Thanks for taking my question Doc.
My question concerns whether to compete, and if so, how to compete, for a woman’s attention with another guy. As background, I’m 28 and have been without a relationship/or any meaningful dating activity for about two years. Besides a great relationship that lasted a couple years, I have never had much success in the dating department. That means I am nearly 29 years old, but with the dating skills of your average high school student (and this question practically shouts that from the rooftops). I know that I can make a relationship work once I get in such a position, but getting there for someone like me is tough.
I started taking German classes after work last week as part of my attempt to meet more people and hopefully find a date. Its a small class. There are 6 students, and we all sit along a table, four guys and two girls. There is an amazing girl (classic beautiful, and a huge brain and warm personality to boot) in the class, and two other guys are obviously interested in her along with me. Unfortunately, I am developing a severe case of “oneitis.” It is especially unfortunate, because from the way the seating is arranged, I don’t have the opportunity to work with her during partner exercises. The guy who gets to work with her is, admittedly, a much better catch than me. He is handsome, athletic, and has that reserved, detached cool of an ER surgeon. I, on the other hand, am more like a self-conscious golden retriever. I am friendly, but not at all cool, and sit squarely in the middle of the bell curve on most measures in life. I can barely focus on grammar and the like because I am too busy dying a little bit inside while she smiles her awesome smile and he tries to make her laugh with jokes about Paris Hilton. Doc, it kills me! I want to be in his shoes! I want a shot! If that dude wasn’t in class, I would already have introduced myself and asked for a drink. But now its tough, because making a move during class would be seriously weird, and after class, there will always be at least one guy vying for her attention while we walk to the parking lot.
At this point, I regret signing up for the class, because now I have 10 more weeks of watching another guy have a perfect opening with this amazing woman for whom I would happily poke out my eye with a sharp stick. I am not confident enough in the force of my personality or the awesomeness of my life to compete for her attention with this other guy, but I don’t think I could bear to watch if things kept moving forward between them without doing something, anything.
What should I do here?
2nd Place
First of all: good for you on getting out there and taking some classes. It’s a good way of making yourself a more interesting person while you’re trying to meet someone new.
Now having said that: slow your goddamn roll son. You’re locking yourself into a “what-if” death spiral. I’ve always said that nerds have the worst superpower in the world: they can perfectly map out all the horrible way that everything will go wrong and it freaks them out.
This is exactly what you’re doing. You’re imagining every possible worst-case scenario and reason why you can’t possibly do anything and you’re letting it intimidate you into not doing a damned thing. You need to quit war-gaming every scenario or thinking “if only I had X” or “if only there was a chance to do Y”; these are nothing more than self-limiting beliefs that slow you down and hold you back. The more time you’re wishing for something to happen is time you’re not spending making something happen. And if you’re not going to make your move, somebody else will.
Let’s run it down a little here.
Limiting Belief #1: Oneitis
By focusing like a laser on your in-class crush, you’re investing her with far too much importance and setting yourself up for failure. It’s one thing to think “hey, cute girl, probably awesome, I’d love to date her.”
It’s quite another when your attitude is “She’s God’s special angel and she’s made of light.”
Look, I’m sure she’s cute and has all sorts of amazing qualities, but she is just a woman, singular. There hasn’t been some sort of weird apocalypse and now she’s the last woman on Earth. She’s not your one chance at true love and if you miss out you’re doomed to be single for the rest of time. She’s a person. Same as you are. She puts her pants on one leg at a time.
She’s just the only one you’re spending your time on. There are hundreds, thousands even at the school where you’re taking classes. Tens of thousands or more in the town where you live. Millions in your state. If you ask her out and get shot down… well, that sucks and I’m sorry for you, but it won’t be the end of the world.
Limiting Belief #2: You’re Competing With Someone
The instant you start having a dick-measuring contest with someone over “who’s got a better chance”, you’ve lost. You’re spending precious time and mental energy trying to weigh your pros and cons versus his pros and cons… and you have no idea what his pros and cons really are.
You, my friend, are comparing your unedited raw footage to his highlight reel and you’re letting it psyche yourself out.
When you’re finding yourself in “competition” with other people, you’re psyching yourself out. You’re too busy looking for weaknesses in yourself to think about how awesome you are and how much you have to offer. You’re spending too much time trying to measure up against other people using a bullshit metric and not enough time building yourself up into an even more interesting and charming person.
You can’t look at other people as your competition. You can be inspired by them. You can envy them. But the only person you should be competing with is yourself, otherwise you’re going to be seeing every other person out there as a potential adversary instead of, say, a friend. Or even an ally.
There will always be people who are handsomer than you (general “you”, not you specifically, 2nd Place), funnier than you, richer than you, whatever-er than you… if you get together with this girl, are you going to spend your life looking over your shoulder for fear that someone better than you is going to come around and snatch her out from under you? Or are you going to live the best life you can and show her just how much value you have?
