Doc,
I need some advice. You’ve said before that, when asking someone out, no one gets to call dibs, just because another person dated them first doesn’t mean you can’t now, etc. The general gist of what I got from this is: the only people that matter are you and her, nobody else gets a say in whether you date her.
But what what about a sibling?
I’ve recently been spending some time with the sister of one of my good friends (I’ve known him for about 5 years, and just met her a couple months ago). And I think she’s pretty awesome. And she’s attractive. So, of course, I’d like to ask her out.
Obviously, if we were to start dating, we’d have to tell my friend. But, should I consult him first? How would I even begin that kind of conversation?
Any suggestions you can give me on this would be awesome. Thanks.
- Bro Fist
Dating is not a democracy. Unless you’re already in a relationship (in which case, different rules apply entirely) other people don’t get a say in your dating life. Period. They are allowed an opinion - and most of the time would do well to keep it to themselves – but not a vote or a veto. End of.
Now, this doesn’t mean that dating is consequence free as a result. When you’re dating a friend’s ex – or in your case, a family member – then things get complicated. Are you obligated to consult him first? No, not really. This is the 21st century – his sister isn’t his property and she’s free to date whomever she damn well pleases, whether he likes it or not. You hardly need his permission.
Hell, I don’t even like the idea of asking a woman’s father for his blessing to propose to his daughter.
Now that being said, your buddy may well not be cool with your dating his sister for any number of reasons. Presumably he knows you better than anyone else; if he knows you’re a horndog, he’s not going to appreciate the idea that you’re trying to work your way into her panties – nevermind that she’s capable of making her own decisions. He may worry that you’re going to hurt her or that she may hurt you. Or he may think it’s cool, he may think that she’s a grown-ass woman who can handle her own affairs, or he may not give a damn one way or the other.
Thing is though: his opinion on the matter is your secondary concern. You should ask her out before you worry about what he thinks. No point in getting all worked up if li’l sis turns you down flat.
Do you NEED to consult him? No, not really. Should you give him a head’s up? Yeah, it’s good manners and you don’t want to seem as though you’re sneaking around behind his back; that’s a great way to destroy a friendship and possibly catch an ass-beating in the process.
I’m not saying that it won’t be a tricky situation; some brothers are extremely protective of their siblings, especially if they’re younger. Pull him aside and tell him him that hey, you and his sister are really starting to hit it off and it seems like the two of you might have something good going and you wanted to let him know because you’re his friend and you respect and care about him. Be straight with him, be respectful… and for the love of GOD don’t make any sort of even vaguely sexual jokes about her. Again: great way to catch an ass-beating.
Good luck.
Hey Doc,
Long time reader, first time writer. My question is simple, yet I think I would benefit from some of your insight.
I’m a guy who started taking singing lessons a few months ago, just to expand my musical repertoire. I was surprised to see that all the other students are girls roughly my age (early-to-mid twenties), and with similar interests. Just to quickly clarify, the lessons themselves are private, one hour sessions, with the same teacher. This means that by the time one of us is done and leaving, the other is just arriving. I guess you can see where I’m going with this.
Long story short, I would like to ask one particular girl out who is scheduled right after me. Just a quick coffee date to get a chance to know her better, since she’s incredibly cute and I know for a fact that, aside from singing, she also plays bass which is just awesome on so many levels. The problem is that there’s really no approriate time, or way, for me to do this.
The only time I have to talk to her is when I’m leaving and she’s arriving, which not only is usually less than a minute, but is also incredibly inconvenient, considering we’re all on a tight schedule and asking her right before a lesson would put her in a position where she has to answer real fast, and in front of our teacher. It would feel less like an actual “move”, and more like a cheap trick to pressure her into saying yes as quickly as possible.
I could ask her number from said teacher (who has our contact information), and ask her out that way, but there’s no way to do that and come off as anything, but a giant creep whose only in it looking for some tail. It feels rude and spineless, and frankly I’d rather do it in person.
