Olivia Munn and The Threat of the Fake Geeks

On Saturday, Cliff Bleszinski, creator of games such as Gears of War, went off on a rant about actress Olivia Munn. Among his complaints, he leveled the charge that Olivia Munn is a fake geek girl who is engaging in cultural appropriation of nerd culture.

My immediate thoughts on the subject can only be summed up in meme form:

you-keep-using-that-word

It’s hard exactly to sum up just how Olivia Munn is appropriating nerd culture, seeing as CliffyB didn’t bother actually going into detail other than to rant about her being an asshole and making the usual “your anger only makes me stronger” posts that people seem to think proves that they’re not bothered by the response.

But while there’s a certain amount of irony in CliffyB calling people hipsters for using phrases like “gatekeeping” while slinging terms like “cultural appropriation”, it’s a charge that gets thrown around regularly without irony (usually by people who think using “SJW language” is a magic spell) at women who have the temerity to claim to be geeks or to like geeky properties.

What’s Cultural Appropriation Anyway?

The term “cultural appropriation” crops up a lot these days. When fashion designers decide that it would be a good idea to dress their (white) models in feathered Native American headdresses and “war paint”, when pop singers dress up in Geisha cosplay or saris and bindis, when photographers and models paint themselves with Day of the Dead sugar skull make-up, and white model-actress-whatevers start wearing cornrows (and when the New York Post claims that UFC fighters created them…), we hear about cultural appropriation.

Also some seriously bad taste.

Also some seriously bad taste.

So what’s the problem, exactly?

At its core, cultural appropriation is treating cultures like a pick-and-mix grab bag of ideas for the dominant majority culture (almost always white) to dip into and adopt as their own. It treats other people’s culture, history and identities as a source of exotic flavor without any regard for the cultural context from which the ideas originate. It’s treating other cultures, especially minority cultures, as a stereotype at best, reducing them to a cartoonish caricatures instead of people. At worst, it’s quite literally stealing their accomplishments and claiming them for your own. Rock and roll, for example, has a long history of cultural appropriation as white bands would take African-American music (such as the music of Muddy Waters) and claim it as their own creation, erasing the contribution of the people who came before.

But it’s not always on the level of the Beach Boys straight-up ripping off Chuck Berry or Led Zeppelin stealing from Howling Wolf and Willie Dixon; it’s also a series of acts of profound disrespect for the culture that’s being stolen from. When Katy Perry dresses up like a geisha at the American Music Awards, it’s not a sign of her love and respect for Japanese culture, it’s adopting stereotyped imagery. She’s not even embodying true geisha costuming or tradition but the Exotic Oriental Flower. It’s a white person’s fantasy of a geisha, turning a long and historically rich world of artisans and performers into a gimmick.

Who needs subtle sophistication and decades of training when you can just throw cherry blossoms all over the place instead?

Who needs subtle sophistication and decades of training when you can just throw cherry blossoms all over the place instead?

When frat bros start getting marked up with Pacific Islander tattoos, it ignores the fact that in those cultures, the tattoos are the story of an individual’s family history. To us, the tattoos are gorgeous geometric designs; to the Maori people, it’s literally stealing somebody else’s life story for decoration. Similarly, the sugar-skull make-up and Native American headdresses aren’t just a nifty aesthetic, they’re part of another culture’s religious traditions, borrowed without any regard or respect to the meaning behind them other than “it looks cool”.

To the cultures these are being taken from, this is profoundly insulting and the implicit message is that they’re inherently lesser – a thing to provide zest to others rather than a people with their own distinct and discrete values.

Which brings us to the idea of the appropriation of nerd culture…

How Do You “Steal” Nerd Culture?

The implicit accusation that Olivia Munn is somehow appropriating nerd culture is that she’s an outsider, someone who’s been faking her geek cred for a decade now in order to support her career. Before we take on the idea of fake geek girls (again) let’s talk a little about just what nerd culture is.

Geek culture is liking geeky shit. Period, the end.

In order to appropriate the culture, you’d have to have some concrete examples that nerd culture is somehow a separate group, with its own values, rituals and belief systems distinct from others. But what, exactly, makes up “nerd culture”? Building your own computer? PC gamers are a minority within geek circles; most people play games either on consoles or smartphones. Playing video games? Everybody’s a gamer these days. The stereotypical frat bro is playing Call of Duty, NBA Live 16 and Madden 16 and everybody plays games on their smartphones. Show me someone who doesn’t play Angry Birds or Candy Crush and I’ll show you someone without thumbs.

Stare into the face of the typical modern gamer!

Stare into the face of the typical modern gamer!

Is it loving genre entertainment? The list of top 50 highest grossing movies of all time is filled with geek properties. Batman, Supergirl and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D all have popular television incarnations. Networks like the CW are almost exclusively broadcasting genre shows. Nerds may be plentiful, but there ain’t enough of us to buy all those tickets to Deadpool.

Similarly, certain “rituals” like lining up for tickets for popular movies, cosplay or attending events like comic or sci-fi conventions are hardly exclusive to geeks. Sports fans dress up in their team’s colors, paint their faces, wear outlandish outfits and attend autograph signings and fan-events in droves.

Because this is totally different than dressing as the Dovahkin or Nick Valentine...

Because this is totally different than dressing as the Dovahkin or Nick Valentine… (via Destructoid)

Hell, Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder and World of Darkness games barely differ from fantasy sports leagues.

The problem with trying to define geek and nerd “culture” is – as always – that it’s hardly an exclusive club. You aren’t raised in geek culture. You aren’t born a nerd to nerd parents, who’re raising you in the Nerd Region of the United States with it’s long history of Nerdiness. You become a geek by enjoying things. That’s it. There’s no other barrier to entry, no licensing board to apply to.

You can’t “appropriate” nerd culture because there is no distinct culture to steal from. It’s a “culture” (as it were) of choice. A person can become a geek by deciding they really like comics or superheroes or sci-fi and walk away from geekdom with all the ease of turning off a television or deleting a set of bookmarks. Almost everything that people hold up as outward signs of geekiness are based around consumptionHow, exactly, is one supposed to appropriate seeing The Force Awakens on opening day or binge-watching Daredevil on Netflix?

The idea that there are people who “can’t” be geeks is another case of bullshit gatekeeping and revisionist history as people forget (or were ignorant of its existence) the origins of their own fandom.

Sexism, False Dichotomies and Ivory Towers

It’s significant that it’s Olivia Munn – a woman whose career started on the G4’s Attack the Show, and who name-checks Wonder Woman in the title of her autobiography – being accused of being a fake geek. Being a regular at San Diego Comic Con and cast as Psylocke in the upcoming X-Men: Apocalypse are apparently supposed to be marks against her, signs that she cynically manipulates innocent and unassuming geekboys (which presumably includes casting directors and agents) in order to boost her own profile. Every geek shibboleth she passes is to be seen as a sign of just how devoted she is to her deception.

Meanwhile, nobody bats an eye at the fact that Henry Cavill is playing Superman without demanding a deep background check to prove that he “deserves” the role. Hugh Jackman may be an icon as Wolverine, but nobody cares about whether or not he has an encyclopedic appreciation for the character’s long and convoluted history. Chris Evans and Ryan Reynolds may be lauded for being unabashed comic geeks, but nobody cares whether Mark Ruffalo is playing the Hulk because of the paycheck rather than out of a love for the character.

HOW DARE HE?!?

HOW DARE HE?!?

Similarly while Mayim Bialik – who has a PhD – is complimented on being good at faking being a scientist, nobody accuses Jim Parsons and the rest of the Big Bang Theory ((And before it comes up: the folks who call BBT “nerd minstrel show” are a. not helping and b. being really offensive… )) cast of being fake geek boys, nor is Chuck Lorre ever accused of “nerd appropriation” despite BBT being one of the most cynical cash-grabs at the nerd community in history.

biyalik-1

And while folks may be annoyed at Ian McShane’s dismissal of Game of Thrones as “tits and dragons”, nobody is accusing him of somehow duping naive fans into believing that he’s “one of them”.

It’s all part and parcel of the same self-mythologizing that far too many nerds indulge in; we’re a “persecuted minority” (despite all of pop-culture catering to us) because we weren’t popular in high-school and people made fun of us for loving Star Wars. The idea that a woman – particularly someone as conventionally attractive as Olivia Munn – couldn’t possibly be a geek revolves around the idea that no attractive women could a) have a history of being bullied or unpopular or b) enjoy geek properties without said background. The “only” reason they could be displaying an interest in The Flash or Black Widow or Captain Marvel is because they’re trying to get geek (read: male) attention.

Geekdom may have been the refuge for the socially awkward and the bullied, but it was hardly their exclusive province. Being bullied doesn’t make you a geek, nor does being a geek mean that you had a shitty time as a child. Plenty of nerds had a perfectly lovely childhood and plenty of bullying victims don’t fall into the classic geek narrative; Tom Cruise, anyone? Similarly, loving nerdy shit doesn’t automatically go hand-in-hand with poor social skills or being socially awkward. Richard Feynman was, among other things, a noted ladies man as well as a brilliant theoretical physicist

For that matter, being a woman doesn’t magically gift you with an ability to navigate all social situations nor does it keep you from being bullied for being smart, geeky or from fitting in.

The idea that geekdom was always the last refuge for “beta males” and other boys who were excluded by the cool kids, bullied by the jocks and rejected by the cheerleaders and queen bees is an artificial construct. Yes, boys and men who didn’t fit in did and (and still don’t) find “their people” amongst the others on the Island of Misfit (Yet Still Collectable) Toys… but it was never exclusively theirs until outside forces decided that it was strictly a boys club.

And geekdom bought it, hook line and sinker.

The Forces Behind the Rise of the “Fake” Geek Girl

To dispel the idea that geek interests – comics, video games, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. – were exclusively a “guy” thing, we only have to go back 40 years. Advertisements for arcade games, home computers and video game consoles pitched them as appealing to men and women. Commercials for the Atari system and ColecoVision regularly featured boys and girls enjoying the wonders that 80s technology could produce.

Hell, it was even sold as something that couples did...

Hell, it was even sold as something that couples did…

Go back further and it becomes abundantly clear that women have not just been part of geek culture since its inception, but in most cases invented the genres that make up most geek properties. The first masked hero? The Scarlet Pimpernel, written by Emma Orczy. The first true example of science fiction? Frankenstein Or: A Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelly. Even the STEM fields that so feed into nerdery and geekdom were influenced by women; Ada Lovelace was the first computer programmer and instrumental to the creation of the Babbage Engine. Women programmed and maintained ENIAC, the first general-purpose computer. Radia Perlman helped build the Internet.

Fake geek girls indeed...

Fake geek girls indeed…

There was never a moment in the history of what might be called the geek community that women weren’t intrinsically involved… until they were purposefully and deliberately excluded.

In the 80s, following the crash of the gaming console market, publishers and marketers embraced the idea of market segmentation. Because boys traditionally were earlier adopters of new tech1 and thus easier to market to; as a result, it was deemed to be easier to sell to a smaller, more targeted audience than to a broader population. The article “No Girls Allowed” by Tracy Lien illustrates just how quickly the market changed – not due to market forces but because of executive fiat, creating a recursive loop. More geek properties were marketed towards boys, which meant more boys were buying them, which in turn drove more marketing. It was taken as writ that girls were not into geeky subjects – even when girls were actively participating in them – leading to a culture of disincentivization  In fact, women were often deliberately excluded as being an undesirable market – a trend that continues today: witness the cancellation of Young Justice, the exclusion of Black Widow from Avengers playsets and merchandise, Rey from Star Wars toys, etc.

But it was also that change in marketing that created the idea of “fake geek girls”.

Marketing reinforced not just the idea that there were no geek girls, but also used the reward of female sexuality to gain appeal. As soon as boys were locked as the target audience, marketers started to pander with tits and ass because hey, nerds are undersexed anyway, right? The deluge of ads in magazines featuring half-naked women do the double work of saying “Look at these sexy babes who love you because you’re a geek,” and “This is the closest you’ll ever get to a boob, loser”.

Subtle.

Subtle.

