Dear Dr. Nerd Love, (m.d?, ph.D?)
(Doctor’s Note: Dr. NerdLove is not a real doctor.)
Thanks for writing such a female-friendly advice column for men. It’s very refreshing. However, I’m a woman and I need some help too! I’m 26 and single. I’ve never really had a relationship that lasts longer than 5-6 months, if it even reaches that point. I don’t really have any “issues”. I’m pretty secure with who I am, successful in life, sociable, and communicate pretty easily. I am nerdy, as in I work as a computer programmer and have a degree in math. I tend to go for nerdy guys, but not exclusively. To be honest, I don’t have a type, just require them to be a decent human being and not fail at life. However, it seems most of my interactions with the opposite sex have either led to me being “friend-zoned” or only desired for sex. Physically, I’m attractive, but on the curvy side, and I’ve never really had issues “getting laid”, but that’s not what I want. I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong that I can’t seem to find a guy who actually wants to have a meaningful relationship with me. Sometimes, I feel like guys think that just because I’m kinky in bed, that I’m not the kind of girl they can bring home to their parents, which is completely untrue. I have impeccable manners, and a wide selection of dinner appropriate conversation topics under my belt. I am also not willing to subscribe to playing by “The Rules” and engaging in shitty gender role games to trick a man into committing to me.
Loner Girl
Here’s the problem with trying to do a long-distance diagnosis: there’s a lot of info not present. We don’t know why you and your various boyfriends have broken up, for example or the circumstances that lead up to each break-up. It could be you’re attracted to guys whose lifestyle doesn’t mesh well with yours, it could be a case of incompatible sex drives… who knows. Sometimes, the only common denominator is, well, you.
You’re a computer programmer, so you’ve got an analytical, detail oriented mind – use that to your advantage. I’m a big fan of following the data when it comes to solving your dating issues. I’d start by recommending that you go through your past relationships, writing down everything that lead up to the break-up and look for commonalities. Sometimes it can be hard to get the distance you need to have some proper perspective and pin down recurring issues; writing everything down can help.
You mention that you’re kinky and that this seems to be a reason why guys see you as “the one you don’t take home to mother.” First let me establish: there’s nothing wrong with being into kink, and especially nothing that precludes kinksters from having loving stable relationships. That being said, some guys still have the Madonna/Whore complex going on – there’s the women they marry and the women they fuck and rarely do the two intersect. They hear “kink” and they assume that you’re a bondage queen and you’re only down for wild crazy sex, not possibly a house, 2.5 kids, 1.4 cars and a rumpus room that doesn’t have a St. Andrews Cross in it.
Now, this makes it their problem, not yours, and if a guy can’t see past your being kinky to your other qualities, then they’re clearly self-selecting out of your dating pool and you’re well rid of them.
How you roll out who you are and what you’re interested, however, can sometimes cause a lot of false positives on people’s radar; for all I know, you mention that you’re kinky on the first date before the salad course. This can cause some folks to mentally reassess how they see you, rightfully or not. I nearly missed out on dating a wonderful woman because of the emphasis she put on how important religion was to her early on; I’d mistakenly thought that this was a sign that we weren’t going to work out.
But like I said: this is all my spitballing and may well have nothing to do with your situation.
I agree with you: playing gender role games and following The Rules (feh) is a bullshit way of getting someone to commit. I do, however, believe in pre-screening dates, which is one reason why I love online dating; you can establish what you’re looking for and what people dating you can expect and people who misunderstand or ignore your standards are folks you can freely ignore. You’re looking for someone who wants a relationship with you, not just a fuck-buddy… so it may help to take sex off the table while you’re getting to know new guys. Not because sex is dirty and wrong1 or that everybody should wait until $ARTIFICIAL_TIME_UNIT but because that seems to be the recurring issue. You want someone who’s into you; let them prove that they want more than access to your panties.
Good luck.
Dear Doc,
I experienced an interesting reversal today–when a girl rejected my advances I was the one put in the position of not knowing how to be direct without being awkward, and telling a white lie. I’ve learned a lot recently about indirect refusals from women “I’d love to, but I have this spy mission in the Czech Republic,” etc. This girl did not do that. She was a down-to-earth hippie type, and wanted to be clear that though she would go to tea with me, she had a boyfriend.