The best option I could come up with was to finish my lesson, go into the nearby café that’s literally 10ft away, order a cup of tea (earl grey, hot), wait an hour, and ask her after she finished. While I can see this as something “cute” and safe, since she’s no longer pressed for time, or in an ”official” enviroment, I also realize the stalker aspect in such a move. I guess I could say that I “just happened” to have had some business around there, but I’ve always found these “fabricated meet-cutes” to be dishonest and cowardly.
So my question is, do you think it’s acceptable to “camp out”, so that you may talk to someone at a more appropriate time, and if no, I would greatly appreciate some advice.
Cautious Approach
Sweet Zombie Jeebus don’t camp out and ambush her. That’s a great way to come across like a creeper even when your intentions are entirely aboveboard and honorable.
While we’re at it: trying to get her info from your teacher? Lean in a little closer, I want to make sure you get this:
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
And also: NO!!
Fuck me running, it’s a good thing your instincts are telling you that’s a bad idea because otherwise I’d feel obligated to beat some sense into you in person. Yeah, trying to weasel her info out of her teacher is pretty spineless. It’s also even bigger stalker behavior, potentially illegal and a huge violation of her privacy, not to mention you’re roping a bystander into betraying her trust in him. And what the hell are you going to say to her when you call her out of the goddamn motherfucking clear blue sky? “Hey, remember me, you have voice lessons right after me. How’d I get your number? Hey don’t worry about it, it’s no big deal so are you doing anything tomorrow? Hello?”
If you’re really lucky, the cops will knock before kicking down your door.
The best thing you can do is ask her yourself, in person, when you see her. It doesn’t have to be high-pressure at all. Leave a little early, so you can catch her before she comes into the room – that way it won’t feel like an ambush, more of an idea in passing. Relax, give her a friendly smile and say “Hey, you know what? We see each other almost every day and I barely know anything about you, but you seem like you’re really cool. If you’re interested, I’d love to buy you a cup of tea after class and talk music.” Short, simple, to the point. If she’s down, tell her you’ll meet her at the cafe. If not, then you shrug, smile and say “Ok, cool. Have a good lesson!” and roll on like all she said was “yeah, I think it’s going to rain this weekend.” Next time you see her, it’s business as usual. You can do your “Mornin’ Sam / Mornin’ Ralph” routine as normal.
If you don’t treat it like it’s a big deal, she won’t treat it like it’s a big deal. You’re asking her to meet up for tea and friendly talk, not to bear your children.
At least two men that I know sought their future father-in-law's permission before asking their current wives to marry them. In one case, where I attended the wedding, the story was relayed publicly. Most people found it touching, I rolled my eyes. Why do people still go through this silly ritual? Will they not ask if not given permission? If the answer is no, will they just end the relationshi and disappear.
? ? ? uh, what does this have to do with anything?
urgh, nevermind – I forgot about Bro Fist up there, sorry.
See, I think it's polite to ask the father (provided I was asked first). It's mostly a formality (because the response is formulaic. If dad says no, they you politely explain to him that the question was rhetorical and he's supposed to be happy for you and you're getting married anyway) and an indirect way of asking for his blessing. More modern families probably don't do this, but I'm rather old fashioned and I know I'd be a little embarrassed if my future fiance just sort of *told* my parents instead of asking my father first. So while I can understand not asking, I don't understand how someone can be offended at asking a father's permission, but have no problem with a father "giving the bride away" at a wedding.
I have a problem with the concept of being "given" away AND asking permission. But then I wouldn't expect my fiance to tell my parents anything, I would do it myself. Probably over the phone. Within 12 hours of getting engaged (give or take some hours) But that's me and I would expect a partner of mine to know this about me. I'm rather the opposite of you in that I get why someone would like the idea standing on tradition (heck, ten years ago I would have found it cute. Now it just seems controlling) but I can't understand how someone can't understand why it would offend someone (like me) It might be a formality but it's a formality that has it roots in a time when a wife was considered a secondary citizen at best.
Its a minhag schtuck, a stupid custom and like spitsphyre said bellow, a relic of a time where "a husband and wife were one person and that person is the husband." Since the custom is a reflection of a disgusting and evil idea, that women and girls are property of some man, than it should be trashed. There lots of very old customs and traditions in romance and everyday life that I like and support like opening doors for the person your dating or pulling out a chair for them. They are charming, unoffensive, and can be easily egalitarianized. They do not reflect anything really bad. The custom of asking a woman's father for permissio to marry her is not one of them. Its just bad. Really bad.
