does a guy make things really awkward for you if it doesn't work out? More than half the time? And do you think that the jerks who make things difficult for you after a failed approach make you think less of all the guys that do come up and talk to you? I'd hate to think that some bad guys are ruining it for all the other reasonable guys.
In regards to you saying that you don't have much control over the guys that you get to know… do you try to send any signals that a conversation would be welcome?
Indeed. I've found 60% or so of women I see that I have an interest in fail a very simple test:
I look at them, make quick eye contact, I smile, and I see if they smile back. 60% of women will not smile back. Turn their head, won't acknowledge, snarl, suck their teeth, etc. But it's a very good filter.
(Caution note: I have never actually been in a relationship. Be warned about trying this)
Congratulations. You've figured out a way to tell whether or not they're interested in talking to you. Welcome to the planet. Lots of people have this happen to them all the goddamned time. You are not entitled to any given women's attention.
Also, have you recorded the way you smile? Does it come off as creepy accidentally? Nothing says "I'm viewing you as an object to conquer" like a smile that doesn't reach the eyes.
I'm a natural smiley person. I smile all the time. This has earned me more than my fair share of people who have approached me that I never intended to "hook" for lack of a better term. I've always been nice and conversed a moment before graciously excusing myself. I'd say about 40% of the time if the guy I'm talking to deems I'm "alone" he has tried to not let me get out of the conversation, escalated attempts to keep me there to the point where he's touched me in a way that set off alarm bells, like grabbing a forearm to keep me in place, or tried to hinder my ability to leave in some other way.
I have NEVER held this against a guy who approached me later. Every guy starts off at the same level and either convinces me he's nice, or convinces me he's someone I really don't want to be around. It doesn't carry over.
But that might just be me.
Well, as I said I've never been approached much in general, so I don't have a lot of "data" to draw averages from. I based the above partly on experiences I'ive heard about from friends and family as well. And in terms of what I do to try to indicate interest, I'll be referring to past events because I'm not looking anymore (married last year).
I'd say three out of the five or so guys I can remember approaching me in person made me uncomfortable. Two just kept talking when I made it politely clear I didn't want to continue the conversation, and this was made more awkward because I couldn't leave (I was at work). But they did eventually move on. Then there was the one I mentioned above, who kept following me around and trying to catch my eye after I'd said I wanted to be left alone, to the point that I left the event I was at because he was preventing me from enjoying it.
I also had a guy I met through a dating website throw a hissy fit at me and accuse me of not giving him a proper chance, because I told him I didn't feel we were clicking in a romantic way after meeting once in person. He'd gone on and on before we met about how we had so much in common that he'd want to be friends no matter what, and I was still open to that, but as soon as it was clear he wasn't getting more, he dropped all communication. I only met a few guys in person; I only turned down one other, and he took it fine.
So about 50%? But again, limited sample size here.
This is not counting things like random street harassment.
I wouldn't say I hold it against other guys. But I am always more careful and conscious of how I interact with men than with women. Partly it's because I know I'm not very socially adept, so I'm not totally aware of what signals I might be sending out. And partly there's just always this extra layer of context with a guy–the possibility of romantic or sexual attraction–which usually doesn't come into play with other women. I take my cues from the guy, and if he seems relaxed and unconcerned with "getting" anything from me, I relax very quickly too.
When I was on the market, I probably didn't send out many signals because of shyness and social awkwardness. I was pretty assertive in high school about chatting guys up and attempting to flirt, but got kind of overwhelmed in university and beyond. I'd definitely smile back if a guy I thought looked interesting smiled at me, or try to catch their eye and give them a quick smile first. On the dating site, I'd send "smiles" and occasionally messages to guys who interested me.
I'll also add that you have to be aware of the general culture of blame around women… Our parents and teachers and the media tell us to be careful how we dress, where we go at night, to watch our drinks in the bar in case someone sticks a roofie in one, to not drink too much because if we pass out anything could happen to us. Every time there's a news story about a woman who was stalked or harassed or raped, there is always discussion about how maybe she could have prevented it, what maybe she did wrong that allowed or even encouraged it to happen. We grow up with those voices in our ears. Even for those of us who are able to separate out conditioning from reality and realize that most men do not literally think that by approaching them or flirting with them we're giving them permission to do whatever they want, it can be really hard to shake that deeply programmed sense of caution.