We had had a pretty good conversation, but I barely have time for my CURRENT friends; knowing about the boyfriend made me lose interest in tea. I didn’t know how to extricate myself from my own invitation–regardless of whether she actually wanted me to follow up or not I didn’t want to reveal I am so shallow that I would only go out with her if there was a romantic possibility there.
So I lied. I asked for her number, said I might call her if and when I wasn’t busy. I fully intended to throw away the number without looking at it, and did just that when I was out of sight. Unfortunately I didn’t have a pen or paper so she had to dig through her purse for those things. I feel like kind of an asshole.
Do you have any advice for informing a woman that you changed your mind about going out with her when you learned it has no romantic possibilities, without coming across as a total douchelord?
Sure, I’ll Call You.
Um… you feel like an asshole because you’re being an asshole. You had every opportunity to say “Hey listen, you seem like you’re cool and under different circumstances I’m sure we’d be great friends. But I want to at least give you the respect you deserve and be honest: I’m looking for a romantic partner, not a friend. You’ve got a guy and I feel like a total jerk wasting your time like this, so I hope things go well for you all. ‘Bye!”
But you didn’t.
Guys like to say that they’d rather women be direct and tell them “no, I’m not interested” rather than soft-pedal it or give a fake number… and so would a lot of women. Show ‘em enough respect to say “Thanks but no thanks,”
But that’s just my opinion as a guy… so I’m going to turn this over to the commentors and the Facebook page. Ladies: how would you prefer a guy to turn you down if they realized that it wasn’t going to work out?
- only if you’re doing it properly [↩]
regarding the first e-mail, i've found most of the programmers and system developers that i've met in my life (both male and female) have been very cold and analytical, and not so good at being warn, caring and emotionally intimate.
for example, i knew one programmer woman who complained that guys only preferred dumb girls while ignoring the successful ones, and while this is true to some degree, it became obvious to me that her real problem was that she never showed any honest emotions whatsoever, and masked her feelings with a cold, logical exterior.
for example, she thought it was "stupid" to level with her partner on an emotional level, and thought it was humiliating having to ask him if he was as into her as she was into him.
i don't know if this is relevant at all, but i got the same "emotionally devoid robot vibes" from the first e-mail.
hope that helped somewhat. =)
Before computers, these types of people were called stoics. Some people either are cold and analytical and do not really like showing much emotion in public. Others just like to pretend they are this type. They seemed to believe its dignified behavior. It kind of makes being in a relationship hard, especially if you are a woman because traditional gender roles dictate that women are supposed to be compassionate and show affection. Men could get away with not showing emotional much more but their partners might want a bit more intimacy.
See my reply below, before I realized I could sign on with twitter (Loner Girl), accidentally replied to Jennifer
Backing out of a scheduled date is super-awkward, but it is less awkward than going on a date you don't want to be on and wasting your own and someone else's time.
"So sorry, I need to cancel our date. I think you're neat, and you definitely didn't do anything wrong, but I know that I'm not completely invested in this and should probably bail."
Hey! Thanks for the vote of confidence. I think there’s a difference between being ruled by your emotions and knowing how to express them constructively. I think I’ve mastered the latter pretty well. I am pretty sure if I was an emotionally devoid robot, I wouldn’t have a group of fiercely loyal friends that love me. I’m never humiliated by telling someone how I feel, I just don’t believe in emotional manipulation. I also don’t throw tantrums when someone doesn’t feel the same way about me, it’s not classy. Everyone is entitled to be with someone they are into. I think you confused proper spelling and correct sentence construction with being robotic.
Also, when I’m friend-zoned, it’s never in the “I’m just saying we will be friends to be polite way” but more in the “I’m still gonna try and hang out and drink and play video games and poker with you – I just don’t want to put my penis in you, unless I get drunk, but then we can never talk about it”
OOPS Sorry, that reply was meant to the gentleman above you! You're awesome, Captain Awkward! Stupid mobile browser …
I’m usually a lot more curt in these cases. Something like “no thanks, good luck to you.”