I couldn't disagree more, College Lady! Polite formality? Rhetorical questions? I'm sorry if I offend you, but this type of thinking is scary. You are giving power over your being to people who are minimally aware of your inner person.
You give permission to someone, who is still getting to know you, to request ownership of you from your parent. While parents should know you better, there's no guarantee that they do.
Hopefully your parents nurtured and guided you, having your best interests at heart. Too many abandon, neglect, abuse, emotionally stunt, or otherwise prove that they're not fit to train another human how to be a good person. Are these the people you want to have control over whom you are bound to emotionally?
Now, I gather that you have love and respect for your family; this points to a good up-bringing. Why would you ask a question of your father, and then tell him to shove it if you don't like his answer? This is not respect. The answer to a yes/no question is not a formulaic "Yes." He can say no. If you truly plan on going against his wishes, then do not ask him.
To Cautious (and the Doc, and any commenters), would it be possible to slip her a written note between your classes? I'm unsure if this would be considered sweet or juvenille and spineless, but it's the first thing I thought of.
Alternately, if you're really rushed for time and don't want to seem like you're forcing her to say yes, say what the Doc recommended and then add "Don't answer right now, you have class" and leave.
I also thought of slipping a well worded note if there was literally no time, but I like the Doc’s approach too. Notes are fun and remind us of hot crushes. There are downsides though because the ball is then entirely in her court, and she may feel pressured into initiating a conflict if she doesn’t want to go, and may seriously avoid you just in case.
I was JUST telling a friend how a guy on the bus, when I was 19, wrote the sweetest note ever to me. He was a couple years older (still in his early 20s) and he handed it to be me before getting off. He was so nervous his hands were shaking. Unfortunately I had a bf at the time but I still remember how earnest he was and how sweet the note was. It wasn't long and flowery, did go on about how I was the love of his life, it just said that I had the most enchanting eyes he'd ever seen and he liked my style and would I like to get coffee? (XXX)XXX-XXXX
I threw it away after much deliberation but obviously I still think about it.
The thing is that I would have reacted much differently had he tried to approach me on the bus and strike up that conversation face to face, the note made it much less threatening (and put the ball in my court so if I was uncomfortable I didn't have to face him)
Now obviously take this story with a grain of salt. I'm just one lady and a sucker for written words and I advertise my interests pretty loudly with my clothes BUT notes aren't necessarily a bad way to go. It's a crap shoot like anything else I'd say and maybe other women will disagree with everything I've just said.
(and I still wish I had been single
)
To Bro Fist up there, I just want to agree with the Doctor to talk to the girl first. My brother can be a bit protective at times, and while I get that and respect it, if I were in a position where someone asked him before asking me I'd be a bit annoyed. Even if it's not meant that way it would feel like the asker thought my brother was "in charge" of my life in a way he isn't. I don't want to make you nervous, but depending on how things went I might even start feeling like my bro was "trying to set me up with someone nice" (he hasn't liked some of my previous bf's) instead of taking it at face value that the asker was just sincerely interested in me. I don't know about your girl, but the other plus there is if she knows her bro is likely to get protective it can give her a chance to give you any advice she may have, or she may even feel more comfortable if she can have her own chance to let her brother know. Not all people or siblings are the same but those are my thoughts, plenty of girls aren't so big on the idea of asking permission from anyone but themselves before asking for a date.
Hey Cautious Approach, here's another suggestion – write down your phone number (or email address orwhat-have-you) beforehand. Then, next time you see this girl, hand it to her and say that you'd love to grab coffee with her on [day] and if she's interested to give you a call? It puts the ball in her court but in a way where she has time to consider it. Just a thought.
That's actually a really bad idea. Even if that's not the intent, it can come off as really passive-aggressive as it puts all the pressure on her.
Sheesh, what’s your definition of “passive-agressive?” And how does a written note put more pressure on someone than a face-to-face confrontation?
Face to face, her option to turn you down requires making the whole conversation awkward. With a note, she just has to… do nothing.