Those booth babes that are so frequently the object of nerd scorn aren’t models who’ve chosen the “easier” path towards riches, fame and attention2, they’re working stiffs who’ve been hired by people who cynically believe that all it takes is a pretty smile and abundant cleavage to get nerds to buy shit. And if fake geek girls are such a threat, gaining “attention” under false premises, then clearly it works.

The idea that a woman might fake being a geek in order to make her career is part and parcel of this artificial dichotomy: the only way that this could work in the first place is because marketing schemes have so convinced nerds that attractive female geeks were so rare that a girl who liked video games and comics was so rare you would have better luck finding a leprechaun riding a unicorn. Toss in a good twenty or so years of the geek community being told that women exist as rewards and consumable objects and now you have an audience primed to believe that women are tricking their boners by pretending to like games or comics or computers for nebulously sinister reasons.

Which brings us back to CliffyB’s insistence that Olivia Munn is somehow appropriating geek culture…

Olivia Munn and the Changing Demographics of Geekdom

The ongoing accusations of famous people being fake geeks – up to and including Felicia “created a fucking web series at a time when web series weren’t a thing” Day – is the unpleasant combination of bullshit gatekeeping behavior colliding with the changing demographics of the geek community that began in the late 90s. As more and more women take an active part in geekdom, the more it feels to many men that they are no longer being catered to… and the idea that other people are getting the same attention from marketers and content producers leaves the self-proclaimed old-guard feeling increasingly marginalized. That, in turn leads to more gatekeeping and attempts to keep the halls of fandom “pure” from these interlopers.

CliffyB’s callout is supposed to enrage us over this “outsider” taking something from us that’s ours. It reeks of trying to find some reason to rally the hordes against this person because… she was a dick to his friends? She took a well-paying job for the money and worked at it for over six years? She was an asshole to the stuntwomen on X-Men: Apocalypse? What does this have to do with “appropriating nerd culture” or being a fake geek girl?

Liar! Liar! LIAAAAAAR!

Liar! Liar! LIAAAAAAR!

The idea that Munn is somehow “appropriating” anything is absurd. What exactly is being taken, other than someone claiming to be a geek without doing the proper obeisances is left to the imagination; most of CliffyB’s complaints seem to revolve around her being an unpleasant person to work with who didn’t get along with her co-stars at G4. Perhaps that’s true. I have no idea and frankly, I don’t care.

If – for suitably dubious values of “if” – she were claiming to be a geek when in reality she views us with contempt… how, exactly does this affect anything? At worst, the only difference between Munn and Ryan Reynolds is that she doesn’t hold the same love for Psylocke and Wonder Woman that Reynolds has for Deadpool and Hal Jordan. Hardly a crime worthy of social exile or opprobrium considering that the man who embodied one of geekdom’s most beloved characters went to his grave deploring his work in Star Wars as the worst thing he’d ever done.

If we’re to be upset that she pretends to love something she doesn’t, then we should be getting equally upset every time an actor or celebrity goes on a press junket to promote a film they know damn good and well is a steaming pile of shit.

Fake geek girls aren’t a thing. “Cultural appropriation of nerd culture” isn’t a thing. Geekdom’s got enough problems that we don’t need to invent new persecution complexes and boogeymen to perpetuate them.

  1. And before you suggest it, no, being quicker to want to play with the new shiny thing isn’t inherent in being a geek []
  2. The idea of working a booth at a convention being ‘easy’, btw, inspires no end of laughter to people who’ve actually done it… []

  • Trakiel

    "Hell, Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder and World of Darkness games barely differ from fantasy sports leagues."

    OMG YES.

    On another message board I frequent one of the members was making fun of people who play table-top RPGs. We had the following exchange:

    Me: You play Fantasy Football. You're just as much of a nerd as I am.

    Him: Did you just compare some nerd game people play in their parents basements to sports?

    Me: Let's see: Every Friday I get together with my friends and pretend to play a sorcerer in my friend's Dungeon & Dragons game. In order to make the best sorcerer I could, I consulted a bunch of books and online advice to determine how best to allocate my character's statistics. So while the success of my character often hinges on a dice roll I can't control, how I built my character strongly impacts how successful he will be.

    You're in a "league" where you and a bunch of guys pretend to play NFL general managers. You all got together last week to draft your teams. In order to make the best team you could, you consulted a bunch of magazines and online advice to determine how best to allocate your draft picks. So while the success of your team hinges on the outcome of a game you can't control, how you built your team strongly impacts how successful it will be.

    So tell me again, you and I are different how?

    • The only difference whatsoever is that society flipped a coin and decided to celebrate athleticism over storytelling. That's really it. It's quite silly.

    • adamhunter1223

      I may have to take this for my own personal use. Because I fucking need it…

    • ZenithBerwyn

      I've identified as a nerd and weirdo as long as I can remember, and I've never given a crap about role-playing games. But I excel at fantasy sports. Fantasy is:

      1) very statistically oriented, and therefore
      2) the nerdiest possible way to appreciate sports (short of becoming a baseball sabermetrician);
      3) a good way to connect with "normal" guys, and
      4) also a good way to beat them at their own game. Which I do with some regularity.

      Also, a friend of mine (who co-founded a software company) developed a statistical model of analysis that helped him win nearly every bet he made in Vegas on the NCAA basketball tournament. This cultural "divide" is a false dichotomy, is the point I'm trying to make.

      • Shawn Cameron

        I agree wholeheartedly, while I love board games, I have always hated RPG’s, and I love fantasy football, because, while the OP is correct that they are similar enough to be equally geeky, there is one major difference between the two.

        FF is a competitive activity, while RPG’s are all about telling a story. Because it is not the goal of the GM to win, if it was, generally he could whenever he wants. But the point is to guide you through the story. Which is why I’ve never liked RPG’s because I want something competitive, not an interactive bed time story.

  • And can we please add to this that she is very far from being the only actor to claim they did all their own stunts when they didn't. Tom Cruise is probably the only actor who can honestly make that claim, and that's literally only because as the producer of his films he has the power to do so.

    • SandwichSlut

      I think Jackie Chan also did his own stunts up until age caught up with him.

      • Michael S. Moore

        Jackie Chan is still doing his own stunts, just not the crazy stuff anymore. He can't do his own stunts in his American output because production insurance won't let him.

    • Jackie Chan can, as well.

  • Lorne Michaels? You mean Chuck Lorre, right? Lorne Michaels has nothing to do with the Big Bang Theory…

    (not to take away from your excellent post!)

    • Dr_NerdLove

      Whoops. I tend to conflate the two of them regularly for some reason.

      • OtherRoooToo

        There are lots of reasons you could.

        But I don't feel like fielding the number of times I'd be called a Mean Girl if I pointed some of them out.

  • scarlet_pirate

    Olivia Munn is stuck as Attack of the Show to me, where she was (played?) a ditzy reporter. Never a fan of hers.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      I'll always remember her from The Newsroom, which is exactly why I'll always be a fan of hers.

      • scarlet_pirate

        Didn't watch it. I looked it up and "West Wing" and stuff was recommended and I don't watch those shows, so I guess that explains why I hadn't seen it.

      • She was one of the only things I liked about that show.

    • Interesting how you interpreted giddy, exuberant and occasionally sarcastic as "ditzy." Did you
      understand the undertone of double standards in this piece?

  • Should women commentators not be allowed to cover football because they can't play in the NFL?

    You made some great points, like the part where these people are actors and are getting paid because they are good at their job.

    By the way, did this happen ten years ago? Because it seems like Attack of the Show was a really long time ago, and it really feels like CliffyB's opinion was never newsworthy unless he was talking about this next game.

  • Trakiel

    Good grief, poor Olivia's now getting it from the geeksphere? She's already been getting it from football fans who accuse her of "ruining" Aaron Rodgers (or being his beard). I feel bad she's getting shit on from so many different angles.

    • shaenon

      Angry internet nerds have been mad at Munn since she left Attack of the Show for better-paying, higher-profile work that wasn't on a geek property (and didn't involve eating hot dogs suggestively). This was proof that she was a Fake Geek Girl all along. Now she's back on a geek property, and this is also evidence of Fake Geek Girlness.

      If she's rude to people off-camera, that's a shame, but whether she's a "real" geek has nothing to do with that. Obviously geeks have no problem being rude to people.

  • I see he's gone to the Kevin Smith School of Internet Debate; call people who call him out "hipsters", insult their looks, and tell everyone how hot his wife is and how much she likes to screw him, and remind everyone he drives a Lambo.

    I did get a chuckle out of the guy on twitter accusing him of "appropriating Bro Culture".

  • wwax

    Also why do "nerds" keep acting like they are some tiny insular group. Haven't these guys been to the movies or watched TV recently, Nerd culture is mainstream culture. Hell even Network channels have numerous sci fi show or shows about superheroes. My 74 year old mother has opinions about what is happening in the Marvel movie universe (lets just say she is pissed about the whole Civil War). My Mother in Law collects Star Trek Memorabilia, my niece cosplays. There is no Nerd culture anymore it's just our modern western culture.

    • Fiona Fire

      Yes!

      This is why I can't stand people, celebrity or otherwise, who feel the need to remind me, over and over, that they are geeky. Avengers and TFA made a billion dollars. Everyone likes nerdy stuff now. I've actually found that people who cling to the nerd label tend to be less accepting of people who don't display the "appropriate" level of interest in their hobby.

    • Jenn77

      Dare I ask why she's pissed about Civil War?

      • thathat

        Isn't everyone?

        • Jenn77

          I'm not. I'm thrilled to see them addressing the 'superhero collateral damage' issue everyone keeps harping on and Spidey!

          • thathat

            Eh. "Let's you and him fight" is my least favorite superhero trope. Civil War in the comics was an absolute cluster.

            And honestly, I remain surprised that people are so stoked to see Spidey. We've seen him before. Like…five times. It's still the exact same Spidey even. Peter Parker Peter Parker Peter Parker. Push back the first female-lead movie to make room for yet another Peter Parker.

            I'm kinda miffed they got him. Part of what made the MCU so successful, imho, is that they had their most iconic characters (Spidey, X-men, FF) taken away from them, and had to rely on stories they wouldn't've otherwise told. I just wish they'd branched out more before getting their best-known hero back.

            But Civil War. I mean, I'm looking forward to Steve and Bucky and T'Challa. Not looking forward to the character assassination Tony's gonna have to go through. Really not looking forward to anyone mentioning Clint's ridiculously hallmark family in their literal white-picket-fence house ever again. I guess AoU was just so disappointing for me, and I hated the comic event so much, that I'm just…eh.

          • The thing about Tony is that I can see this being in character for MCU Tony at this point in his life.

            After his PTSD he decides he IS Iron Man, not the suits, and assumes the name fully, and then sets about creating something to safeguard the planet, because he thinks he knows best, and he isn't going to turn his weapons over to the government, but that goes pear-shaped.

            He wouldn't turn the armor over, but I can certainly see him agreeing to set up containment for powered individuals who go out of control and want limits on what powered individuals could do.

            He's seen the result of what a few powered people could do, and their numbers are growing, so having them at least registered and on paper and not roaming free with Hydra or on their own would seem like a good deal.

            The comic event was a COMPLETE mess, thanks to the "planning" of Mark Millar. I can't even begin to defend or explain that.

            I am looking forward to Bendis' Civil War 2, because the idea of the heroes having only three days to solve a problem they KNOW is going to happen but being of two sides on how to deal with it is interesting.

            Soule's CIVIL WAR series for the Secret Wars cross-over was actually well done too, even if it was an alt-future/alt-world take.

            Despite feeling let down by AoU, I'm still looking forward to CA: CW, mainly because the Russo Brothers are in charge and they did right by Winter Soldier and thus far everything in the previews looks glorious.

          • Jenn77

            Well anything has to be better than 'We're upset at the current administration so we're taking it out on our characters by making them massively unlikable but also by simplifying a complicated problem and 'solving' the problem in an insulting nonsensical way which looks even more stupid a few years later' Civil War.

            The conflict and character actions feel more genuine IMO.