Imagine my delight upon sitting down and loading your website (side note: what hosting service do you use? your load times are excruciatingly slow) and seeing that you answered my letter! (I’m Loner Girl). Thank you so much! A couple of points, that you don’t have to answer, but I’m sure commenters will in some form or another:
1. I don’t mention that I’m kinky on the first date. That would be weird. And even though it’s something I enjoy, I don’t usually introduce men to that side of myself until after we’ve starting having sex. But when I am in a relationship, and I care about someone, I do express my feelings sexually as well as verbally, etc. I think it’s less the issue of kink, but more of my high sex drive and openness about sex. Example: if I’m hanging out at home with a partner and we’re watching shitty tv and vegging out, I have no issue turning to him and saying “This is boring, wanna go have sex?” I think it confuses men to be with a woman they don’t have to badger for sex.
2. The friend-zone issue is more caused by my openness about everything else (not in a rude way). I think people are raised by their friends, and since most of my friends were men (due to my area of study) in college and after, I tend to have a very straightforward communication style, which means my “feminine wiles” are almost nonexistent. As in the above example, I tend to ask for what I want, and if I don’t get it, I tend to just shrug and say “well, at least I tried”. True, I don’t stay in relationships where my needs are consistently not being met, but I also don’t expect them to be met if I don’t explicitly tell my partner what they are. I’ve had one of my guy friends *actually* say to me: “You could try being a bit more emotional and girly, like get mad when you don’t hear from him for a day.” /facepalm. I can’t fake an emotional response that I don’t experience. If I don’t hear from someone for a day, I just assume they are busy and continue to do whatever I am doing. If I don’t hear from someone for a week, I assume we are no longer in a relationship. I don’t need to call and yell at them, I can be sad to my roommate or her cat or wallow in a bottle of wine and a trashy urban fantasy novel. I’ve had a guy I was seeing tell me he didn’t want to be in a relationship with me because I “didn’t need him” – the messed up part was, that I wanted him (and I told him so), which to me is exponentially better. Wouldn’t you want to be with a partner who *chooses* to be with you?
I’m boggled.
Oh, and the blog's hosted by DreamHost.
So wait. You're a smart, attractive, curvy, nerdy female programmer with a high sex drive (And you're comfortable with it) who has a mature emotional outlook and likes to be straightforward and explicitly state your emotional needs?
Can I have your number?
Seriously, you seem to have great girlfriend potential, and guys who are comfortable with themselves and secure in their lives would totally dig a girl like you.
Also, as far as presenting you to my parents, my mum gave me a box of condoms when I was twelve. I would have no problem with bringing someone like you home (no matter how kinky you are
.
If anything, I would say that giving a guy one week is probably a little short. Give them a shout before making any assumptions. A simple "Hey Are you still into me or have you found the love of your life?" text would probably work pretty well.
To summarise, I wish I'd come across more girls like you! Don't despair, there are definitely guys who will totally be into you, and not just to get into your pants (Although I'm sure that would be fun too).
(I'm Loner Girl) Thanks that's sweet, I think it might be the area I live in too… I've had multiple friends who've lived in other areas become frustrated at the level of social homogeneity present in this big small town. I wrote about some of my dating dilemmas on my blog if you're interested: http://blogsfeme.com/2012/06/05/but-i-wont-do-tha…
(It's true…) There might be some truth in that. Different cities have different vibes and you'll definitely find different kinds of people in different places.
I'm very lucky. I'm in a city where being nerdy, interesting, smart, fit and well off is basically the norm. Very weird when you first get there, but you quickly get used to it.
Maybe your town just ain't big enough for you?
Lonergirl might be my computer geek twin, because in every other detail I could have written this same response.
I'm not girly, I actively avoid trying to be clingy and overly emotional, and even if I should happen to feel needy I do my best to keep that to myself because when I was younger I chased off all the guys I wanted by being the needy clingy overly emotional girl they thought might stalk them if they weren't careful. These days I communicate and let my partner know if I feel like something is wrong or needs to be discussed, I am straightforward when I want (or don't want) something. I'm very open about my sexuality (and agree, Kink is not something you reveal on the first date, it creates an entirely different image).
I can count the number of actual dates I've had on one both hands, without taking my shoes off. I can count the number of second dates on one hand. I cannot count the number of "hey lets hang out" invitations that were made with intentions of me ending up in their bed. I can count the number of official "this is my girlfriend" relationships on two hands with fingers left over.