Limiting Belief #3: He Has A Better Chance Than You Do
You know next to nothing about this woman. You don’t know what she wants. You don’t know that this guy is her type. For all you know, she likes guys just like you – a little sheepish, maybe not the handsomest or cleverest but with a great heart. But it doesn’t matter whether that’s true or not because you’ve apparently decided it for her.
Right now: yes, he does have a better chance… because you’ve already surrendered. You’ve effectively conceded the game to him and you haven’t even gotten on the field yet.
The only way you can know for sure whether he has a better chance than you is if you get in there and make your play. She may still end up dating him… but she definitely won’t be dating you if you don’t actually make your move.
Limiting Belief #4: Wrong Time, Wrong Place
You say if it weren’t for this guy, you’d ask her out for a drink.
Well, why haven’t you already?
OK, so maybe it’d be weird in class. But after class… oh noes, more people want to talk to the pretty girl!
Guess what duder. There’s always going to be a reason why it’s not the “right time”… and the more you wait for the “right time” or the “right place”, the more chances you’re giving other people to ask her out before you do. If you don’t make your move, somebody else will.
OK, look I get that the guy’s intimidating. But unless he’s actively cockblocking you, the only thing really getting in your way is… well, you. You’re psyching yourself out again because you’re afraid of being rejected. And I understand. I really do. Rejection sucks. It hurts, literally. But that’s the price of entry when it comes to dating. You need to reach down into your core and say “You know what? Fuck this. I’m tired of being intimidated. I’m tired of being cowed. I am going to go ask her out and let the chips fall where they may.” Pull her aside with “Hey, can I talk to you for a moment?” and ask her out for that drink. Ask her after class, even with the looming “threat” of other guys vying for her attention. Ask her before class.
But you have to ask her.
There will never be a “right” moment, just the moment you make.
Limiting Belief #5: Your Life Isn’t Awesome Enough
Too many guys seem to think that they need to be perfect in order to get a girl. They need the Ryan Reynold’s washboard abs, Ryan Gosling’s dreamy eyes, George Clooney’s smoulder, Kanye’s swagger and Oscar Wilde’s wit in order to win a woman’s heart.
And if this were true, the human race would’ve gone extinct.
Look, just because you’re not in the top 1% of whatever doesn’t mean you aren’t “worthy” of a girl. Your life may not be where you want it to be – and if you’re living life right, there will always be more room to grow, more ambitions to achieve – but waiting until you’ve hit some arbitrary point is just another way of psyching yourself out and giving yourself excuses to avoid being rejected.
You’re taking this class because you want to improve yourself, right? Well, asking her out for a drink is part of the process of improving yourself. You can’t improve your skills without putting them to work.
You may not have a perfect life, but you should be able to look around and say “hey, good enough to give it a try right here, right now”. While you’re busy wishing you were at place Y, you may be missing the possibility that your crush would be very happy with you at place X in the meantime.
You may get rejected. Fine. It’ll suck and you’ll feel bad for a while. But that will fade – faster than you think – and you’ll realize that all it means you’re one person closer to finding the woman that’s right for you and one step further down the path at getting better at dating.
And that means that when you meet the next incredible woman – and there will be another woman, just as incredible – you’ll be even better prepared.
Good luck.
i have a guy friend who's about 50 times more awesome than i am. to give you an idea of what kind of guy he is, he's extroverted, charismatic, athletic, speaks four languages and has a damn MBA. he's also a very nice, intelligent, helpful, hard-working and protective person, with a touch of passion for just about every subject out there. i guess you could say he's the very definition of an alpha guy.
when i first met my ex girlfriend, he was fawning all over her, but for some reason she chose me. to this day i can't understand what this very beautiful woman saw in me when she had a more attractive prospect available to her, but i guess that just goes to show that life isn't a competition, and that there is someone out there for everyone.
also, even if she does shoot you down (which she might), don't let it get to you. like DNL said, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and most of them tend to be awesome. =)
I don't think I'd have gone for your friend, probably for the same reason your ex-girlfriend didn't: he doesn't sound like the right match for my (or presumably her) particular personality. He sounds like he'd be great to have as a friend or part of a social circle (how's that for the friend zone?) but not as a boyfriend. To me, the combination of extrovert/athlete/MBA sounds exhausting.
I don't believe there's such thing as an alpha guy, because that suggests that all women want exactly the same thing, which just isn't true. There are introvert women and extrovert women. There are athletic women and women who find working out at the gym to be tedious and exhausting. There are women who want to travel the world and women who are homebodies. And sure, most women say they want a man with a good sense of humor, but their definitions of sense of humor will vary (the woman who loves puns and the woman who loves really dark and edgy and sarcastic humor might not think the same man is funny at all).