          • I'm pretty sure the movie version won't see Captain America giving up because a reporter makes him realize he hasn't kept up with NASCAR and doesn't have a MySpace page.

            In an event that saw some really ridiculous moments, that bit which was supposed to be right before the final battle in Paul Jenkins' Frontline book remains deeply stupid and practically insulting to character and audience.

          • Jenn77

            Oh Jesus. The healing powers of time erased that from my memory. And it looks even stupider now t hat no one care Myspace.

            [Sorry for the downvote! I hit the wrong button.]

          • adamhunter1223

            I didn't even know about this mess until I heard it was coming to the cinematic universe. Then I looked up the comics and I was like 'wut, u serious?' *some spoilers ahead by the way*

            My main problem with it is, aside from the fact that I HATE hero vs hero crap and the incredibly blatant security vs freedom political commentary (not that winter soldier was subtle about it), we just got through Winter soldier, which shows that the government was infiltrated by HYDRA to a high level. Plus, Iron Man Three had the vice president as an antagonist, and with Nick Fury out of the picture there really aren't that many people in the government that look all that trustworthy…so yeah, I can see why Cap doesn't trust them. I get Tony acting pro-registration because of his PTSD issues but…fuck it, I just hate the whole thing from start to finish. Only good part is that we're getting a preiew of T'Challa (and please please PLEASE let them have done a good job with him).

          • trundlebear

            I just don't like it when friends fight. 🙁

            I actually have some hopes for it (mostly because Hawkeye and Falcon are actually in this one), but at the same time I'm going in expecting Hollywood to really fuck up PTSD, T'Challa (oh gosh I really, really want so much T'Challa), and anything involving Black Widow. Again.

          • adamhunter1223

            Yeah. When I say heroes vs. heroes that's basically what I mean. I really want there to be a scene with hawkeye's family where his wife gets pissed and says words to the effect of 'I just had to explain to the kids why you and the other people who saved us from the chutari (spelling?) and ultron are fighting each other now. I'm not pleased with any of you'. Or, well, I just want ANYONE to say that (preferably to tony and Cap) but I think hawkeye's wife is the most likely person they would use for that.

    • adamhunter1223

      I agree with your grandmother. I despise the civil war, and I hate that they're doing a movie on it.

    • Sarakatawen

      My 94 year old grandmother is a huge fan of Game of Thrones and has read all all the books (and is hoping she doesn't die before GRRM finishes them). She thoroughly enjoyed the latest Star Wars film and sees it as a return to the promise of the original. She also read the Lord of the Rings when it originally came out and has been reading science fiction since the 1940s. The idea that nerd culture is a thing that belongs exclusively to gentlemen in their 20s and 30s is an idea that makes her snort derisively.

  • I just looked up Gears of War to confirm that, yes, it's the game with Marcus Fenix as the main character, and the petty side of me wants to kind of snicker at Bleczinski. This bit and his "Fake Geek Girl" cry alone give me the image of him as that guy who must show the world that, yes, he has a Man Card. It's toxic masculinity and that "classic" fear of the feminine.

    • The thing about Gears of Wars is that while CliffyB was the dev for it, the first game was largely written by Susan O'Connor and the expanded universe material, all of which is quite good an helped grow the audience, was written by Karen Traviss, as was the third game, which was praise for rising above the "bro" trappings and hitting some emotional notes.

      The first game is actually quite good too, and surprisingly deals a lot with the emotions and brotherhood of the squad, but most all of that work is from Susan's O'Connor's script in the dialogue, the level design and game itself is just straight bro-shooter.

      The introduction of three female characters in the third game, including bringing in an older woman, and making sure all the women were wearing full armour as opposed to "boob plate", was the result of Traviss working on the property.

      Most all of the work that actually touched people, especially soldiers who reacted to the tone of brotherhood and positive male bonding between Marcus and Dom in the first game and the relationships and character development in the books and third game, all of that is the result of two women working on the property.

      Both of whom have plenty of nerd and video game creds.

      It's a shame that the bro stench puts people off, because the universe and characters are surprisingly deeper than you'd think at first blush.

      • Dr_NerdLove

        One of the best moments in the series – coming straight after a climactic character death:

        "Are you ok?"
        "No, I'm not. And neither are you."

        Quiet, poignant and entirely more devastating than the death that preceded it.

        • I guess John DMaggio was a real perfectionist on the third game because it was really important to him, having been given that much meat to work with, to hit the emotional cues just right. The entire cast did a fantastic job, imo.

          Fred Tatasciore does Baird and it's a shame he doesn't get enough love because he is amazing as a VA.

          The other thing about Gears in general, and specifically GoW3, is that the breakout character from the books and comics was Bernie Mataki, a 60+ year old Islander woman, and the fans loved her so much they put her in the game and as a playable character in the MP mode.

          It's always amused me that for such a supposedly "bro" game with what people assume is nothing but a "bro" fanbase, the big character that fans went wild over was an elderly lady sniper created by Karen Traviss for the books.

          People always side-eye me when I tell them the story is better than you'd think, but Susan O'Connor did a fantastic job on the script for the first game, Josh Ortega turned in a sold script for the second, and Karen Traviss hit the right notes in the third, even though they were all working in a situation where the level designs were in before the script…when you put that together with the books by Karen that built the foundations and background of the world and filled in a lot of the character work it really is a lot of solid world-building.

          • adamhunter1223

            Huh, remember playing the first gears multiplayer campaign with a friend and thinking it was okay (I'm not the biggest fan of shooters and the art style isn't up my alley) and pretty much ignoring the second and third because of the 'bro stench' as you put it (very well described by the way). I might check the sequels out after this. Here's hoping I can get my steam account to work…

      • trundlebear

        He's A dev on the game (lead designer/creative director, which has a lot of influence, but is not God when it comes to the game) — over 150 people worked on the original GOW.

        A lot of them were women.

        But they're just there for a paycheck, so they don't count (unlike everyone else at the office who also gets paid). Nevermind it's a smaller paycheck than they could get anywhere else for the same job, because it's something they're passionate about, something they love doing, in an industry they love and are a part of…

      • laserwulf

        Geez, now I feel inspired to replay the campaigns with that in mind.

        IRL I spent a couple years in Afghanistan & Iraq while on active duty, and I suppose it speaks highly of the dialog in GoW that I never took notice of it -because- it felt so natural (compared to the Hollywood Blockbuster style of series like CoD).

        • trundlebear

          I've always wondered what for-reals military folks felt about Spec Ops: The Line, because for a gamer it was such a subversive experience for me and it really did a lot of things that were effective despite often being really small, like companion dialogue changing slowly as everyone gets worn down.

          Like, it wasn't a FUN game, but it was a GOOD game, but that's coming from someone who's never done any military service and guns just aren't a thing here, so I don't know how well they did.

  • datelessman

    For the record, "Young Justice" was not canceled due to "too many girls liking it". That is an internet myth that Greg Weisman (the co-producer of the show) has debunked more than once on Twitter. It stemmed from an interview Paul Dini made about another Cartoon Network show. The real reason he gave is "lack of toy sales, which is where the money for [their] budget came from". https://twitter.com/greg_weisman/status/650880050

    Now, one could argue that the toys were overpriced and not very poseable and that the "Masters of the Universe" format for funding animated TV shows (in which they serve as infomercials for cheaply made mass produced action figures) is a mostly outdated model which is rarely successful anymore for plenty of reasons (one of which being that technology has progressed to the point that kids outgrow action figures quicker than they did in the 80's or 90's and adult collectors haven't replaced them fast enough) and that merchandise should adopt different strategies (i.e. more clothing or stationary items), but that is a different topic and I digress.

    This "fake geek girl" thing needs to die. It is a terrible meme that isn't even accurate, as woman have been involved in "geeky things" since they were founded, if not founding or co-founding them themselves. DNL included a few examples, and Star Trek is another; without Lucille Ball it may never have debuted on TV (to say nothing of all the women who starred, wrote, produced, and/or directed for it all these years). Star Wars might not have been a hit if Marcia Lucas hadn't done an editing job on the first cut of the film which has been considered "miraculous" (even if it seems that footage of lady fighter pilots were among those cuts). Honestly, I could clog this post with further examples. It's amazing that all of these "geek bros" who consider themselves apart from "the mainstream" are more than happy to enforce rigid gender sections set up for pure commercial interests. Toy companies to this day stick to them deliberately for that purpose every time someone complains to them about there being no Rey or Gamora or Black Widow toys or images on stuff. It is very deliberate and very commercial (and very outdated; the heads of these companies are probably older than the average person in Congress).

    Women have been involved in this stuff forever; it's merely modern technology which has allowed them to be more obvious about it (and enter the realms easier). My mother dated a comic book inker and got me into comics when I was a kid via her 5 subscriptions in the 80's. One of my dear platonic friends in high school was a gal I met in the "comic book club" (which was really "watch anime for an hour club"). So maybe I'm an odd duck in that the involvement of women in these things has been what I've always known so it seems natural to me. Or maybe the oddness is that, having been bullied by "mainstream people" myself, I'm not quick to turn around and become a bully myself should I enter a realm like "geekness" where I have any (presumed) authority. I never see guys tested or hated for being "new" or "fake" like women are, usually by guys with unresolved bitterness issues with women (which, sadly, include more than a few comic book/video game writers and editors). The fun of being a geek is forming common ground regardless of gender. If you're a "knowledgeable" fan, then your role isn't to act like a troll guarding a bridge, but as someone who can help welcome them into the fold. Great power, after all, comes with a great responsibility.

    Besides, even if for no other reason than pure unadulterated heterosexual self interest, why would you WANT to shame women who are into this geeky stuff in any capacity!? It serves no logical purpose other than to keep you lonely! Maybe it's a lashing out of the subconscious for the realization that for many, being alone and dateless has nothing to do with their hobbies and everything to do with them. And that can be a tough thing to see in stark black and white.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      So, your first paragraph is accurate as far as it goes. "Lack of toy sales" that were marketed exclusively to boys was the reason for the cancellation. They decided to cancel a show with a huge audience rather than try to market the merch to that audience. Its far from the only show to use that model, it just wound up with a viewer demographic different than the toy demographic.

      • datelessman

        I agree that model is outdated. It just isn't as simple as saying "Young Justice was canceled because too many girls liked it". At least that isn't what Greg Weisman claimed as the reason, and I've gone with his explanation. But you're right, the marketing campaign was aimed at boys (or rather, a model aimed at boys which worked in 1982 and is mindlessly imitated over and over and over regardless of changes in the market since) and there was no attempt to adapt that strategy while the show was on the air. There's a push to resurrect the show on Netflix currently.

        • Gentleman Johnny

          I know. I binge non-watched the first two seasons (kept it on in the background while doing other things) to give it a boost.

          • datelessman

            I don't have Netflix but I bought the entire series on DVD last year. I did my part too!

    • JaiChameleon

      "Maybe it's a lashing out of the subconscious for the realization that for many, being alone and dateless has nothing to do with their hobbies and everything to do with them."

      *ding ding ding* We have a winner!!

    • Hey. Great post. I'm an over 50 geek. I've been working in technology for over 30 years. It's always about the story.

  • This geek inquisition thing is incredibly dumb. Especially when it regards famous people and "cultural appropriation."

    To the extent that getting mad about fake nerds and nerd appropriation can even be slightly justified, it's not at the level of celebrities; theyre 95 percent image anyways.

    The thing is, most nerdy guys have at some point met a "fake" or obnoxious geek/gamer girl who's interest is incredibly shallow, but hangs out with the nerd crowd because it increases her functional hotness and gets her extra delicious, sustaining attention.

    There aren't that many of them, but by their nature, they're very obvious. Probably 5-10 complaining guys are thinking of one annoying person, who turned up to 5-10 different d&d games, having either started dating the one hot guy of the group, or friend zoned the desperate one, only to not learn any rules, play a half drow half nymph rogue, demand special offers exceptions , get mad whenever she fails, fall asleep on the couch, then when she's kicked out, complain that no one likes her because she's a girl.