I don't get asked out, I get propositioned. They want a fuck buddy, a friend with benefits, a plaything. They're excited by how open I am about sexuality, and they're either eager to explore shared kink or try being with a girl who is open to exploring kinks they've been curious about. On an interesting side note, this happens most especially once I've admitted to being the submissive type, even with men who later admit that they hoped that I would be submissive enough to dominate them (which is a huge wtf to me).
I've come to the conclusion that guys just don't know how to handle a girl who is straightforward and open about such things. I realized this after approaching a guy that I really just wanted to have a few nights of sweaty fun with. Somehow he translated "I want you" into potentially clingy and needy and decided it wasn't worth the drama. A couple of years later I ran into him again at a party and we ended up wrapped around each other on a couch. He stopped kissing me long enough to admit to why he had rejected me before, and to admit to regretting having done so. I asked why he felt the need to reinterpret my blunt request for sex and he said "girls aren't straightforward, you always have to read between the lines to figure out what they really want"
No, you don't have to read between the lines. You just have to learn to tell the difference between a girl who says "Whatever" as a challenge to see if you can read her mind and magically know that she wants you to spend a romantic night with her instead of going out with the guys… and one who says "whatever" because she's genuinely okay with you having a guys' night out as long as you schedule a special night with her in the near future.
as to Lonergirl, the only advice I can offer as a fellow straightforward and kinky type…
I try to let them know up front that I'm looking for something with romantic and relationship potential, that I'm blunt and straightforward, and that its perfectly okay to let me know if at any point they decide they just don't want to continue. I'd rather be told "I'm just not into you" than spend weeks wondering wtf happened and if I screwed it up somehow. Depending on your level of kink, I might suggest a couple of sites where you could try meeting men who are likewise minded and more importantly understand that you can take a kinky girl home to mom, just leave the handcuffs in the car. Though of course that avenue comes with pitfalls as well.
OMG! Thank you! Thank you for being another person like me!
Ugh I tried a kink site once, the kink contingent of my town consists of like ten 60 year old men with open marriages *shudder* Why is it so weird for a girl to be ok with not seeing her SO every day? Shit, sometimes I want to engage in some single-girl behavior like eating ice cream out of the pint (btw, I just found wine ice cream the other day, was very excited, and then subsequently disappointed because it was NOT delicious AT ALL) in bed with a good book, or watching an SVU marathon.
Let's be friends! (how's that for an emotional response, Boat) No, seriously, I need more friends like you, I still have trouble deciphering my roommates communication style.
Twitter stalking has commenced, will visit your blog and such tonight after i get home.from work
Charyou, typing crappily via nook
I totally started a new blog for this, but Charyou was taken
haha enjoy! Psychic twin!
Were you channeling Maria Bamford when you said Red Wine ice cream “is NOT delicious AT ALL!”?
Just wondering.
not on purpose, but I will take that as a compliment. I was just shockingly disappointed to find that even though I love ice cream and wine, together they are not good.
Anyone who wants a submissive to dominate them clearly has a backwards view of how D/s is supposed to work. O.o
This is so much truth right here. Seriously.
I have no ide awhy it happens, but i keep attracting guys who want to convince me.that if i were twuly submissive i would want to please them by taking control. They cant grasp the fact.that as a submissive type girl im actively turned OFF by men who want me in the dominant role
Fail
Charyou, crappy nook typist
I'd say that, for most girls, you do actually have to read between the lines (keyword: most). So when we meet a girl who is actually straightforward with what she says, things can get confusing.
For most girls you might have to translate, and being one of the rare straightforward ones makes my life unnecessarily complicated sometimes
Charyou, hating girls who play games
It's been interesting reading your stories, Charyou and @OnlyYevster. You remind me of women I've dated myself.
I wish I had an answer for why things didn't work out, because in theory things were great and I really liked those women a lot.
The only thought I have is that often it didn't really feel like a relationship or a partnership, like we were facing the world together. It felt more like we drifted into and out of each other's lives as necessary so we were never really 'together' in any meaningful sense of the word.
I don't know if that's helpful or not.