So yeah, women = people with individual tastes and preferences.
i'd have gone out with him if i were a girl. he's awesome.
No doubt that he's awesome. Just that not every flavor of awesome is right for every person.
He probably is awesome.
But again, you're a guy and judging him as a guy. This is the second time I've cited this comic in a week
but: http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-…. What guys assume is the male ideal doesn't always line up with what women find attractive.
I know a lot of emancipated, anti-corporate feminist hippy women…there are so many things in your description of your buddy that would be major red flags of possible incompatibility for them.
Also, just because you as a straight dude think he is hot and awesome doesn't mean that your female friends will think he is hot and awesome. There is often a disconnect between what guys think is attractive to be and what women think is attractive to date. I see this often whenever bunches of women hold up as their heartthrob someone like Justin Beiber or Shaun Cassidy or the young Frank Sinatra (not the one that dudes liked from the Capitol years, but the one that thrilled the bobby soxers from the Columbia years)…and dudes, in all their homophobic and misogynistic glory, will denigrate that man by calling him gay or a woman.
Many guys valorize this hyper masculine macho type of dude that many, many women just aren't interested in. Lots of guys take as their alpha dominating men…they find that domination attractive, because they also want to have it. Many women, on the other hand, find those dominating guys oppressive rather than attractive.
So just because you have an aspirational man-crush on your buddy doesn't meant that he is attractive to women. This is important because looking to your MBA buddy may blind you to the possibility that you are much more attractive to women than he is.
Weird how over the past week or so, folks here keep saying "you don't have to be tall and muscular, women also really like androgynous fops!". Given Dr Nerdlove's target readership, this is probably about as helpful as saying "you don't need to look like Kate Moss – you can also look like Sofia Vergara!"
(which I guess is probably something that women get told all the time, sadly)
(not to single you out, Trooper6 – I agree with what you're saying otherwise)
Patrick you said, "this is probably about as helpful as saying 'you don't need to look like Kate Moss – you can also look like Sofia Vergara!'"
That made me laugh out loud…which is awkward since I'm in a café working. Thanks!
Anyhow, you have a point that either neither the general male ideal created by lots of men or the general male ideal created by lots of women, may be attainable by readers here (though, maybe not, apparently nerds nowadays look fairly close to hipsters–back in my day it was pocket protectors and no one would confuse us nerds with anything resembling hip). But very few people meet ideals anyway…which is why they are mostly fantasy–and when the rubber hits the road, in the bright light of reality with no airbrushing, people readjust. The extension of my point is that women are often not judging fellas on criteria they are judging themselves on. There are lots of women who like zaftig guys or pale guys or whatever guys, etc. I mean if women only liked the guys that fall into the most valorized types (male Kate 'Moss and dude Sophia Vergara) then men of color, working class men, etc would all be screwed…and they aren't…they find love.
Let me revisit for one second the idea that "Women only date dudes who are 6' and over." Certainly there are some women who'll say that…but that is a standard that doesn't apply as evenly as one might think. I lived in LA for years. I'm 5'6", which isn't tall, but I towered over a bunch of Mexican and Peruvian dudes I knew. Does that mean that no Peruvian or Mexican dude would ever find love? Of course not.
There are media images that do not apply to many of our demographics…and if we date people in our demographics (which is not the same as in our league) they often have compatible attraction ideals despite what our media puts out.
Case in point, out media tends to really put down rural/southern masculinities /femininities as trashy/rediculous/unattractive/etc. but when I was in the Army I was surrounded by women who though some wrangler jeans and mullet action was the hottest and dudes who thought women with tall hair and sheppler's shirt with a cutout and red cowboy boots was the hottest.
The amount of makeup, how much and what kind of facial hair, what sort of body types or interests…in the real world, attraction to these things vary incredibly…on TV and film? Not so much. We need to be kinder to ourselves and stop judging ourselves by celebrities who have the advantage of professional makeup artists and lighting and touch up people…and whose entire job is to look interesting and attractive on film (and many of whom look really weird in person).
Of course you would. He's your friend, so it makes sense that you think highly of him.
But there are almost certainly women who find your friend irritating, or who are intimidated by his accomplishments, or who want someone who's a little more low key and who will let her shine now and then, or who have different ideas about what male features and body types are most attractive.
my last comment was a joke.
I agree, he sounds exhausting. I would ultimately end up feeling I couldn't live up to his standard of achievement and feel shitty about myself.
This is an off-the-cuff theory, but I've always wondered why so many guys (both geeky and non) buy into the idea of the Alpha/Beta. From what I can tell by questioning and observation, this *seems* to be because men themselves compete for what they view as a smaller pool of eligible women. For example, if you presented a home-bodied, introverted man with an athletic, extroverted, attractive woman, his response would be" Awesome!" instead of "Not compatible."