    • thathat

      The thing is, most nerdy guys have at some point met a "fake" or obnoxious geek/gamer girl who's interest is incredibly shallow, but hangs out with the nerd crowd because it increases her functional hotness and gets her extra delicious, sustaining attention

      No. I really don't think "most nerdy guys" have.

      Although you sound like you're thinking of a very specific person. Also, "friendzone" isn't real.

      I dunno, someone else tag in, this is a mess, and I swear we've been down this exact road with this guy before.

    • That "example" is so specific I guess we've gotten a window into seeing the girl who broke your heart by turning you down, thus sending you off on the path of bitter misogyny and misanthropy you walk today.

      However, besides it sounding like your view of the person is coloured by your own current bitterness, the fact remains that some people of either gender can be jerks.

      And your example reminds me of just as many dudes who played D&D and other games as it does the women I've played tabletop games with or run into in nerd circles so….bzzzt….nope.

      Besides, just because the person wasn't all in, doesn't mean they didn't enjoy D&D, they wouldn't be there in the first place or care if they did well if they didn't also want to play the game.

      Considering how most women are treated in nerd circles and how you talk, I'd be on the couch pretending to be asleep rather than deal with you as well.

      • thathat

        sorry, unintentional downvote

      • thathat

        Considering how most women are treated in nerd circles and how you talk, I'd be on the couch pretending to be asleep rather than deal with you as well.

        Honestly, this. Like, I'm a massive nerd, I really am, but there have been times when I've been the only girl in a group, or when the group was male dominated and things just got waaaay too involved in some aspect of nerddom I didn't care much about or else got rude/gross/irritating, and I didn't feel like being The Uptight One and I've just tuned out until it was time to leave.

        And yeah, actually, D&D comes to mind. I love the concept of it, but I've never actually played a good game of it. The best I've got is this one White Wolf game we played, very intermittently. But anything past that…it's always been a mix of bad DMs and just…way too much math and minutia to keep me engaged. I keep trying every now and again, because it's a good way to meet fellow nerds and hang out with friends.

        And, I mean…so what if someone wants to play a half-one-cool-thing-half-another-cool-thing-cool-class. Not everyone's trying to be a munchkin, y'know? Some folks just kinda wanna Play Pretend.

        • Gentleman Johnny

          I should run an Apocalypse World game online for Nerdlove followers some day. Much simpler on the math. Everything that a player needs fits in two three-fold pamphlets.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Probably going to wait for second ed at this point but for those who want a taste: http://apocalypse-world.com/AWplaybooks1ed.pdf

          • That's amazing. Just the ToC makes that about 1000% better than typical roleplaying books.

          • This is an amazing idea.

            We should organize a bunch of roll20 RPG sessions, too!

        • Miss A

          I had a similar issue when trying out 'Mage: The Ascension' for the first time. It's absolutely fascinating, and the world it presents is really cool! But….all the lore and minutiae and 'you're an x level in y skill, you can only do z with that skill' and so on and so forth was a lot to keep track of. Still, I'd love to go back and give it another shot.

          • thathat

            The worst for me was still GURPS. Like, "Pun magic! Woo-hoo!"

            And then you try to play it.

          • Whereas I always LOVED GURPS, because it appealed to the detail-oriented process-fiend in me, and I could just make CHARACTERS. So many interesting characters. For at least a decade, a favorite hobby of mine was to turn fictional characters into GURPS characters to see how powerful they were…

            But I cannot read comic books, because I cannot deal with such visual media, and the open-endedness of something like Fate leaves me really stressed and cranky.

            But neither of us is less geeky than the other because we dislike any specific thing!

          • thathat

            Oh, making the characters was a blast. Playing on the other hand…

            (It didn't help that our GM wasn't very good and had us dungeon crawling for way too long, and then sulked and quit, so my friend took over an immediately put us all on a spaceship with aliens and ray guns despite most of us being fantasy based. In a more experienced party, that could've been fun, but this was Baby's First Roleplay for a lot of us.)

          • Gentleman Johnny

            A lot of people had a lot of trouble with Mage. The whole reason they introduced rotes later on was so people could just have a spell list. I ran a Sorcerer's Crusade (basically Renaissance Mage) game and explained it to my players as:
            OK, what are you trying to do with the spell? (Open that door)
            OK, what spheres have you got that would let you do that? (Can I use matter 2 to reshape the lock? How about Forces 3, Prime 2 to just blast it with kinetic energy?)
            Are you going to try o cover that with some improbable event or just zap the hell out of it? (coincidental vs vulgar)
            OK, now look at your foci, describe the spell, what you do, what it looks like.

            It took maybe one or two sessions for people to get the hang of it.

          • Miss A

            That is really handy to know for the next time I can play. Thanks for the explanation!

          • Gentleman Johnny

            I'm apparently the only person who ever thought Mage was "pretty simple, really". Then again, I was reading a lot of stuff like Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance and The Invisibles when it first came out. 🙂

          • My Mage campaign was definitely very "influenced" by reading The Invisibles.

            The way I handled vulgar vs coincidental magic was pretty similar to how you did.

            The thing that always seemed to confuse players was using Spirit and how Spirits would work, so I made a house rule that you could summon spirits to do certain things and that was separate from what you could do if you have Forces or Matter which were inherent powers.

            It sort of made Spirit a really powerful Sphere, but I was okay with that, because I also built in a lot of downsides to using Spirit, like getting the attention of bad spirits.

            I always get excited talking about it because I had so much fun playing the game, and going more free form was much more interesting to me than the sort of plodding feel of some games where EVERYTHING came down to dice roles.

            Playing it with Rule of Cool overriding things made it a much more interesting game, and it was great because I could shift genres when I wanted to, like letting my Akashic Brotherhood players basically play a few nights like they were in a Hong Kong wire-fu martial arts movie using Forces to kill inertia and swordfight ninjas.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            I think my favorite night was when we had a bunch of other people over so I brought them in as a one-off Order Of Reason (precursors to the Technocracy) airship crew!

          • Trakiel

            Pfft, "coincidental" magic is for cowards. I AIN'T AFRAID OF NO PARADOX.

          • I love MAGE: THE ASCENSION, but it's way too dense to play it per the rules.

            I really leaned hard on the "storyteller" aspect of it and generalized, and in the spirit of the game basically let players do things if they could come up with semi-decent reasoning for why something would world if they had Forces 2, Mind 2, Prime 1 or whatever.

            I still had them roll dice and used skills, but it was a lot of house rules and much more free form than a lot of the players were used to. Once they actually got into playing it, they loved it, and then some of them went deeper into the lore and asked to start following certain rules, but for me the prime directive was to have fun…trying to rules lawyer that game is an easy way to get a migraine.

          • Miss A

            Preaching to the choir there. I was so busy trying to figure everything out and referencing my character sheet that I had eyestrain and a headache from it. Still, I love the setting and the story, so it'll be fun to try it again.

          • Trakiel

            Another lover of Mage: The Ascension here. It's one of those games I played and would love to run, but unfortunately there are a couple of players (great players, I might add, whom I love playing Pathfinder and Vampire with) in my group who are just a bit too rules-lawyer-y for me to want to run Mage for them.

        • nonA

          Heh. Sometimes I think that the complexity and difficulties to entry for new players are considered features for certain beloved geek properties. You'd be surprised how often clearly subpar options are defended, not with "we didn't quite know how this would shake out during early development and testing", but with "we include deliberately crappy options so that new players can feel good as they get better and learn to avoid them". Years of accumulated backstory and option bloat are often seen as features by long term fans, even while they make entry look even more intimidating to newcomers.

          Don't know how much of the issue is that the most complex options are also some of the oldest and most established (E.G: Dungeons&Dragons being much better known than FATE), and how much is that catering to diehards who like all the added complexity turns out to be a superior marketing move.

          • dreampodd

            Heck as a (obviously fake) geek guy I find this barrier to entry thing highly discouraging from getting into new areas of fandom and I don't even get the level of bullshit about my lack of knowledge as the ladies do. I'm a busy guy with school, work, and a kid and even trying to get back into stuff I used to follow closely and lost touch with (15 years of X-Men, what the hell happened?) is tough because I don't have the time and money to invest myself deeply into the property to get caught up.

            I just want to try something new out and play (for example) Warmachine because all of my Warhammer buddies stopped playing. I don't have time or the attention to read each of the splatbooks so I know every unit and ability in the game. After getting building a warband and painting it up, the reception I got for not knowing every other factions special rules was appalling. I can't imagine how much worse it would be for a woman when they get all the gendered insults and sexual come-ons on top of that.

    • Caliseivy

      I'm calling bullshit on your argument. It's gatekeeping. Who gets to decide if someone's (usually a woman's) interest in something is "shallow" or deep enough? Who gets to decide whether or not she can "hang out in the nerd crowd" and for what her reasons are? Plenty of people, guys and girls, have what by gatekeepers would be considered shallow interests in subjects for varied reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with getting attention; that doesn't mean they are "fake" or they don't belong in the groups. They could be there trying to learn more.

      I try not to tell people their personal experiences didn't happen, but your last two paragraphs sound like something out of a bad movie about the Nice Guy (TM) who usually finishes last, and not a real occurrence.

      • One_True_Guest

        And plenty of people are annoying and don't work well in groups and try to take over the game and make it how they want it. I mean how many stories from how many women do we have to read about an amazing D & D group gone bad by the introduction of some misogynistic dude trying to take over, tell her what to do, change the rules etc. and the woman feeling compelled to leave because of it?

        But it's always the same, one woman does it and she represents women in general, one guy goes it and he's just an individual asshole. La plus ca change . . . https://xkcd.com/385/

        • trundlebear

          I'm shaking my head because my long-running D&D campaign (10+ years) has a guy who plays a drow, occasionally gets bored by the roleplaying and falls asleep on the couch, or intentionally splits the party so that some of us have to go play Halo so we don't overhear what's going on.

          Obviously, all men who play D&D are horrible assholes and they're only doing it for attention.

          (What kills me is that my D&D group is all ex-military so these guys are like, so secure in their definition of masculinity/identities in general they don't give a shit who hears us chatting about our recent D&D adventures at the pub. They're ripped, they work security jobs, they're ENORMOUS NERDS, they never batted a lash at my joining the game and have always treated me like they would anyone else, were EXCITED because I still had 2nd ed books as that's what we're playing, and I love them.)

      • Gentleman Johnny

        What drives me nuts about it is the shameless double standard. I will say something about how I love Captain America as a character and get asked about such and such comic run. My answer is always "I'm a fake geek guy, I only know about it if its in the movies", which, while not entirely true, is close enough. The response I get is never that I should exit the conversation immediately but rather an explanation of cool arc and where to find it if I want to read it. As a guy who actively claims to know nothing, I've never been made to feel unwelcome.

        • Caliseivy

          I very rarely wear my gear or get into conversations with others about fandoms (admittedly part of that is because I'm usually at work where it's business-casual attire) because I'm sure I'll fail every gatekeeper test on the fandoms I engage in because my interests would read as "shallow" and I have no time for interrogations and additional judgment.
          My sister, on the other hand, is always wearing her interests, and I've never asked, but I suspect she has many stories about being interrogated and accused of fake geek-girling.

          • trundlebear

            I have sort of an ultimate nerd card I can play as a game dev, but ask me about any game out in the last 3 years that I haven't worked on (and half the ones I have) and I can't tell you a damned thing beyond what I've heard OTHER people saying. I mean, besides Fallout 4 and Stardew Valley, the newest game I had played for a long time was Pokemon Shuffle.

            Then again, I have people roll right over me when they get talking about AC mechanics and I say "Yeah, I know, I worked on that game" and they keep talking and then eventually turn and say "Have you even PLAYED an AC game?". No, asshole, I just worked with Jade fucking Raymond for five years.

          • Caliseivy

            I don't get that at all. I feel like if you hear someone say the words "I worked on that game" you'd stop everything in awe (especially if it's a game you really like) and want to pick the person's brain. Could just be me.

          • Yesssssss. I cannot imagine ever being in that situation and not having that statement trigger some kind of Pavlovian drool reflex. I was once at a party, and from a solid twenty feet away heard someone say, "Yeah, I was actually on the team that built Zork," and I literally dropped my conversational companion MID-SENTENCE to turn and worship.