I've had relationships like that, luckily most of them came at times where I wasn't looking for anything more serious. The only white picket fence I want comes with a dungeon in the basement
so I've walked away from several relationships because they were looking for more than I was willing to offer them. I know for my own part, the decision to not have children is part of the problem, because there seems to be a pretty narrow group of people who fall between the "settle down and have fat babies" and "party hardy" crowds. I haven't known a lot of people who share my "settle down with someone I love and enjoy being together" version of happily ever after.
I do have something pretty fantastic going on at the moment, but its still in that "am I in a relationship?" stage so who knows. If it doesn't work out, chances are I'll move out of state when my lease ends next summer.
First off, in response to the actual letter, you are so totally my type. Even including the kinky bit. =P I'd be thrilled to meet a woman like you. I love your writing style. If it wasn't for the fact that given my luck on the internet you are probably ridiculously far away, I'd ask you out, with no intention of friend-zoning you. =D But since you probably are so very far away, can we at least be friends and keep in touch?
When combining this response with your original letter though, I think I see why you've been falling into friend-zone (and let's be honest, the just-sex relationships are sorta like friends with benefits with or without the friends part.)
It's not that you need to fake an emotional response, you just need to express the emotional response that you do have. Because you're not a robot, you do have emotions. You just tend to keep them quiet or at best words-only, when what your partner needs is more than words.
Imagine if the person you're dating is doing the same thing you're doing. Waiting to hear from you. It's been a day, so you must be busy, so they continue to do whatever they were doing. If they don't hear from you for a week, they assume you're no longer in a relationship with them, they don't need to call you to confirm this, they just go off and be sad.
In that entire situation you're not interacting or sharing yourself with them at all. You say you want that romantic connection, well, it takes two to tango. You're not doing any connecting. You're reacting. And when given nothing to react to…you don't react.
It can feel like 'dead air.' Uncomfortable silence. How is the other person supposed to know you care if you can just as easily say 'meh' if you don't hear from them?
Now, different people are different. But what I get from your description of your experiences is that you are hard to read.
Honestly, I find your kind of person awesome, honest, refreshing, unpredictable. I could guess what you're going to do and then you do something completely unexpected and so much more awesome. That's the kind of person I want for a 'partner in crime.' Someone to keep me on my toes. And kinky to boot? You're all that and a bag of chips and don't let your sub-par dating experiences make you think otherwise.
If anything, just work on giving some more attention. As interested in you as I would be, even I could see how the "does she even like me?" thoughts would just wear the relationship down after awhile. Show active, engaged interest in the other person, don't just say it, show it. Bump the stalker side up a notch (only a notch though! It's safe for you because you're already at the extreme low side of the scale), be interested in them, want to know more about them, be involved in what they're doing. The 'out of sight out of mind' vibe has got to go. Even if that's not what you feel, even if it's not what you say, but it's what you show, then that's what they're gonna think you feel. And they're just gonna assume "She's just not that into me."
You are clearly an awesome and amazing person. Just open up a little more. Definitely don't fake anything. But unless you find someone with an abnormally low need for emotional reassurance, you're going to have to reach out just a little more than you currently do. I mean, you're independent, you're stable, and it's awesome and amazing to witness, but there's always a little 'risk' in love and if you aren't willing to risk some emotional vulnerability, nobody else will be willing to risk their emotions on you, either.
Does that make sense? I think it's a crime for someone as awesome as you to be single unless you wanna be.
Thanks! I have gotten that feedback before, like "I can't tell if you like me", usually I reassure them, but this is only an issue in the very beginning. Usually it's very clear if I enjoy a person's company, I'm very affectionate, etc. But I will try to up my stalker factor. I used to be a lot more – I don't know – intense (if that's the right word?) when I was younger, but I've kinda grown up and conquered my insecurities and such, and realized I can't strong-arm and I can't trick anyone into a relationship, nor should I want to. Gah! Dating! Hard! See boys, it's not just you, women are bad at it too.
I would not mind staying in touch, my email is on my website (that I think you've found, if not its on my twitter profile). I like new friends, even long distance ones. If not for them, who would I talk to on gchat all day at work?
It could just be that you get to the bottom of why a relationship isn't going to work out faster than most people. Some people take years to get to the realization that there's no long term there; maybe you just take months. Maybe you just need to keep dating until you meet the right guy.