In other words, it seems that guys (who buy into the Alpha/Beta theory) have a very narrow idea of compatibility and thus also assume that women themselves have narrow ideals. My guy friends are always blown away by the fact that I don't like Johnny Depp. "But all women LOVE Johnny Depp!" It's like it just doesn't register for them.
Again, this is a completely unscientific, off-my-head theory. Can anyone support/refute it?
I remember something on OKTrends to the effect that men's tastes in women's appearance tend to be more predictable (if a woman is conventionally attractive, almost every guy will think she's hot), whereas women are more likely to have a *type*, and if you don't fall within that type, you could be Johnny Depp or George Clooney or whatever and it doesn't make a difference – you're just not her type. This is a good thing for guys who aren't conventionally good-looking – you can deviate from the norm a whole lot and still be considered hot by a certain kind of woman.
But if you're an ugly girl you're screwed?
I can only support this via anecdote (and, really, that's all that this sort of theory can be supported with). I have a friend who thinks that "The Ryans" (Gosling, Reynolds) and "The Chrises" (Pine, Hemsworth – except when he's Thor, because, well, Thor) are absolutely unattractive, boring, snoozeville, run-of-the mill, stereotypical Hollywood hunks. Who does she find attractive? Tom Hiddleston (especially as Loki, whom she finds FAR more attractive than Thor) and Robert Carlyle (especially as Rumplestiltskin on "Once Upon A Time").
How's that for turning expectations on their heads?
I feel like this just reiterates the whole "not as interested in the package" thing about women. Sure, the package is important. You have to hit certain things I find sexy (which are wildly different from what some of my female friends find sexy) in order for me to want to sleep with you, but they're basic and flexible. But to date? Oh, that's a harder criteria. Do you know who I mean when I say Brust? Tolkien errata: full of hidden interesting bits or a money-grubbing play by Christopher? Can you make me laugh? How long can we have a Callahan's-style pun game? Can you share your hobbies without making me feel belittled for not being big into video games? Can I ramble about Star Trek or comics and have you participate rather than watch your eyes glaze over?
I don't really care what degree someone has or what they do for work if it a) makes them happy and b) pays the bills.
Because it's the best theory out there right now that explains the things you see in real life regarding which guys are dating girls, which guys are dating the hotter girls, and which guys remain perpetually single even though you (as a guy) think it should be easy for them to find a girlfriend because they seem like such an awesome guy.
I'm not sure that follows the rest of your comment though – the alpha/beta theory doesn't say that "every" girl will find you more attractive if you're the alpha, just that a lot of them will.
But what I've noticed is that guys who whine about how the "Alpha" guys get chicks are focusing on, well, "Alpha" chicks if we're going to reduce it down to simplistic components. Guys who follow this theory seem to focus exclusively on the hottest girls, the "Alphas" of women… whom they might not be compatible with anyway (not because the women are hot, but because that is the only/primary criteria the Beta males are judging.)
In strict terms, why wouldn't Alpha girls go mostly for Alpha guys? Why wouldn't the hottest women (thus having the most social currency in a society that still places far too much value on a woman's looks) go for the very best she can get? What sense does it make that an Alpha woman would go for a Beta male?
If you argue that an Alpha woman should go for a Beta male because he has nice qualities, then why aren't Beta males going for Beta females, who may not be as hot but also have good qualities just like their counterparts?
Maybe the reason those "awesome" guys are single are because they are looking at a girlfriend as a prize, and focusing on the external criteria, instead of looking for someone who they are actually compatible with.
I think these are great points. And also, guys seem to focus on the men who get ”all the women", as if successful dating equals having lots of different partners. But if you think about it, the fact that many of those stereotypical "alpha" guys date lots of different women is a sign that all of their relationships are brief. Either they're never happy enough with any woman to stay with her very long, or women don't stay interested in them past the initial infatuation stage, or a combination of the two.
If what you want is not just a partner to have a good time with in the short term, but someone who'll stick around even after the initial excitement fades, then the "alpha" guys are not a great example of success. And if you only want brief fun relationships, then it's not surprising that the women also looking for those are going to care more about whether you're "fun" than whether you're "nice”.
This is a very interesting question. My guess is that a lot of beta men want an alpha women because they feel entitled to one because of traditional social norms or want some form of abstract romantic vengeance against alpha men.
My main guess is that a lot of the beta men competing for alpha women don't really view themselves as beta. They really see themselves as alpha and getting an alpha woman as girlfriend would serve as evidence of this to the world. Traditionally and even still being an alpha woman mainly meant that you were physically beautiful. Men did not necessarily need to be hunks to be alpha men. Being rich or powerful was enough.
The good Dr. has an article on that.
And I can't like your comment enough.