          • trundlebear

            Seriously! I accidentally ran into the developer for Lords of Waterdeep (the board game) at GenCon a couple of years ago and it was so much a moment of "AUGH I LOVE YOUR GAME YOU DO AMAZING THINGS AUGH".

            Actually, GDC is generally like that too. Mutual admiration society with a lot of squeeing from people who would never admit to it otherwise. Our industry is so weird, it's not competitive, it's mostly people going OH MY GOSH YOU MADE THAT GAME I LOVE THAT GAME because we… play games, and like games, and ooh what's that studio doing that looks cool! It's so weird, too! Talking to the CEO of Neverwinter about how much I'm enjoying player-driven content and 4th edition integration and winding up exchanging business cards and having him start gushing about Splinter Cell when he sees who I work for. SO WEIRD.

          • trundlebear

            See, that's a reaction that's just dandy with me, because there's nothing I like better than hearing peoples' stories about games or things they liked (or hated!) because I feel like in a very tiny way I contributed to this person's happiness. Also, it's impossible to NOT be a total nerd about games when you work on them (trust me, people try, we just keep dragging them back down) so it's like a golden retriever family reunion of HI HI HI GAMES OH YES GAMES FUN YES!

        • mediumballpoint

          That's very similar to what I've seen. With men, I often seen them insist that a woman needs to be as interested as they are in Thing X to pass muster. This completely excludes the possibility that a woman might not be very interested Thing X but digs Thing Y and that's where most of her primary geeking out happens.

          In short, with men it's often, "You don't like the same thing I like in exactly the same way I like it so you're a fraud!" With women, it's almost always, "Oh, you're not all that interested in Thing X? Well, here's why I like it, and here's an easy entry point if you decide you want to check it out," without any conclusion about legitimacy or subsequent exclusion.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            And its. . .one way, I guess. I mean, I'm also a Fake Burlesque Guy, a Fake Dance Guy and a Fake Horseback Riding Guy (ie I engage in but have a very shallow knowledge of) and none of those more feminine-coded communities ever give me shit for it.

          • eselle28

            Yeah, while the phenomenon of people showing up who are new or only marginally interested seems like it happens with most hobbies, the reaction to those people seems to vary and geeky interests seem to be among the most negative. A lot of the other hobbies I know about are either pretty tolerant of those people, sometimes welcoming them as the most realistic source of new blood, or are very upfront about boundaries and specify if only people with some experience are welcomed (often including directions to an event more appropriate for new people at the same time).

          • Gentleman Johnny

            I'm trying to think what an "advanced" geek, or any sort of fandom like football or burlesque, space would be and coming up blank.

          • eselle28

            In geeky spaces, I've mostly seen it in MMO guilds, where there's often a sharp and understandable division among "we're going for world firsts"/"we're looking for skilled players who can raid on Tuesdays and Thursdays"/"we just want some people to talk to and maybe group up with while we level." In non-geek spaces, I mostly see it in physical activities, though musical groups sometimes do the same thing.

            I guess the football equivalent would be people who've been devoted fans of the team for their entire lives versus new converts and people who only pay attention when the team is having a good year, but I think those spaces are a lot more flexible than geeky ones, to be honest. Football fans will at least appreciate talents like throwing a good Super Bowl party (there was so much angst this year when no one in my social circle ended up having one) or being a fun person to tailgate with.

          • trundlebear

            Gosh yes. Top 1% of raiders vs everyone else. The math, the number crunching, the poring through logs, the fraps replays of encounters, the post-mortems, the encounter preps, I just… I can't do it anymore. But I loved it while I was doing it. Hours and hours of extra work revolving around a video game played for fun, but that WAS our fun.

            It's like people who play DOTA, and people who UNDERSTAND DOTA.

            I love watching The International and anything Sunsfan/Synderen are commentating on and I like Purge's insights, but I also refuse to touch a game that requires 200+ hours of play before you can even begin to say you're getting it.

          • Lise

            I immediately thought of the contradance/folk dance community (which is sort of a blend of nerdy/hippy). If you're an inexperienced dancer, and express interest in going to a dance above your skill level, chances are someone is going to very nicely ask you to come to the general-public or beginner's level dances first.

            (If they don't, then it can be very frustrating for the experienced dancers, as everything in contra has to be done in a set, and one person messing it up can ruin the experience for others).

            Needless to say, this does not affect nerdery like discussing Captain America.

        • KMR_

          This double-standard has always baffled me because I've seen geek guys get really excited about sharing their geeky interests with other guys–including those who only have a casual or passing interest in the topic–and I couldn't understand why they wouldn't want to extend that same warm and positive attitude toward women. Especially since a number of geek men are often saying they wish more women were into their hobbies. But there seems to be this deeply-ingrained belief that women are not and would never be interested in these things, so when a woman does show knowledge or interest, the reaction is either surprise or disbelief.

          I receive the surprise reaction a lot, and in one instance, the double-standard was really obvious. When I was in college, I attended a video gaming event and one of the games played there was Soul Calibur 2, which I was a big fan of at the time. I saw the guys offering the controller to the other guys who were sitting and watching, so I patiently awaited my turn to play a match. But in the 20 minutes I sat there, no one offered me a controller, and during this time I saw them offering it to guys who had already gotten a turn and to guys who had just come by less than five minutes ago. No one asked these guys if they'd ever played the game before asking if they wanted to try it (and it turned out that some of them hadn't played it before). But when I finally spoke up and asked if I could have a turn to play, the immediate response was, "Oh, you play this game?"

          • badwolf359

            It really is perplexing. These guys grew up not getting laid, and being ridiculed for their interests – but suddenly, when a woman shows an interest in what they like, now they're going to ridicule her and say she doesn't "really" like it! It's why I can't pity these guys – they probably wouldn't know what to do with a vagina if it was presented to them on a silver platter. Way to ensure you WON'T ever get any!

          • choys

            It can be worse when you can actually beat them at their game of choice.

            Not gonna lie, watching two of my best friends (both really pretty girls with mad skills) consistently destroy fragile guys' egos in Marvel V Capcom and Soul Calibur, never got old. Mostly because the guys would constantly be trying to prove that they HAD to be better than a girl, no matter how many times they lost. And if they couldn't beat my friends, they had to bring ALL THEIR FRIENDS to try, because no matter how many times they lost, it HAD to be luck or a fluke. So usually, my friends would end up with this recycling line of guys refusing to believe they were being publicly spanked by a girl. 30+ win streaks and subsequent petulance were a wonder to behold. LOL

            You can tell the difference between guys playing other guys who are good because they will acknowledge each other and their skills, even if they don't know each other. Good luck getting anything other than guys elbowing each other and snickering behind your back if you're a girl. It's also pretty obvious when you roll in with a whole bunch of folks and it's only the girls that get the weird reactions.

            To be fair, our home arcade was filled with really cool folks who welcomed /everyone/ as long as you were there to have fun. It was arcades in the wild where the bullshittery usually happened.

          • eselle28

            Sigh. Yeah. I've met that sort. They want someone who will watch them play the game, but not want the controller themselves. Who'll level up beside them, but neither be up to raiding nor ask for the chance to. Who'll watch the movie with them and laugh when they recite a quote from it as a substitute for a joke, but not actually have more of it memorized than they do.

            One of the few positive things about that behavior is that it's one of nature's ways of saying "do not touch." (One of the many negatives is that, unlike brightly colored frogs and insects, it's a lot less pretty to look at from a safe distance.)

    • One_True_Guest

      The thing is most nerdy girls have at some point met men who thought that they could become a defacto leader in a nerd group because nerds are so welcoming and so would take over events, made it all about them, steam rolled anyone who dared disagree with their shallow opinion on a TV show or whatever. I have met men who take advantage of nerd gatherings to hit on socially awkward shy girls because they know these women are scared to/socially conditioned not to say no. I have met men who don't actually ever support others in their geek hobbies but show up to pontificate how amazing their geekitude is.

      And yet we do not hear of Fake Geek Boys. Huh. I wonder oh wonder why that is . . .

      • Also, I have DEFINITELY known awkward guys who would join geek crowds because they were open and welcoming of socially awkward types, even though they weren't really in to geeky things. They sat around quietly and gradually started to like geek stuff more.

    • Miss A

      Uhhh, no. I don't think 'most nerds' have met a woman like that. This sounds more like someone you trumped up to make a good story out of.

      Here's something else to think about: Some tabletop games take a fair amount to get into, and for some folks the info, lore, and gameplay can drain them. A few months ago, I played a pick-up game of 'Mage: The Ascension' with a group of friends (mixed men and women), and by the end of the session I literally had a headache from trying to keep up and figure things out. Did I get mad when I failed? Sure. But you know what? So did everyone else in the game (we had REALLY crap luck in that game), no one asked for exceptions or any of the other nonsense you threw out there.

      So, yeah. You just sound like every other gatekeeping individual out there. Especially with the 'functional hotness' and 'extra delicious, sustaining attention' BS.

    • Trakiel

      "The thing is, most nerdy guys have at some point met a "fake" or obnoxious geek/gamer girl who's interest is incredibly shallow, but hangs out with the nerd crowd because it increases her functional hotness and gets her extra delicious, sustaining attention."

      I'm 37, have been playing D&D since I was 14, and have never encountered such a person. All of the girls/women who have been a part of games I've been involved in were there for the same reason as everyone else: They wanted to play the game. The closest I've seen to anything resembling a "fake geek girl" are the occasional person who would try the game or attend sessions because their SO was a regular. Sometimes they'd discover they really liked the game and would join as a regular player, other times they'd discover they didn't care for it and would quit. But that's just people being people and liking what they like (and not liking what they don't like); nothing "fake geek girl" about that.

    • Robjection

      If a girl was going to fake interest in something in an attempt to increase her functional hotness and get her some extra delicious, sustaining attention, why would she choose the stuff that attracts the genuine interest of people who act with such hostility towards perceived outsiders?

      • eselle28

        Exactly. Especially when some of these things have other fairly high barriers to entry. It's a hell of a lot easier to go to a sports bar during the big game and cheer when everyone else is than it is to learn both the rules of a very complicated game and the nuances and etiquette of roleplaying.

    • nonA

      Question. How old are you? Back in the 80s and early 90s it wasn't that uncommon to find someone queen beeing as The One Girl Who Gets This Stuff, but that relied on your average geekette staying invisible. Between the internet making it easier for them to find each other (and thus emboldening them to come out about it) and the way nerd culture is everywhere nowadays, said queen bees have a much harder time of things.

      And even then, queen bee does not necessarily equal fake. Might as well be clearer with what you want to express.

      • One_True_Guest

        But wouldn't the queen bee who is the one girl who gets this stuff by definition NOT be a fake geek girl? Like she's the one who "gets it", who really cares, not like "other girls". I mean no one is denying there aren't Real Geek Assholes out there and I'd say such a person sounds like she'd fit the bill. But Fake Geek Girl? Sounds like the polar opposite to me . . .

      • As someone who grew up during that time period:

        There were FAR more King Bees than there were ever any Queen Bees.

        The thing about a woman coming into nerd space and the idea of Queen Bee is that a woman coming in would instantly be put on a pedestal by the dudes in the group. A girl who didn't want that attention or chaffed at having a bunch of dudes hanging on them was considered a "bitch", a girl who burped and laugh and sort of went along with it without overshadowing any of the dudes and definitely without showing she was as or more into something than the dude was a "cool girl", and the "Queen Bee" tended to just be a girl who straddled the lines without pushing back too hard against the nerds fawning, but who also didn't just mindlessly defer to the guys in the group.

        The mythology of some woman coming into a nerd group and controlling them with her magical boobies and knowledge of Dragonlance is both hilarious and just that; mythology.

        It also ignores the countless dudes who would easily fit the role of "Queen Bee" save for their gender, and often there was always one dude who knew girls, played a sport, was more popular, whose parents were rich, who had a car, could get drugs….whatever, who had some control over the group.