That would work fine if she were never going to see the guy again, but they'll pass each other every day after that for music lessons – terribly awkward situation.
"Hey we see each other all the time, want to grab tea after your lesson?" is about as low pressure as you can get as far as I can see. There isn't much risk for the girl if she really doesn't want to get to know you – she can just say "No, but thank you" and move on, and you can easily keep it from being awkward afterward by actually treating it like no big deal.
It's hard to do that if she decides not to call you after you pass her a note.
Honestly? I'd respond better to the quick note idea than being way laid on my way to class or work. When I need to be somewhere, I have no patience for conversation.
Yes, I know that not everyone is me. But if you insist on speaking to a person who is in the middle of something, (going to a class,) keep it to one sentence; two, tops. Give the girl your number with your name and tell her you'd like to see her after class. She can say yes, no or smile and ignore you as she sees fit.
Sure there's some pressure, but it also gives her the choice. There's a lot less pressure and a lot more choice than putting her on the spot when she's in a hurry. Not to mention the instructor may not allow the conversation to begin with. Many have policies, about such situations, in place to minimize the danger to their students.
I'm glad Cautious Approach has such good instincts because those are indeed two terrible ways to go about asking a girl out for coffee. When I was waitressing one of the patrons tried to get my number via another one of the waitresses. I found this out because on that particular day he was calling the restaurant every hour or so in the hopes I'd answer the phone.
I suppose I have a story sort of related to his second idea as well: When I was in college and still liked studying outside one day a dude walked up to me and asked my name. I responded and he went on his way. About ten minutes later he walked by again and asked my major. I responded and off he goes. I got wary (see above patron incident) and moved maybe ten feet away and hidden by a tree. Sure enough, dude comes round AGAIN in ten more minutes, looks confused because he can't see me, and heads back the way he came. That set of encounters just came off as trying to manufacture casualness and was deeply unsettling. Don't do it.
Yeah, guys, it's probably best to avoid any behavior that is akin in any way to "hunting something down." That tends to make things scary.
I've personally found coffee dates to be a bad way to go – the better dates are where you're doing something, having fun. If you enjoy to talking to total strangers over coffee, that might be for you, but it's not great for me – and in my experience with female friends if they're having a coffee date the odds are far, far lower that it will go somewhere than if they're doing something fun with someone they're attracted to.
You have a common interest – singing/music/concerts. Do you ever go to concerts/singing/etc? Invite her to go. Better yet, start talking to the instructor about the next one you're going to at the end of class, then as you're leaving ask her if she's gone to one – they're really awesome she should come, what's her phone number or email?
The key is to be interesting in *going* to see the concert – like, you want to go see the concert, and it would be cool if she went to.
Most of the people I knew in college started dating because they were doing something together, or invited the other person to do something together – something other than just sitting in talking. Of course other people have made that work, but one doesn't have to try so hard to make something casual when you have something you're genuinely interested in other than *just* the other person.
The other advantage is that it's more socially appropriate to invite someone to a singing thing in a singing lesson context, than it is to invite them to…well, something else.
I think you missed the part where he has all of 60 seconds to talk to her – kinda hard to set up a full fledged date like that when you don't even know if she's at all interested in hanging out.
Hey, thanks Doc for answering my question, and thank you to all the people who commented. It's really interesting to see the different views, opinions and attitudes towards this peculiar situation
The funny thing is, I generally don't make a big deal out of talking to/asking out girls, usually I just stay calm, try to be polite and add a little humour when it feels appropriate. But the situation really put me off balance, since any way I looked at it, I came out looking rude, inconsiderate or just plain creepy. Even the Doc's advice (which is by far the most acceptable) is kinda tricky to pull off. It's like the social equivalent of playing Battleship. Leave 5 minutes early, MISS she's already here. Leave 10 minutes early, MISS she's not here yet, and I'm stuck standing around collecting CreepPoints. But it is still way better than the one hour camp session.
And as far as the note idea goes. Yeah, I can see how it could be cute, but there's a lot of ways someone could react to it, and it does feel like I'm trying to skip the face to face part, giving the impression that I lack the confidence to actually talk to her.