Wait a min… are you the same Amanda Marcotte that writes for Slate XX?
Oh, I meant more like if I text them over the course of the week, and I don't hear back at all. I don't just sit around on my muffet all day waiting for the guy to contact me.
P.S. I would re-evaluate your hosting service- I really liked MMhosting, it's fairly inexpensive and has great customer service, and a great cPanel
Your guy friends are right that a lot of men "test" women by forgetting to call them, seeing if they get mad and then they have an emotional upper hand and feel that they have a sense of control over her. But those guys are assholes; don't date them and don't play their games.
Turns out the blog's getting hammered today. Lots of inbound links from Reddit and League of Legends. I'll up the memory on the VPS and see if that helps.
I posted a reply earlier, but it doesn't seem to be showing up… Odd. Anyway, in answer to this:
"Ladies: how would you prefer a guy to turn you down if they realized that it wasn’t going to work out?"
I completely agree with DNL's advice. Honesty is the best way to go. I can't speak for all women, obviously, but to me it feels worse when I think I've connected with a cool potential friend and then over time I realize the guy was only faking his friendly interest, rather than being told up front that the guy's really looking for more than friendship, and since I can't offer that, it's probably better for both of us if we don't keep hanging out.
Yep, it can be awkward telling someone you're not interested in just friendship. But I think most women won't be offended as long as you're good-natured about the rejection. We know that a significant number of the guys who chat us up are probably hoping to get something more-than-friendly out of it, and so I think most of us understand that if things can't go in that direction, you'd want to move on.
… awwwwwwww!
I think I may have accidentally done the opposite, NEVER EVER TALKING to somebody who turned me down on a date. At the time, I was totally afraid of them (was my first attempt at romance.) Now, I am worried I made them feel unvalued as a person or something.
I like DNL's suggestion on telling someone that you're interested in romance, not friendship. It's refreshingly honest without being rude. It doesn't leave the woman wondering what she did wrong during the tea meetup. It suggests that you take friendship seriously, a sign of a quality person. And it flatteringly implies that you find her too attractive to settle for just being friends. Even if that's not precisely what you mean, it's a very palatable suggestion and therefore likely to go down well.
Yes. This. I concur.
Side note: it's annoying when you reject someone (because you didn't like them), they keep trying to be your friend. If I don't want to date you because I don't like you as a human being, why would I want to be friends with you?
"Ladies: how would you prefer a guy to turn you down if they realized that it wasn’t going to work out?"
I think DNL's suggestion is perfect for Lonerboy's situation. I might be disappointed to hear that someone didn't want to pursue a friendship with me, but it's clear and the rationale is easy to understand. I think most mature, reasonable people will be able to accept that explanation, and that those in the "BUT IT'S NOT FAAAAAIR!" camp are people you'd rather not have in your life anyway.
If we're talking about a romantic rejection from someone I know, something along the lines of, "I've enjoyed [HOWEVER WE'D PREVIOUSLY BEEN INTERACTING], but I don't think dating would be a good idea," would be sufficient. The reasons aren't really important and almost certainly won't make me feel better. If it's a rejection from someone on a dating site or who I've just met, ignoring my message or excusing yourself from the conversation is plenty.
As a former Microsoftie, I learned that geeky/engineer/programmer types like to think that they're liberated about sex (because they're "logical" about it), but they rarely are. Repressing your emotions/trying to live only with your logical side makes you less in control of your emotions, not more (case in point: a colleague who said I was "too emotional" because I was having a stressful day and went in the bathroom and cried (in private — she saw me coming out of the stall and fixing my mascara) for a few minutes; I pointed out to her that I had the emotional release, and was over it, whereas she was still piqued about something another member of our department said to her weeks ago, and was making decisions about how our teams worked together based on that pique).
So, first they have some of those Madonna/Whore assumptions, and second, those assumptions become very emotionally charged for them. And unfortunately, this means that if you try to talk rationally with them about it, they'll *think* they're being rational, but they won't be (it's the same sort of fallacy that leads to people with higher education/IQ being more likely to believe in astrology or other BS).