        That's also just the dynamics of being a teenager, btw, not specific to nerds at all, so all this "Queen Bee" nonsense can buzz off*

        *<insert pun dog jpeg>

        • One_True_Guest

          Also if we pretend that such a person did exist, it was thanks mostly to the good graces of the dudes who allowed her to be there on her throne. Who WANTED her there. The guys trying to impress her or letting her get away with stuff or whatever. Like this make believe Fake Geek Girl who is a 6 and gets to be a 10 with geeks only gets that privilege if the guys treat her like a 10 and fawn all over her.

          So I mean . . . careful where you place the blame dudes.

          (it should be noted I do not believe in the existence of the Fake Geek Girl, and while I can believe in a Queen Bee type, I can also believe in a King Bee, and many other bees being equally obnoxious. Mostly I believe in humans being human and imperfect, and some being more annoying than others)

          • Exactly. If you're the kind of person who believes that fake geek girls exist, the way to get them to go away isn't to shun every woman who approaches your geeky hobby without the proper amount of cred, it's to treat them EXACTLY the same way you'd treat a guy. If they're really in it for the extra attention, you could, you know, just stop giving them extra attention.

        • Light37

          Yeah, your options as a woman in these settings were either playing Wendy to their Lost Boys or you were a bitch. Not much middle ground.

          • This is a great if depressing summation.

            "Wendy to their Lost Boys"

            This is so painfully true I wish I could up vote your post more.

      • rebootI730

        I grew up in that time and you were more likely to bump into the Alpha Nerd, King of the Lesser Nerds, than a woman like you describe.

        Did you grow up in that era? Was your experience different?

    • datelessman

      I haven't ever encountered a woman like that in my "geek circles" or know anyone who has. The women who have been involved were, "shockingly", interested in the geek thing themselves. And even the ones who were, say, the current girlfriends of some of my friends whose interest was less than their beau usually increased that interest with more time hanging around, or revealed more interest once it became obvious that we weren't shaming or mocking anyone.

      I used to run live action tabletop RPG sessions in high school (with games I made myself) and I certainly wouldn't have minded having more girls involved. I was a lonely dude and that stuff wasn't as mainstream as it is now (the late 90's). And quite a few of my friends had far less interest in comics than I did, and I never considered them less worthy or geeky. I'd have been thrilled to have more girls involved in my hobby back then.

      People who turn out to be poor players for an RPG troupe are not of one gender or another. I've known quite a few "bad players" both online and in tabletop who were men. I had to kick quite a few out for disruptions or just for being jerks who would almost literally challenge someone to a fight over a few dice rolls that went poorly.

      There are no "fake geeks". There are only geeks of different levels and investment who may increase or decrease it depending on access and how they're treated. It says a lot when it seems mainstream sports are more welcoming to women than a lot of "hardcore geeks" who consider themselves superior.

    • eselle28

      That doesn't sound like a fake geek at all. To me, you've described 1) an actual geek who enjoys and responds to fantasy, but who is new to and quite bad at roleplaying and 2) a frustrated girlfriend who's not a geek at all. Unless your hobby group is completely closed to newcomers, you will always occasionally have to deal with people who are new and incompetent, with people who show up to humor their significant others, and with people who may be there more to make friends than because they're passionate about the hobby. It happens with men as well as women, and it's by no means restricted to geeky things. You see the same phenomenon with fairweather sports fans and people who volunteer mostly because all their friends are volunteering and book club members who are more interested in the wine than the reading selection.

      Oddly, I think there'd be less of this in tabletop gaming and other geeky hobbies if people backed way off from the fake geek girl trope, looked at the way members talked about women who are openly non-geeks, and considered whether there are any geek social fallacies dragging down their groups. If geeky men promote "true" geeky women as the only decent ones, then of course there will be pressure for girlfriends of geeks to take up their hobbies. If tabletop gaming geeks promote their way of being a geek as the one true path and show little respect for other geeky interests, then of course women whose main interest is reading fantasy novels or cosplaying will consider branching out into the one true path of geekdom. And if your gaming sessions mean your players are going to be spending both Friday and Saturday of every week pursuing their hobby, of course even a very uninterested significant other may decide to tag along rather than spending their weekends alone. If you back off from these constant attempts to categorize women into "true geeks," fake geek girls, and non-geeky women who are by definition terrible, there's a lot more space for people who aren't really interested in your hobby to back off from it.

      • Caliseivy

        The uninterested girlfriend reminds me of all those magazines and advice columns for women that advise to get interested in your boyfriend's hobbies because they find it sexy or something.

        • dreampodd

          Ugghh. I mean, yes it is important to treat your significant others hobbies with respect and some interest but pretending to be really into something that you dislike is both boring and soul-killing. Either be ok with not sharing absolutely everything with your partner and still being supportive or find a new partner who does share your interests.

          I know a ton about various fiber-arts because my ex-wife was really into that. So I learned enough that she could share her accomplishments with me and I could support and encourage it. She likewise wasn't into competitive gaming and really didn't care when Team X won tournament Y with an amazing X move. But she learned enough that I could talk about what I found interesting and respected my interest in it.

    • TinyTeacup

      There are so many things wrong with everything you wrote. So many things.

      I mean, even if everything in your example actually described a real person, you still haven't actually shown her to be a Fake Geek Girl. Maybe she's really, really into LOTR. She befriends members of the gaming group due to mutual interest in LOTR, and they invite her along to a game. She figures hey, elves and dwarves and magic and storytelling, never tried it but it could be fun. Except the rules are a dense pain and there are all these unwritten house rules* and lore and backstory and craziness. So she makes a character, she plays, but it's not really her thing. Still, her friends are there and she likes spending time with them, so she tags along. But it's really frustrating, so sometimes she just calls it quits and chills on the couch for a bit before she gets a headache.

      She's still a geek! She's just not into tabletop gaming! The same goes for the girl who likes gaming but thinks Star Wars is overhyped, the girl who likes Babylon 5 more than Star Trek, the girl who watched all the old Doctor Who and has even listened to the audio tracks for all of the lost episodes but thinks LOTR is dry and boring, or any other combination.

      *I've never played with a group that didn't have them, and while I understand why some people like them, it just annoys the hell out of me that the rules I'm reading might not be the rules they play by. And I *do* enjoy tabletop gaming.

      • Lise

        This. So much this. We have a tendency to assume that one person's nerdery is another's, and that there are these geek cultural shibboleths. But there… just aren't. I don't care for Dr. Who, have never seen Firefly, and superheroes bore me, but by golly I am a geek. Just ask me about Elder Scrolls lore, or the works of H.P. Lovecraft, or Dragaera…

      • IME "House rules" are for people who don't understand why the actual rules are the way they are. Sure, every once in a while there's a good house rule that simplifies something without completely breaking something else, but those are few and far between.

    • "hangs out with the nerd crowd because it increases her functional hotness and gets her extra delicious, sustaining attention."
      You really think your attention is something special, don't you? Why would someone who doesn't really enjoy what you like and has nothing at all in common with you go through the trouble of pretending they are like you just so you pay attention to them? If someone is going to make that kind of effort for a bit of love there are many places where they could get the same return for much less work, without ever having to go near a rules book.
      It seems so silly and self centered that someone would actually believe non-geeky girls would fake it so hard just to get some attention from geeks (weren't you like pariahs or something btw?). Being a woman in an all dude space is not easy at all. I've been there and let me tell you, I would have absolutely avoided that shit if it hadn't been the only place available to develop a specific interest of mine. Why would someone go through that just to get attention from a bunch of assholes who question her all the time?

      • TL,DR: Attention is super cheap, why would someone learn how to play D&D for it?

      • Starleitmotif

        Not just silly and self-centered, also totally illogical.

        Women don't like us, we're not good with women–and also, women deliberately choose to spend time with us because they want to bask in our attention, which they are also contemptuous of.

        Women aren't *really* geeks, they're just faking it for easy attention–and also, they spend lots of time and money on these geeky things they don't actually like in order to impress us, even though they don't actually value either the things we enjoy or us as people.

      • rebootI730

        Seriously. Some people act like the attention of nerd men is such a hot commodity that women would waste their time faking interest in nerd activities/interests just to acquire it, while simultaneously claiming that being a nerd makes women avoid you.

        Cognitive meet dissonance.

    • Having been the girl who has been the sole female in an RPG group a lot it's been my experience that having to defend my rights to be there becomes one of the more annoying aspects a lot of the time, the fact that there are some people who assume I can't play because I'm a girl is an issue that always makes me think twice about going to a new gaming group. Congratulations on being the kind of asshole to perpetuate that stereotype with anecdotal evidence that "most nerdy guys have met a 'fake' geek / gamer girl" – or an "obnoxious" one – I've met several guys with only a shallow interest in a certain aspect of geek culture…but I don't go around calling them fake geek guys. I don't say the guy who only ever plays COD and calls me a fake gamer girl because I'm not as good as him a fake gamer because he only plays one game…I just know that I'm not as good as him because I play a large number of games rather than obsessing over one. You know what that makes us? Just a different kind of geek / gamer.

      Today though I'd like to take the most exception to your comment about a girl hoping to gain attention and be considered hot by hanging out with geeks. Someone who "hangs out with the nerd crowd because it increases her functional hotness and gets her extra delicious, sustaining attention."

      I can't tell you how grateful I am when I discover some guy saying that I'm LARPfit. How if he was outside of the sphere of LARP he wouldn't want me but within that setting I'm considered not only a catch but somehow, because all girls are some form of fake geek girl only really their to "increase her functional hotness", I'm going to be an easy lay. How I will be blown away by his true geekdom to such an extent I'll want to do him "right there in the mud like the pig" I am…(and yes that is an actual quote overheard at a LARP event).

      I've heard similar things in most "geekdoms" and here you are saying it in a way that again perpetuates that stereotype. Oh I know you go on to say that "there aren't many of them" and that "they're very obvious" but it's been my experience that someone who believes there are any girls who are just hanging around because it makes them look hotter and helps them gain attention looks at all girls at a con with that colouring their perception. I go to a con because I like being around people who share similar interests, I feel happiest when helping to run the con because it gives me structure that helps me navigate in a social setting that I would normally feel awkward around, I cosplay because I love being able to dress up and play another form of make believe and because I am more confident when in costume than I would be in just one of my many geek t-shirts. I'm not getting dressed up because I want to be groped by some guy who assumes that being in cosplay is another sign that I'm going to be easy and only there because I'll be considered "hot" compared with how I'm seen in wider society.

      It's also my opinion that someone who thinks that way about girls at cons/d&d games/LARP will be more likely consider any girl who is conventionally attractive to be a "fake geek girl" because why would anyone who's that hot like anything nerdy, she's obviously only their for the attention and to be drooled over by men who will become her willing subjects/servants/slaves, she couldn't possibly have been watching anime since she was 4 years old and own a collection of comic books or have working games consoles going back to her original Atari 520ST set up in her spare room that has become a gaming room.

    • Okay. Fake isn't the right word. The right word is "terrible annoying person." It's a person I personally know, and I've seen shades of her behavior in other nerdy women. She's not someone I have a crush on, she's just part of the local nerd community, and…I feel guilty for the condition she's in.

      She's an attention addict who can't handle being alone, is essentially a 16-year-old in a 20something's body, and I wind up having to interact with her too often due to mutual friends and social happenstance.

      And she's a monster the nerds created. Imagine someone having their own real-life Tumblr echo-chamber. Imagine if no matter what they did or how terrible it was, they could always find some desperate guy to give them positive feedback. It's our fault, and when I'm not annoyed by her, I feel sorry for her.

      This isn't just d&d. That was just an example.

      When someone uses sexuality as a crutch to attract men to them, then keeps them at arm's length and complains about people always hitting on them, yeah, that's crummy behavior. When someone keeps another person on the back-burner, just in case, that's crummy behavior. When someone stopped learning social skills at 15, and has just let boobs do the heavy lifting ever since, that's crummy behavior. Ive seen her do this to my friends, to me a little bit, and I've heard her former close friends vent about the obnoxious things they've been subjected to.

      women with degrees of Borderline or Histrionic personality disorders find nerd communities to be very, very rich feeding grounds, because we won't call them on their shit, and when we do, we're called misogynistic.