Which is to say, it's not just based on our individual experiences. It's our society at large sending the message that guys can be manipulative and dangerous, and we'd better watch out. Personally I wish our society spent more time teaching boys that trying to trick or chemically maneuver women into bed isn't cool, and that "No" actually means "No", not "Keep trying until she sees the light" (how much do I hate that romantic narrative where the guy just has to keep showing the girl how awesome she is, because of course not giving up is so romantic and she eventually realizes he was right for her all along? So so much). Which is why I'm so happy sites like this one exist! We're making progress.
Yeah, there's always caution. There always has to be caution. I distinctly remember my Mother taking me aside as a young girl and teaching me how to not "end up dead in a ditch." It is part of our ingrained internal narrative. I really hate that it has to be that way.
Nearly all (heterosexual) men feel this way at one point or another. Even men with great romantic and sexual success with women think like this once in awhile, they will complain about it private. There is even some truth in what you say, although women do not have it easy in courtship. The problem is that you are operating on the just world fallacy and applying it to romance. The just world fallacy is equally erroneous when applied to dating as it is applied to anything else. There all sorts of really good people with miserable love lives. There are also people who really should not be in relationships because they are miserable, abusing wrecks of humanity but have no end of partners.
Justice and romance have nothing to do with each other. I was a lot happier after I realized this, it freed me to pursue women more actively than wait for one to magically appear in my life. So far, I have not been succesful but it won't happen unless I make it happen. Even then it might not happen.
P.S. There is a way to kill your libido but its very drastic and as of now irreversable.
That being said, the current dating system is still messed up. Paraphrasing Churchill, its not the best romantic/sexual system in the history of humany but the least bad one. People with less than stellar romance and sex lives, men more than women, are subject to a strange and particularly evil sort of bullying where they are made to feel pathetic and useless even if accomplished in other areas. Media in general makes this worse and creates very unrealistic expectations for dating and romance and the level of connection that potential couples should feel on the first encounter.
Men may be made to feel pathetic and useless if they're not having enough sex, but women get it just as much if their romantic lives aren't active. For example, every time I visited my cousins from the time I was 13, the very first question they and my aunt would ask me is "Do you have a boyfriend?" As if that was the most important aspect of my life. Movies and TV suggest that no woman is really fulfilled unless she's having a successful relationship, even if she has an amazing job she loves and great friends and a supportive family. There's a tremendous amount of pressure to be able to tell your friends how wonderful your relationship is, to be getting ready to be married if you're not yet, and to be out there finding a guy if you don't currently have one.
You just don't feel those pressures because you're not a woman, so they're not targeted at you, but believe me, they're there.
Thats why I used gender language neutral in the above post. Still, I believe that American society is a lot more unforgiving on men who are not in relationships than women. Men with bad love lives are often depicted as losers and the assumption is that there is no good reason for a heterosexual man not to have girlfriend beyond his own pathetic tendencies. Women without boyfriends are depicted more sympathetically and/or positively in general.
It was your "men more than women" I objected to, and I still do.
American society is a lot more unforgiving on men who are not in relationships than women.
Really? I don't see many people "worrying" and speculating about whether all the many male celebrities who aren't currently in relationships will ever finally find a wife, whereas all anyone seems to talk about with the female celebrities is who they're dating, whether they're secretly engaged, who they might secretly be in a relationship with if they're not openly dating, are they pregnant, will they get married soon enough to have kids… and if they fend off questions about their private relationships, it's seen as cold and bitchy.
I also see *tons* of male characters in movies and on TV who don't happen to have a serious relationship at the moment (or are maybe even serial daters who have trouble with commitment) but are still portrayed as strong, attractive, and successful. (Just off the top of my head, on TV, which I don't even watch that much of–Rick Castle on Castle, the one main character in Suits, Jack on 30 Rock, various male characters at different times on True Blood, various male characters at different times on Mad Men, various male characters on The Vampire Diaries, etc.) Whereas most female characters constantly have a romantic plot going on, and if they're choosing not to date at a particular time, the other characters are asking about it as if there's something wrong with them, and/or they're portrayed as broken in some way, even if they're very successful in other areas (see Beckett on Castle, Liz on 30 Rock, etc.).