Because of this, I'd avoid trotting out the kink at first. You have a responsibility to disclose, I think, if you're entering into a relationship — or if you're intending to do some kinky stuff when you go to bed — but that doesn't mean you have to disclose immediately or even the first time you go to bed. Let them get to know you and appreciate you a bit first, then tell them. It's possible that otherwise good guys are getting scared off early, and could come to accept it if they already like you, but if they get to know you and your kink is still too much for them, they're probably not right for you anyway.
I've had people hit on me when I've had a boyfriend. They ask me out, I tell them I'm unavailable, no need for awkwardness about a phone number. Once I mention the boyfriend, ideally I'd like to hear, "he's a lucky guy" or something along the lines of "no hard feelings, see ya". If a guy still asked for my phone number after I'd mentioned that I'm unavailable, I would not give it to him unless I had a very good reason to believe that he legitimately wanted to be my platonic friend. If a guy changed his mind about a date he'd already planned with me, I think I'd ideally like honesty without brutality ("I'm looking for a girl to date but I need for her to be single") but I would assume that it was just not going to work out if I gave my number to someone who didn't end up calling me.
Keep in mind that shooting down a person already in a relationship is probably not going to hurt as much as shooting down a person who is single and looking and finding nobody. That "nobody is interested in me" feeling doesn't really apply to partnered people.
Loner Girl, I am so much like you it's not funny. People pretty much think I'm a dude in a girl's body. Most of my friends are guys, I'm very direct and non-clingy. In regards to my relationship with my boyfriend, a lot of people like to tell me that I'm the guy in it, and he's the girl. (He isn't girly at all, just in regards to how he acts within the relationship, he tends to be the one who is more insecure/jealous/clingyetc, more traditionally considered 'female' traits.) He is my first serious relationship, before that I was only interested in casual friends with benefits scenarios. One guy I was seeing briefly used to annoy the crap out of me because he'd stay the night and the next day he just WOULDN'T LEAVE. And I would be sitting there, playing my Playstation and he would just sit around watching me. Drove me nuts. Anyway, just saying I understand well the not being traditionally feminine rubbish. However I've never had the problem you have with not being able to turn something into a serious relationship. Usually I'm the one having to tell them I want to keep it as casual as possible please.
I have to post more than once coz my reply wouldn't fit. Gah.
I've got two theories for you, maybe neither are correct, but they're the most obvious that I can think of.
1. American guys (or at least the guys you hang out with) have some sort of bizarre problem with direct, straight-foward women who are not traditionally girly and know what they want. This has never been an issue for me living in Australia and I've never had guys say the crap to me that they say to you eg "be more emotional and girly", most of the guys I know love how direct and honest I am. So theory 1 is different culture, different idea of what's attractive.
Still wouldn't all fit! Wtf I didn't think it was that long!
2. Are you actively looking for a relationship or is it more that you start to really fall hard for someone and then they bring out the "friends only" stuff? Coz if it's the former that's probably the issue right there. It's Murphy's Law right there – you'll never find what you're looking for if you're looking for it. Especially in relationships. So many people spend their time actively looking for a relationship rather than just falling into one naturally because they happen to really, really like a person. And the person you're with can usually tell.
If it's neither of these things, then that's all I've got, I'm sorry! You sound really awesome though so please don't ever listen to those people who tell you to act like someone you're not, we don't need more braindead Kardashian clones in the world.
Thanks for all the nice and supportive thoughts! I think it's more of #1, because I don't really actively seek relationships, due to not having much time on my hands, and also hating the bar scene in my area. I do have a profile on a dating site, but I'm not terrifically active on it. Here let me give you a scenario. I met N through a mutual friend. We hung out a few times, which progressed to making out, which progressed to sleeping together. He introduced me to his friends, and had no issue meeting mine. A couple of months into it, I broached the relationship topic. I made it as low-pressure as possible, but I set a boundary, I told him I really like what we have and I'd like to move forward with it, but that he doesn't have to decide right now, and I set an expiration date at 1 month, and I wouldn't bring up again until that date. At the end of the month, he did his little non-confrontational shuffle about not being ready, and I wished him luck and told him there were no hard feelings. I was sad, but not mad at him, I can't force something the other person doesn't feel. Now, fast fwd 3 months, and I see his face show up on the dating site I'm on, and maybe 3 days later he sends me a text strongly suggesting a hookup. I politely told him that nothing has changed about what I need in the relationship, and just casually (and I'm not proud of this) asked him why he had an online dating profile if he wasn't trying to date. He laughed it off, and said "Well, my friend made me, and I just kept it, because you never know!"