      What I'm trying to convey is why so many nerds have stupid reactions to hot girls who play up being into nerdy stuff. They've met someone like whom I've just described, because such people churn through friends quickly. Just like how 5 women who complain about how all men are pigs are probably unknowingly talking about the same guy.

      So pretending that every example of people being annoyed at a nerdy woman is just resentful misogyny is lazy, disingenuous, and does a disservice to nerdy women.

      Beign able to write off everyone who doesn't like you as racist/misogynist/ciswhitemale is TERRIBLE for people's personal growth.

      • Your concern trolling can't disguise that you're a trash fire of a human being.

        "When someone stopped learning social skills at 15"

        I don't think you have a lot of room to talk about anyone lacking social skills or graces.

        "So pretending that every example of people being annoyed at a nerdy woman is just resentful misogyny is lazy, disingenuous, and does a disservice to nerdy women. "

        Yeah, but when the specific example is coming from someone whose previous interactions has shown them to be a resentful misogynist and whose current interaction continues to prove that point…I think we're safe in writing this off as such, and you trying to inflate your one example, that you feel SO guilty about….OMG, I bet it tears you up to have to spend time around a woman who expresses her sexuality, that must be so hard for you to have to look at her boobs, my heart bleeds…then, yeah, it is lazy and disingenuous because it's just your hang-ups, not anyone else's, not even this girl's.

        "And she's a monster the nerds created"

        Way to completely erase a woman's agency. She can't exist as a sexual being without male nerds? She can't even "fail" without nerds being the cause? Ease your guilt, dude, you're not that important.

      • One_True_Guest

        But why is it when men meet a MAN who is arrogant, narcissistic, always needs to feed off the energy of others etc etc they don't then have a same negative reaction as they did towards women? The issue isn't that there aren't nerdy women who are annoying, the issue is that you are saying that because of a few bad eggs that's why men have this attitude towards women and yet for some reason don't have the same issues towards men when they meet a few bad male eggs.

        It is completely a gender issue because you aren't making the same assumptions about men after meeting a dick dude. And if you tell me you've never met an asshole male nerd in your life then I'll know you are making all this shit up.

        • trundlebear

          "women with Histrionic personality disorders"

          DAMN those wandering uteruses, taking over brains!

          I'm laughing because otherwise I'll explode in a fiery ball of rage at the garbage being spewed here.

      • Trakiel

        So let me get this straight: The men in your little nerd group act stupidly to get the attention/favor of this woman, but she's the one who's the problem?

        Hell, you even admit it's your guys' own fault. So when you direct your anger at her, despite admitting you guys are the ones acting badly, how can that be interpreted as anything but misogyny?

      • Okay, I just read this in detail, and I cannot figure WTF you are talking about.

        You can dislike anyone that you want to, and I won't say boo to you. I dislike some people that may actually be on the short list for sainthood, because despite them being objectively much better people than me, they annoy me. And I'm allowed to dislike them. You're allowed to dislike this woman. Fine. I have NO PROBLEM with you disliking this woman.

        What makes you a resentful misogynist is that you take her behavior and use it as some kind of evidence that the fake geek girl is enough of a problem in nerddom that nerds are justifiable in throwing the accusation at every woman who comes along.

        Honestly, although the scale and severity is obviously different, it reminds me of nothing as much as voter ID laws. There is some evidence that a handful of voter fraud incidents happen every year. They found 5 ballots that were cast by deceased persons in South Carolina in 2010, for instance. So their response is to institute voter ID laws, which will have the effect of preventing thousands of people from voting. In order to prevent a handful of fake voters from messing things up, they'll keep thousands of real voters from having their voices heard.

        And isn't it coincidental that the people they're excluding are the people they don't really want messing up their elections anyway? In the voter ID case, that's POC, the poor, and people in urban areas. In geekdom, it's women.

        You're claiming people are justified in trying to fix an INCREDIBLY small problem that yes, may exist, but on nothing like an epidemic level, by discriminating against a massive swath of the people who do deserve membership in your "club" by any standard you care to claim except gonads.

      • thathat

        What I'm trying to convey is why so many nerds have stupid reactions to hot girls who play up being into nerdy stuff.

        Y'know, I mean, the whole comment is gross, but this bit still seems to be operating from a sort of unacknowledged default to nerds being guys. Because it's not a lot of women you see having this reaction to other women being nerds (unless they're the Not Like Other Girls type, which is its own toxic internalized misogyny soup). It's specifically guys.

        Just like how 5 women who complain about how all men are pigs are probably unknowingly talking about the same guy.

        AahahaAHAHAhahAHAHAHAHaaHAHAHAHAHAaAHAHAH!

        Oh. Oh that's funny.

        No, no we're not. I mean, yeah, sometimes when we're talking specifics, we'll realize we're talking about the same guy and everyone unfortunately knows that person. But we're speaking from years of experiencing micro- and macro-aggressions. From multiple men. For each woman talking about her experience. It's not like some isolated incident.

        • Caliseivy

          If it was all the same guy* (or few) someone would have written up a list already.

          *OMG why is the Flash harassing all these women?

    • adamhunter1223

      Increasing their functional hotness. Wow. You've got to be fucking kidding me.

  • Every subculture will get diluted at the whims of marketeers, gender does not figure into the equation: http://meaningness.com/metablog/geeks-mops-sociop
    This happens to everything, geek culture is not an exception, Compare it to the swansong of LGBT bars in certain places: you're free to calculate whether a lower entry barrier is good or bad depending on the power dynamics involved, it's not going to change the fact that the same process will occur again and again when something is accepted in the mainstream.

    Betting that winning half a decade the 'new' nerds will be complaining about the staleness of empathy games and how the focus on emotions of the individual disengages completely from systematic issues (they will be dismissed as tryhards by the large audience that finds these games appealing, Adolph Reed is already for 2rad4u Berniebros).

    • *namedrops Adolph Reed*

      What… Does he have to do with this. Or "BernieBros"

    • thathat

      Compare it to the swansong of LGBT bars in certain places

      Hm.

      Honestly, what it makes me think of is how when I was a kid, if you found a fellow nerd, you sort of…had to be friends. There was usually only a small group of people who liked Spider-Man or fantasy books or whatever. So you all just assumed, "well, we have this one thing in common, I guess that makes us friends."

      Except sometimes those people sucked. Sometimes they didn't suck, but y'all just…really weren't cut out for being friends.

      The "lower bar of entry" means that it's easier to find people you want to be friends with, rather than figuring you're stuck together by virtue of "liking the same thing." (Or also, extra-isolated because the other people who Liked The Thing excluded you from the group.)

      Yeah, if empathy games don't evolve, then in a few years, they'll be stale too. It's sort of like how GRRL Power was a hallmark of a lot of media in the 90's, but today it looks really tepid and dated, and if you try to make a new series with that same concept, it won't do as well. Media and storytelling evolve.

      • The "lower bar of entry" means that it's easier to find people you want to be friends with, rather than figuring you're stuck together by virtue of "liking the same thing." (Or also, extra-isolated because the other people who Liked The Thing excluded you from the group.)

        Which is exactly why some people dislike the lower bar of entry, I suspect.

        Let's say you're already on the inside. Other people on the inside have to be your friend, because there are so few people on the inside. So you don't really need to do anything to deserve that friendship. If you will always be invited to game nights despite standing in the bad (MOVE DANGIT), or playing racist D&D characters (It's not ME, it's the CHARACTER), or drinking everyone else's beer and never bringing snacks, why do you need to do better?

        The lower bar of entry says: people get to be selective again. They can have game nights populated with people who play real characters instead of thinly veiled ways to say what they really think, and who bring the tasty cream cheese wraps, and who volunteer to host and have a house that doesn't smell weird.

        And the people who don't believe that they have value as friends, rightly or wrongly, desperately DON'T want people to have that choice.

  • Trakiel

    Can someone explain the message I've been getting when I've sometimes responded, "Your comment must be approved by the site admins before it will appear publicly." Is the site being glitchy? Because this just started happening recently and it's not consistent; sometimes my comment will post immediately, sometimes it won't. Is there an admin I could/should contact about this?

    • Robjection

      It's a thing that happens due to the spam filter set up on here. I don't know exactly what trips it, although I suspect including more than one link in your comment is one of the things that trips it.

      • Gentleman Johnny

        It seems semi-random and generally someone will check the queue in fairly short order.

      • Trakiel

        That makes sense; now that I think about it it seems to happen if I post several comments in quick succession. So WAI I guess, lol.

        Also, I see people post in italics. How do I do that?

        • Robjection

          [em]text[/em] except replace square brackets with angled brackets. The comments are all done in standard HTML.

          • Trakiel

            Thanks Robjection!

            With this new power I now hold, I'm just that much closer to enacting my plan of complete and total galactic domination! Mwa hahahaha!

        • nonA

          Basic HTML for italics, as well as bold and underline, generally works on most forums. You can also use HTML for blockquotes and hyperlinks here.

          Since it's tricky to show how without having the system simply render the text as italic or whatnot, googling "HTML italic" should be faster.

  • Robjection

    "Show me someone who doesn’t play Angry Birds or Candy Crush and I’ll show you someone without thumbs."

    *checks hands quickly*

    I appear to have thumbs despite not playing Angry Birds or Candy Crush.

    • enail0_o

      He didn't say that it would be the same someone! 😛 Maybe he's got a friend without thumbs on speed dial for this situation!

      • Robjection

        That would be most crafty of the Doc.
        http://37.media.tumblr.com/cde42c0bba57aa184b0de7

      • I kind of love this idea and may have to start doing it myself. "Show me someone who doesn't like chocolate and I'll show you a cuddly baby gorilla." "Show me someone who liked Age of Ultron and I'll show you a deformed potato!"

        I just need to pre-stock my phone with pictures.

  • Brett

    At its core, cultural appropriation is treating cultures like a pick-and-mix grab bag of ideas for the dominant majority culture (almost always white) to dip into and adopt as their own.

    That's how cultural exchange works – you use bits and pieces from other groups of people and fuse it with other stuff. Sichuan cuisine, for example, exists because somebody brought hot peppers from the Americas over to China, where they were promptly assimilated and woven into the cuisine. Or think of fusion cuisine in general, like the food trucks that combine Korean and Mexican food around here.

    It only feels like appropriation to me if you're actually claiming to be the original source of something. But I read a lot of broad accusations of it.

    • The problem with cultural appropriation is that when you are the dominant culture, your view on other cultures tends to overwhelm their own perspectives on it. A really good example of it that I read once talked about how as a white woman, I can wear a sari to a company party and be gorgeous and exotic, but if a South Asian woman were to wear one to the same event, people would be uncomfortable and think she wasn't assimilating.

      When it is easier for the dominant culture to treat your culture like a fun accessory than it is for the originating culture to display it with pride and respect, that's a problem.

      • thathat

        Exactly– the dominant culture tends to view appropriation as an equal exchange because they think, "Well, we can take _____ because we gave you _______." And that tends to ignore that it's less that they gave another culture ______ so much as forced that culture to adopt their clothing/language/holidays to be treated as an equal.

        See: "but why can't I, a Christian, have a Seder if some Jewish people celebrate Christmas?"

        • Gentleman Johnny

          But we can have head dresses with feathers. We gave you all those bibles. . .and blankets. . .lots and lots of blankets!

          • trundlebear

            And delicious smallpox!

        • wjmorris3

          Although this Catholic actually had a Seder when he was in school (as it was presented as a good way to explain the Last Supper.)

          • This is… kind of exactly what thatthat is talking about, though. Because looking at a Seder as a good way to explain the Last Supper (as opposed to understanding the tradition behind the Seder within Judaism), is basically taking a major part of their faith and shoehorning it in as a way to understand your faith better.

            And it's narrow and facile, too, because the modern Seder has almost nothing in common with anything that would have happened in Jerusalem in the first century CE. Basically, it's grabbing around 2000 years of Jewish culture and development and meaning and handwaving them away for some playacting that doesn't actually improve your understanding of either their faith or your own.