I totally agree that there's a lot of pressure on men to be able to have sexual encounters in order to be considered successful. But in terms of romance and healthy long-term relationships, I see far more pressure on women. Can you name a few male public figures or characters who are portrayed as pathetic losers despite being successful at their jobs and having good friend relationships and periodic sex, just because they don't have a steady relationship?
To be fair, people who talk about celebrities are generally awful.
In general, when gossip sites and magazines obsess over a male celebrity's love life or relationships, it tends to run one of three ways:1) He's a bachelor of long-standing, so will $FEMALECELEBRITY be the one to finally make him settle down?2) He's cheated on/ been cuckolded by/broken up with $FEMALECELEBRITY and isn't that horrible?3) Is he gay?You don't see the “Oh noes, will he EVER get married??!” concern trolling that someone like, say Jennifer Anniston does or getting forever associated with one particular ex and being brought up whenever said ex dates somebody else.(Robert Patterson may be the first serious exception to this, however).
Doctor: I'd submit celebrities, male or female, exist in a different world (a world called "Hollywood") that has nothing to do with 99% of the people posting here, or people in general.
I'm a guy who has been called out and snarled at by groups before when talking to women. I had some moderate success once (that ended in a friendship, of course, but it was a good friendship too). It's just really random.
This is something that we are going to disagree on then.
Then I'll just say, I hope you don't assume that women aren't willing to listen and understand where men are coming from. I asked you directly to help me understand your POV via actual examples (because just stating that you believe something doesn't explain to me why you do), and you've decided not to bother.
The terms "Old Maid" and "Spinster" are not exactly sympathetic, but they are what is used for women who don't have good love lives. As Mel said, as soon as you hit puberty, in a lot of places your primary function as a female is to get a good husband and get married. Lord knows my aunts have been harassing me, my sister and my female cousins long enough. Not being able to catch and hold on to a man is a huuuuuuuge social stigma, past a certain age. Maybe we're clucked and tutted after instead of horribly teased, but we're still considered pathetic losers.
ZapBorn, this attitude is EXACTLY why you can't and won't have successful and fulfilling relationships.
I'm constantly saying "DON'T treat these articles like note-for-note rulebooks", but clearly there are still those that still don't get it.
These other comments have thoroughly blasted you so I don't have too much to add other than you need to seriously GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF and get the Jaws Of Life to remove your head that's shoved firmly up your ass. Hell that's probably why you got so offended by the "Just talk to her like a normal human being" line. Because you're acting like a real sucky one with this WAY overly whiny, borderline misogynistic, pity party bullshit.
Like that R.E.M. song goes: Everybody hurrrrrrts….some timessss….
Deal with it and calm down.
Last Saturday, I saw a very attractive women do the happy dance into a bathroom because she really neeeded to relieve herself. The moral is that women, even really beautiful ones, aren't aliens from another planet. They are humans with the ordinary frustrations, urges, annoyances, and need to go to the bathroom. Its easier to talk to women if you remember that they need to pee and burp to.
And fart, don't forget the farting.
"Every time I read these articles it just enforces my feeling of women just not being worth the trouble. How is a normal guy supposed to entertain a whole group of women? Furthermore, why should we even have to spend so much freaking time learning how to do these things while women just have to be themselves and have fun?"
For me, being myself and having fun means sitting alone in a room with some music in my ears reading a book, or maybe watching a movie/tv-show.
Here's something shocking, there's a good portion of women who don't enjoy going out, wear make-up or any of the things that are (according to society) neccessary to find a partner. The times that I did go out I was also treated like shit, because the weirdest people start approaching you and expect you to like it. I get unwanted body-contact and when I get pissed about that I'm a prude. They give me strange looks and then laugh it off, while my night is ruined. I'm still told to smile the entire evening/night.
Those are the only people of the opposite sex that have ever paid attention to me in a setting like that. I'm not complimented on my look, not ever, and no guy wants to get to know me. You would care if you had creepy people approach me because they tend to get into your comfort zone when you don't want them to.
I'm getting the feeling you just want to get laid and you'd do anything to 'get it'. All you really need to do is lower your standards and you're done.
Sometimes I wish there was a place for people to meet who'd really be much happier chilling at home with a movie/whatever than going out to bars/clubs besides the Internet.
This is varsity level stuff for sure. I'm a pretty girl who likes to flirt, but I would still be nervous approaching a group, especially mixed gender.