I'll also point out in addition to my add-on to Marty's comment, that to some extent the dating success you're talking about is decided by the guy's behavior, not the women's level of attraction. The guys who date lots of women tend to also be the guys who are flirting with and asking out lots of women. The guys who are "awesome" but can't get dates often aren't doing much to actively meet and connect with women (either because they're intimidated/insecure, like the letter writer above, or they're just not that social so usual flirting venues aren't their scene, or whatever). If one guy is chatting up ten times as many women as another guy, it's not surprising if he has ten times as many girlfriends–not because he's so much more attractive to women than the second guy, but because he's putting himself out there. Women don't have much of a chance to decide if they find you attractive if you're not interacting with them.
(I recognize that there are some guys who are friendly with lots of women and still have trouble with dating, but I don't think that's as common. Most of the guys who post here about having trouble getting women's attention also mention that they hesitate to approach/ask out women in the first place.)
I fall under the category of friendly with lots of women but still have trouble dating.
"I've always wondered why so many guys (both geeky and non) buy into the idea of the Alpha/Beta."
Two reasons:
1) From empirical observation, some guys have better results than others, for whatever reason, both hetero- and homosocially. It's not unreasonable to give labels to points on this scale.
2) There's really no such thing as "the idea of the Alpha/Beta" – instead, there are a lot of different ideas that go by that name. This allows everyone to choose one of these ideas that fits best with their experiences. Think back to the "What makes a man attractive" post from a few days ago. There were a number of traits such as confidence, respect, humor and passion. Women in general agreed strongly. If you label men who have these characteristics and are good at displaying them "Alpha" and men who do not possess them or are bad at displaying them as "Beta", do all these women now buy into "the idea of the Alpha/Beta"? And this would not be an unreasonable labeling, many people who use these terms mean them in that (or a similar) way. Others don't, of course, and use more of a "physically good-looking guy" or "dominating asshole" definition of "Alpha". There is some overlap, for example a physically attractive guy may well be more confident as a result, and because of this it's less apparent that people talk about different things.
I think there is probably some truth to your idea. Instead of a narrow pool, it might be a function of an extended pool though – if everyone considers both "compatible" and "incompatible but attractive", those people who are widely considered attractive will influence a lot of people's perception of reality.
I think that the Alpha/Beta theory comes in large parts from male/male social interactions, since they tend to be more adversarial and competitive, even between friends. When you're in a group of people and there's an attractive, charismatic guy who's the center of attention, confidently directing the flow of the conversation, and able to freely express his opinions, you do feel sort of socially insignificant.
I suspect it's similar to the sort of the dynamic that can develop in a group of women when one is obviously more attractive than the majority of her friends. At least from what I've seen, girls can also get caught in the mindset that "nobody will ever love me if I'm not as pretty as her" from time to time. I think the difference is just that "Alpha/Beta" categories combine physical traits with personality traits, and is indicated in large part by how other people respond to them.
I think there is something to the Alpha/Beta thing, but in the sense that it actually applies in nature, not in the sense that we've redefined it as, where "Alpha" basically means "successful/handsome/aggressive." We treat "beta" like it means "failed alpha."
There are guys who are charismatic, and who naturally dominate a room when they're there. Sometimes this is a bad thing — they're loud, aggressive, and competitive; sometimes it's a positive/genuine leader thing — they're good at listening, and interesting, and people want to talk to them and pay attention to them.
There are also guys who are quieter, who don't like or want all the attention focused on them. Sometimes this is because they're shy or lack confidence, but sometimes it's just because they like smaller, lower-key and more intimate interactions as opposed to higher-energy, group-focused ones.
Being a beta isn't the same as being a failed alpha. Some dogs are happiest and most secure when they're in charge. And some dogs don't want to be in charge, and are happier when someone else is. Not every human wants to be a CEO or a performer.
And some women like one or the other. Plenty of women like quieter guys, either because they're more extroverted and like the complement, or because they also can't always handle the higher-social-energy types without feeling drained by the interaction. However, if you're extroverted and like being the center of attention, you're likely to get noticed more. And for a long time, when women didn't have as much financial independence, whether a guy could take care of you was a very practical deciding factor. So a guy who was willing to strut his stuff was doing a better job advertising, so to speak.
I think it's an increasingly outdated model, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some roots in truth.
Hey! Just gonna reiterate what the other girls said, with a personal story:
I'm a girl, and I have a guy friend who sounds a lot like your guy friend. He's awesome. He is handsome, and athletic, and speaks at least four languages, and makes a lot of money, and strives hard to be the best at everything he does, and loves to learn new things, he's extroverted, and he even knows how to cook. We've been friends since we were seven. Even though as a teenager I had a small crush on him, as I got more mature I realized I DO NOT want to date him, at all. I love him as a friend, but really, a relationship with him would be exhausting (he's very competitive, and I'm not). Also, we have very different views of what a good romantic relationship looks like.
So, yeah, there is no one ideal man (just as there is no one ideal woman/person), and people will have surprising preferences, that very often do not reflect what we're told is desirable. We should not measure ourselves by that.