I gave him pants-feelings and many evenings of digital blood splatter followed by crazy sexy-times, but he didn't *know* with me, and not *know know* like want to marry me, I mean just calling me his girlfriend. I was always the filler until he found something better. This is just the most recent example…
I have a similar story – friend of mine, I was new in the area and we started hanging out A LOT and I got to know a few of his friends. I knew that he liked me, but I wasn't keen so I made it clear we were just friends. He was cool with that, and so gracious about it that suddenly I found myself liking him a little and so suggested a friends with benefits scenario. Things went well for a while, and I started to really like him. Cue him deciding now was the time to start behaving like a complete prat. He became really argumentative, trying to pick fights with me over nothing, trying to make me jealous by hitting on other women in front of me while we were out together (which didn't work coz I'm not the jealous type at all and couldn't give two shits), and getting really lazy/selfish with the sex turning to complete shit and being just about him. Telling me how he didn't want things to get too serious, even though I never gave him any reason to think that way (I was seeing someone else at the time too, so not sure how he got the impression I was after a relationship).
Again have to keep splitting my posts! Back to story:
So I ended it because it was just too much drama for casual sex, plus the friendship had obviously turned sour. No joke, two weeks later he had himself a girlfriend! Same guy who wouldn't shut up about not wanting a girlfriend! Didn't hear from him for a few months, ran into him (and his girlfriend) at the pub one night and he proceeded to completely ignore her and hit on me while I was there with someone else (my now boyfriend, though he wasn't at the time). She tried to make HIM jealous by hitting on my boyfriend, and when that didn't work, she left in tears. He broke up with her like a week later and then proceeded to try and booty call me for the next two months. End long and confusing story.
Point is, some guys are just seriously confused and have no idea what they want. I don't necessarily think that makes you a filler (coz you don't sound like filler to me – you're not boring enough), maybe he just didn't want anything serious and didn't know how to deal with that?
On a side note, dating stories are entertaining as hell.
Actually reading that back, I'm not sure my story is all that similar. But for some reason, when I read yours it made me think of him so it linked them in my mind. Maybe you can feel the connection too. Point is, you are not a filler!!!! Also, guys can be just as vague and confusing as girls are. And I've noticed, as a non-confusing girl, we somehow end up being drawn to the very confusing guys who never like to get to the point.
Dating stories are entertaining! Yea, it didn't end up that way with N at all, we ended things completely amicably. He's not a bad guy, and no matter how he felt about committing to me, he very committed to pleasing me in other ways. In fact, he kinda spoiled me in that respect. He didn't care if I missed a day (or 2) shaving or if he knew I had a tough day at work, he would completely treat me (as in do all the work and just have me relax and enjoy, don't worry boys, I always paid him back) . He showed nothing but appreciation and admiration for my whole body, even the areas that I am most insecure with. Trust me, at the end of that month, it was a hard decision to make, because I really was enjoying myself, but at the same time, it wasn't enough. I wasn't satisfied emotionally (behold! DNL commenters! I have emotions! Cue pearl clutching!), and I told him so, and he expressed that he is unable to satisfy this particular need, so I turned him loose. It just hurts when it becomes a pattern.
Maybe Hanna Rosin is right, The End of Men is nigh! And it's gonna really suck for women.
Ooh he sounds completely different to what I was thinking, I retract all of my previous statements! Maybe he just really doesn't want a serious relationship with anyone? That's what I was like for years!
"Point is, some guys are just seriously confused and have no idea what they want."
I'd say that goes for a lot of people in general, and in situations other than dating. Because people tend to think they know what they want more than they actually do (part of people not actually thinking as much as they think they do). And it can be easy to confuse what you want, or what you think you want, with what you think you're supposed to want, unless you've done some thinking to untangle the too. So, are we all confused yet?
WE SHOULD FORM A CLUB!
I promise not to scream all the time, just when I'm really excited or hyper
I am so in on this club. We need to think of a name…