When you think of dating as a competition, you're essentially saying "I wish all the other guys around here sucked so that a girl will settle for me." I don't want someone to settle for me. I want someone to date me because I'm exactly what they want right now.
Also, even if Mr. Perfect weren't flirting with her in German class, who knows what other guys might be out there in her life outside class? You'll never know if there's some hottie she crosses paths with at the gym, or some nifty lady at her weekly gaming group, or that awesome person who sits near her at church. And since you can never know the real universe of people you're supposedly competing with, there's no point in worrying about them.
There's no quicker way to piss off a potential girlfriend than to assume she must *belong* to someone. She could be dating someone, she could be "just fuck buddies" with someone, she could have a serious or mild crush on someone in her life – or she could be very happily single thankyouverymuch and not looking for romantic entanglements at the moment. It's really insulting when guys assume you're "taken" if some guy has a claim on you – even the "I have a crush and won't take no for an answer" kind – but you're up for grabs (figuratively or literally, unfortunately) if you are single and/or they don't know of any guy currently staking a claim.
"You know next to nothing about this woman. You don’t know what she wants. You don’t know that this guy is her type. For all you know, she likes guys just like you – a little sheepish, maybe not the handsomest or cleverest but with a great heart. But it doesn’t matter whether that’s true or not because you’ve apparently decided it for her."
Thanks for this. One of the problems I have with advice-column responses like this is they tend not to contradict the writer's framing of the situation, which tends to treat the woman in question as a passive prize to be one by whatever guy the writer thinks has the best qualifications. I've had guys who later became friends tell me that when we met, they wanted to go out with me, but figured that since I had guys around me who were more [$QUALITY], I wouldn't be interested in them. And my reaction was a mix of being flattered, pity, and irritation, because who are they to decide I'm so shallow that I'd choose a guy purely on the basis of how much money he has? Or looks alone? Or whatever they decided was the deciding factor for me.
"which tends to treat the woman in question as a passive prize to be one by whatever guy the writer thinks has the best qualifications"
I don't see that at all. While I agree that guys usually don't have all the info needed to actually know who the girl will choose, equating "he's obvious more attractive than me" isn't anywhere near the same as "she's a passive prize".
I’ve joined this Irish class late (ive only had 2 classes so far and have less than the others cause I’m doing a different course its a weird arrangement) recently its a colabrative subject so it means boys from my school are sent up to the girls school up the road.
We.were doing this group activity last week and got to talking with a group of the girls, they were pretty cool. I was talking to one of them wles
*very cute about this Indian trip we both applied for after class. I think I might like her. Any more general advice on asking out/flirting with people in class would be much apreciated
Both those comments are mine, my mobile browser sucks
This is another example of how romantic comedies (and coming of age comedies too) can warp a person's ideas about romance. If this were a romantic comedy then this WOULD be the story of your competition with Mr. Perfect. As soon as the Female Lead enters the movie you know she is going to wind up in a relationship with somebody by the end. The only question is which one will she pick?
In real life, her options and reasons for choosing her path are unlimited. She might not be looking for a new relationship at all. She might only be into guys who are exactly 5'11". She might already have a boyfriend. But because you've got it framed up in your head as a triangle, it seems like you've already decided that if she turns you down it's because you don't measure up to the guy that YOU decided is your competition.
You are ascribing motives to this girl without really knowing what's going on inside her head, and that is the path to despair and ruin, my friend. Just ask her out. And if you must think of this as a romantic comedy, think of it this way: If she says no, it means you're still in the opening montage and the real female lead hasn't appeared yet.
Also possible: Mr. Perfect might not even be in the competition. Maybe he's very extroverted and acts that way with everyone. Maybe he's a bit of a flirt, but already has a girlfriend. Maybe Female Lead isn't his type.
Whatever the actual situation is, I'm going to bet that it's not the perfect romantic comedy triangle.
In my opinion, this comment string is the *most* accurate of all the comments here. Sometimes you have no idea that actually, he just told her he has a girlfriend, and she's flirting back because she sees him as "safe" (because of the girlfriend thing). Or he's gay. Or she's interested in him but he's not interested in her…I have a friend who got better at game, and knowing what he does and doesn't have going on, I gotta say – it's completely surprising how often the girl it looks like he has something going on with goes nowhere, and some girl that you wouldn't even think he was involved with is actually the girl he's dating / sleeping with.
I mean seriously – more than half the time the girl you think he's dating – he's not, and he's not getting anywhere with.
It's the craziest thing, but I've just learned that if I'm interested in a girl to ask her if she's dating the guy she came with (often subtly, but it's still a question), or if she's not dating someone to flirt with her regardless of any apparent competition, as appearances are such a poor indicator of who it will turn out she's dating later.
"In real life, her options and reasons for choosing her path are unlimited."
This is absolutely true. A lot of people (guys and girls) forget that relationships are a give and take between two people. It's not just a will they won't they/who will get picked rom-com situation. Every dating situation is a unique opportunity for both people each time who can respond in a variety of ways under completely different circumstances. That's why you have to swallow your fear of rejection and step up to the plate, because if you don't even try to swing, you're never going to score.
And as for all the comments on this post about alpha males and such. I'm a girl that's willing to admit that I tend to be INITIALLY attracted to the tall, muscular (slender muscles not usually the hollywood/body building types), hunks. BUT that initial attraction only gets a guy so far as I get to know his personality – sense of humor, passions, etc. A guy can become infinitely less attractive, or on the flip-side more so, as I get to know him. Which just goes to show that a guy shouldn't be discouraged if a girl doesn't immediately grab his hand and drag him home. True story, I met two guys around the same time. One was a so-called Alpha Male, who I did cozy up to, flirt with, and offer my phone number to when prompted. We chatted for a bit and made plans for a date, but I soon found that while he was very appealing in many ways, he was far more unappealing in others. He came on far too strong too fast, made it clear that he was a thrill-seeker and game-player, and just flat out made me extremely uncomfortable. (Yes, a hot guy can still become a creeper.) The other guy was shorter and shy, but he made the effort to talk to me and get my number. I wasn't sold on him right away, but the more we talked the more I got to know his passionate side. But most importantly, he made me feel safe and comfortable, which was the total opposite of the other guy. In the end, we didn't work out, but he totally charmed me. So yeah, maybe at first a girl will zero in on the hot guy, but it doesn't mean she won't give someone else the time of day. And guys totally do the same thing, so it's ridiculous to whine about it. I mean a guy is far more likely to glance over the booth babe at Comic Con or the model-like chick before scanning the room for an average-looking girl they might have a connection with. But looks only matter so much and get someone so far. So stop whining (which is supremely unattractive) and take a chance!
Agreed! Hot guys can be the WORST creepers. I hate when my guy friends feel bad and assume they "look creepy" because they're not Hugh Jackman. Looks have nothing to do with being a creeper; apart from t-shirts joking about rape (as was commented on in another article) I can't think of anything appearance wise that says "creepy." It's all how a guy acts; gorgeous or not.
Ladies, can you think of anything?
I can think of a handful of things, but all of them are pretty rare. Sometimes trying way too hard to achieve a look that's not right for the guy's personality can come off as creepy, or at least the wearer's squirming discomfort ends up negatively affecting everyone else. I occasionally see this on people who are wearing severely age-inappropriate clothing, or guys who've recently tried to do self-makeovers. The Abercrombie CEO in today's article on Gawker comes off as a bit of a creep because of that.
Terrible hygiene can also unintentionally give off a creep vibe. I don't mean sweaty after doing manual labor, or lazy going to take an exam, or sweaty after working out. I mean when you get the sense someone hasn't washed his hair in a few weeks or his clothes in a few months.
Beyond that and some especially crude t-shirts, being creepy is almost always about behavior in my book. I've met quite a few attractive creeps.
I agree with completely. The problem with love stories is that depicting a realistic romance is both boring and time-consuming. Most really good romantic relationships in reality take time to develop. If you read the vows sections in most newspapers, you will find an on again and off again theme is common in most relationships before marraige happens. Or to give nerdier examples, Peter Parker and Mary Jane were on and off again before they got married. Romantic comedies have about two hours to depict a love story and are in a media that requires conflcit. This is why under-person competing with the Mr/Ms. Perfect is a common plot point.
From the woman's perspective, no one's competing for her. She started taking a class a couple of weeks ago. She was partnered up with an outgoing guy. Maybe she's a little interested in him, maybe she thinks his Paris Hilton jokes are stupid, maybe he kind of reminds her of her brother. There are some other guys in the class too. Maybe she's interested, maybe she's not.
But no one's asked her out yet. Maybe none of the men in the class will. They might suffer from the same insecurities you do, or you might be interpreting friendliness with flirting. It's possible that no one has asked her out in awhile, and that she'd be really excited. You might think she's amazing, but she's just another human with her own insecurities and quirks. It's also possible that she's not open to dating any of the men in your class. You don't know until you ask her, and I'm going to guess that whatever the result is, it has a lot less to do with her partner than you're imagining it does.
About #5, I’d suggest the letter writer go get the Ben Folds song, “There’s Always Someone Cooler Than You” and listen…
“Smile. Like you’ve got nothing to prove. No matter what you might do, there’s always someone out there cooler than you. “
Hey 2nd place (and others like him), there's so many platitudes that come to mind over this situation. The first one to come to mind is "Life's a gift, why waste it?"
Step one, ask her out, step two, get rejected, step three, realize the world hasn't ended and move on. It's the fact (emphasis on fact) that sometimes step two isn't "get rejected" that we bother with this process in the first place. But it's also a fact that yes you will get rejected. (Not referring to this specific instance of course, just in general.)
I've suffered from oneitis so I know what it's like. But the thing that cured me of oneitis is, how can she possibly be the one if she doesn't want you back? You can be head over heels for someone and totally infatuated and have a massive crush, but that's going to happen at least a handful of times in your life for most people, if not more. Even people who fall in love and get married early in life often get 'crushes' on other people (that's why you see so much cheating and/or poly relationships, and even those who don't cheat are still very often 'tempted.')
As far as the approach itself, for this exact situation I'd walk up to her, even if she's talking with someone else (three second rule!) and be like "Hey, I don't mean to interrupt, but could I talk to you alone for a minute?" (With or without the word 'alone'.) Take her aside, it doesn't even have to be out of earshot of others, and ask her out. Be specific, and name X activity at Y place at Z time. "There's this Art Gallery on Saturday that I'm going to, and I'd really love it if you'd care to join me." (Replace with your date idea and/or preferred wording, I'm no expert on that, seek advice from others if you need help on that part.) I'd recommend something 1-2 weeks into the future at most. Definitely stay away from the 'something sometime' form of the question. The "Would you like to get together and do something sometime?" question is wimpy and even if she says yes you don't have a date!
How she reacts to your proposition clues you in. Look at body language and facial expressions and the amount of eye contact, etc. You're gonna be able to tell whether she's interested before she even says a word if you're paying close enough attention. So even if the answer is 'no', you'll know whether you still have a chance with her or not. Another big sign if you really need verbal signs is, if she says no but offers alternatives, that's a big sign that she actually does want to and wishes she could say yes.
Like everything else though, don't hang your entire judgement call on a single signal.
But make a move, the worst she can say is no.
And no matter how bad a no is, the having never tried is always worse.
"Step one, ask her out, step two, get rejected, step three, realize the world hasn't ended and move on."
Apply this basic advice to nearly everything to avoid making yourself miserable. Failure happens. It really is not the end of the world.
Pay her the compliment of assuming that she can make up her own mind. Right now you're making it up for her by assuming that she wants the other guy. My husband did this for years, he tells me. Then he decided that he would maybe let me decide for myself. Reader, I married him.
Thanks for the advice, Doc! This list applies to life in general, really. Especially #5. I've been recently in a kind of awkward place, getting way more attention from guys but recently laid off and directionless in so far as I'm not sure where I want to focus my career. It felt really weird to go on dates and tell people that I didn't know what I was doing with my life. I thought it would be a total turn off and had already set myself up mentally for making an awkward change in the conversation to avoid discussing it at length. Tuns out, I didn't have a reason to worry. Most people I've met have either understood my circumstances from their own experiences, or just understood the general feeling of being in a sort of limbo. Best of all, it pushed the subject to our hobbies and interests (a far more passionate discussion than work). Once my date(s) saw that I wasn't just sitting on my ass staring at monster.com, it turned out they didn't care about my job situation. I guess it's truly all about how you frame it.
If you come straight out with a request for a date – especially if you set it up as a binary question "Do you want me or do you want him?" – the answer is likely to come back "neither." Sometimes with a side of "Let me take a class in peace, dude." She's got a right to just take a class without showing interest in either of you – and for all you know, she might have a significant other (male or female) elsewhere.
What you CAN do is to invite her to something casual. So casual that you don't need to pull her aside to ask. Walk with her (and whatever other guys are hanging around) after class and suggest she come to some large-group event coming up – a concert, a party, whatever – and mention how awesome it will be. Don't invite her to be your date, don't suggest you make plans together, just "You should do this because it will be cool and I'm looking forward to it." Think of it as making a "date" for a time to make the opportunity for a real date later on. Best if it's something with a lot of people and she won't have to RSVP for it, so she doesn't have to commit one way or the other. If she's into you, she'll make a point of going and then the two of you will both have something to talk about ("Having fun yet? Cool! Can you believe what the professor said in class yesterday? Me neither!") and have a natural reason to have a private conversation once you're there. If she's into you but not able to go, you'll have already made the first move and she'll make a point of telling you she's sorry she couldn't go and she hopes you two can get together sometime soon (i.e. she'll give you a clearer signal). On the other hand, if she's not into you, you didn't have to put yourself "out there" and won't have to deal with weirdness during class for the rest of the semester.
For another female perspective- I wouldn't want to date Golden Boy because of the Paris Hilton jokes. I don't particularly care for her, but a guy putting down other women in front of me is a warning signal about how he thinks about women.
Lol, but as they like to say, women are not a homogenous group who all act, think, and feel the same way. There seems to me to be a strong correlation between guys who are able to joke about women with other women and those guys being "good" with women.