            ETA: You know what, I shouldn't have said that about "almost nothing in common." It was an overstatement for effect, and dismissive of the emphasis on continuity and tradition which is inherent in a ceremony which has survived for thousands of years among a people in exile. It is better to note that there are significant differences, and also that there is no consensus that the Last Supper even was a Passover Seder in the first place.

          • wjmorris3

            You were right about nothing in common, actually.

          • And it's also kind of insulting Jews because the whole "Last Supper was a Passover Seder" exists to supposedly strengthen the argument that Jesus overthrew the Old Testament and that this occurring on the annual celebration of the Exodus is yet another sign that the Christians are the One True Religion.

            Most denominations actually outright reject the idea that The Last Super and Seder are connected, and there's nothing in any account to suggest they're meant to be the same.

            I think a few scholars point to when Jesus drinks the wine (after the bread at the last supper) as symbolic of the old religion being overthrown in favor of a new covenant, but it's a very minority view.

            Since the early Christians were probably preaching to Jews, the argument most likely came about as a means of convincing Jews to abandon their religion for the new faith.

            Which, yes, makes the whole thing even extra dubious. Then again, the Church was always really good at lifting stuff from the pagans to build their faith (see the number of pagan festivals that have been Christianized), so I'm not surprised they're still trying to lift Passover Seder.

            I honestly thought that whole connection was completely debunked, but interesting to see it's still going.

          • Yeah, there's some specific stuff in the Bible about the fact that they wanted to arrest him BEFORE Passover, enough that for a while (not sure where it stands now) the take on the text was that Jesus was meant to be the Passover sacrifice himself, in place of the lamb. The idea that the Last Supper was a Passover celebration is a much later addition to the understanding of the scripture and is, as you said, largely discredited.

      • Wondering_

        Yeah, the Native American cultural blog I follow frequently says "We're a culture, not a costume," and I think that sums up a lot of the issues, especially the headdress and Halloween ones.

        • thathat

          Have they had a discussion about the new JK Rowling stuff yet? Because I've only seen the periphery of what's going on there, and I'm still like…. 0.0

          (I kinda wish JKR just…wouldn't try for America. At all.)

          • eselle28

            Sigh. That really disappointed me. I get that she's not an author who's in love with researching every detail, but if that's the case, maybe it would have been better for her to stick to writing about topics she has more of an intuitive feel for. She's one of the celebrities I've really liked in the past, so it's unfortunate she decided to do this.

          • thathat

            Y'know, the thing is…like, I'm not even surprised. Because it's not even the minority/ethnic groups she doesn't get. It's the nuance of American culture itself. And I knew it would be this way from the second I saw her explaining "no-maj" as ~exactly the sort of slang you'd expect from an American–blunt and to the point!~ Because I'm seeing here like…hm. No. Especially not in the 1920's. Like, just…linguistically speaking, no.

            And then when she's like, "Only one Magic school in the Americas," it's like…um, ooookay. You do understand these continents are huge, right? And home to so very many different cultures and languages and religions and all? Like, even just from one side of the US to the other, it's a drastically different culture, again, especially in the 1920's.

            So then when she says things like, "racism in the US Wizarding World was never a problem" I'm just steeling myself for the next awful thing. Her using sacred Native American traditions in the same way she uses Latin doesn't even surprise me.

            Beyond being thoughtless and appropriative, it's just…mundane, is what it is. It makes her world less. Duller.

          • eselle28

            That was exactly my reaction. I'd actually been steeling myself to make one of those tough choices between avoiding something because it's sort of gross and enjoying it for what it is because there's some good content there…and ended up finding the choice easy, because none of this sounds really compelling.

            As for "no-maj," I've been seeing people trying to defend it recently, but I think the fact that it was so easily targeted for scorn says a lot about whether it was a well-chosen different term. I did not get to the bit about there being only one magic school in the Amercias…but…yeah. There's no historically black magic school? There's not one in California that tried to set itself up as being the Hogwarts of the West? Not one in Mexico, because those students just attend the school in the Northeastern US? You can say the wizarding world is different and their educational system didn't track with "no-maj" educational development, but I think Rowling got away with that more when writing about the UK because she instinctively knew things that should be avoided or that would sound off to people.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Well, its not like she doesn't lean on easy stereotypes in the British books. I think they're just less blindingly obvious (but still noticeable) over here. They get more obvious in the movies. Purebloods vs Muggle born = noble vs working class, which seems obvious but notice that Hermione is the political activist of the entire series. The redhead (ie Irish) family is poor and has a bunch of kids. Convincing me Hagrid isn't Scottish will be an up hill battle. All the girls of the French school are pretty and cultured. All the boys of the Germanic school are stoic and paramilitary. Seriously, did anyone else get a Hitler Youth vibe off of Durmstrang's entrance in uniform? The Dursleys are Wicked Step Family #3, ordered from Central Casting with free two day shipping. The entire wizarding world is basically a Dickens novel that (except for blood purity) gets called out on it by an important character exactly once. Its been a little while so I'm a bit fuzzy on whether the totally not-Jewish goblins were in the right in wanting to hold on to Gordic's sword or not but yeah. . .that whole thing.

          • Wondering_

            This is why I've never really been a huge Harry Potter fan. It all seems so…trite?

          • thathat

            It…kinda is?

            I really think a large part of the appeal is that the world itself creates a really fascinating sandbox, and fandom leapt to the occasion. In fact, Harry Potter fandom really kind of…defined how modern fandom works, how fans interact with creators, the legitimacy of fanfic as a means of community, etc. (Like, fic was part of underground-ish communities, zines and all that, but so many of the Old Names frowned heavily on fanfic, and there could occasionally be legal issues. Heck, IIRC, folks got in trouble for some Star Wars fic/art that involved Luke and Han being gay. Aaaaaaaaand now pretty much 90% of tumblr's fandom is "I want the good guys to bone and be happy and the bad guys to bone and be angry.)

            But that's a big part of why JKR's new additions feel so extra disappointing. Because fandom's had over a decade to play around and expand the Wizarding World from Harry's very narrow window of it, and in a lot of cases–especially when it's people writing about what the Wizarding World would be like in their own countries/cultures–the fandom version is just…richer.

          • enail0_o

            Hagrid speaks with a West Country accent in the film, and I believe the way she writes him in the book supports that.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Touche

          • thathat

            All the girls of the French school are pretty and cultured. All the boys of the Germanic school are stoic and paramilitary.

            I want to say that was largely an invention of the movies? Like, I don't remember anything in GoF that implied either school wasn't co-ed. And honestly, it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't be. Where do French wizards go to learn?

            The whole elegance/military thing could also just be a result of who Harry's focusing on at each school–a part-Veela, and a teenage pro-athlete.

            Oh, yeah, frick, I forgot just how bad the totally-not-Jewish goblins got. Like, I'm sure she didn't do that intentionally, but…wow, JKR. Wow.

          • Wondering_

            Like, I don't remember anything in GoF that implied either school wasn't co-ed.

            Hmm, that was my impression of each school, that they weren't co-ed, when I read the books before the movie came out. But I've only read the book once and have seen the movie many times, so my memory may be faulty.

          • I am pretty sure there are active references from boys from Beaubatons — doesn't one of the Patil girls end up dancing with one at the Yule ball since Ron and Harry are awful dates?

          • Starleitmotif

            Yeah, that was Parvati. It was changed to a Durmstrang boy in the movies, but in the books he was from Beauxbatons. Both schools are co-ed in the books.

          • Thanks! I couldn't remember which offhand, and my books are in my (sleeping) kid's room, and I didn't feel like tracking it down in my audiobook. 😉

            I have read those books far too many times, and probably listened to Jim Dale's excellent narration at least 20-30 times per book. 😉

          • Starleitmotif

            The Harry Potter series are some of the only audiobooks I've really enjoyed–I tend to lose focus when listening to someone I can't actually see. I didn't care for the overly-breathy way he had Hermione saying "Harreeeee" all the time, but other than that, I thought they were great–and his Gilderoy Lockhart was better than either the movie or the book version, in my opinion. He got the smug condescension so very right.

          • thathat

            Jim Dale and James Marsters effectively ruined audiobooks for me by setting the bar too dang high.

          • There are other good ones!

            I like Grover Gardner reading Bujold's Vorkosigan books, and Amanda Ronconi doing Molly Harper. Steven Briggs on the Discworld books he does is also really good, and I liked the Wil Wheaton version of Scalzi's Lock-In.

            (I am an audiobook junkie, and have 400 titles in my Audible library, plus around another 50 from other sources.)

          • Caliseivy

            I have no experience with audiobooks, save for listening to a recording of Ray Bradbury reading Fahrenheit 451 (uggghhh).
            I get that a poor reading can affect interest in listening to an audiobook, does that mean that a great reading could too?

            On occasion I think about picking up books recommended to me that I wouldn't normally be interested in, but lately it's much harder to convince myself to keep reading so I'm wondering if listening to the book instead could make a difference.

          • The context in which I love audiobooks is the "doing other things" categories. I listen to them while cleaning, driving, hiking, cooking, bathing — all kinds of things that I can't effectively read through.

          • trundlebear

            I love listening to audiobooks of books I have already read, or vice versa — I find that I pick up very different things in the different formats, so it's almost like having a whole new book. I like them when I'm doing either really rote stuff like frame-by-frame scrubbing through cutscenes or folding laundry.

            I totally read in the tub, though. My kindle works through a ziploc bag just fine. <3

          • jcorozza

            So, there's an audiobook recording of Return of the Native that is read by Alan Rickman. I have zero interest in that book, but man I want that recording!

          • Starleitmotif

            Alan Rickman could read the phone book and I would probably listen to it.

          • jcorozza

            He could be reading in Esperanto and I would not care. Now I have all the sadfeels thinking about that, though.

          • trundlebear

            I loved that I got both WW and Amber Benson narrations for Lock-In when I bought it, as listening to them both REALLY changed a lot of things for me in the books.

            The person who does Nalini Singh's Guild-Hunter audiobooks is phenomenal, and the Psy-Changeling narrator is pretty good, too.

            The one who does Cherise Sinclair's crack-on-a-stick Shadowlands can go die in a fire, though. He made the heroine sound like a whimpering 5-year-old. So not enjoyable.

          • Starleitmotif

            Oh, interesting idea to have two different narrators. Did you find it changed the story for you?

            Nalini Singh is one of those authors I keep hearing good things about and keep meaning to read but never seem to remember when I'm at the bookstore. But I have to go get Seanan McGuire's latest, so maybe I'll pick up one of hers, too, while I'm there. (And speaking of Seanan, she has been posting irritable toads on her Twitter today and it is adorable.)

            Cherise Sinclair is totally my guilty pleasure author. I have her books on my Kobo so nobody else knows I'm reading them.

          • Lock-In is an AMAZING book to have two narrators for, because it is a first-person narrative, and the narrator is a person who exists primarily inside a robotic host, and whose gender is never specified in the story. So the choice of narrator dramatically transforms the story.

            When I read it, I read the narrator as female without even noticing, but Wil Wheaton's narration transformed him to male. People who preordered the audiobook got both versions for the cost of one. I was dumb and waited, so thus far I only have the WW one, but I'll probably buy the AB version soon.

          • trundlebear

            It's absolutely worth it, I pre-ordered it for the dual narrations (I like WW and enjoyed his narration for Redshirts) but I am now on the lookout for more AB because I really enjoyed her version of it.

            I used to think I preferred authors to narrate their own audiobooks (Anthony Bourdain, George Carlin, Ellen DeGeneris come to mind as fantastic) but I get it's not everyone's jam, and yeah, I listened to Ray Bradbury do Fahrenheit 451 and… no.

          • trundlebear

            Yup, it totally changed the story for me. Because I listened to Amber Benson first I actually missed the major story "huh" moment until I started listening to WW's version, then went "WAIT A SECOND".

            I'm not super quick on the uptake. But I think it emphasized it waaaaay better than just being told what the hook for that book was.

            I dooooo love Seanan and must go see her toads, because I love her pictures of her ridiculous cats. I have one tweet saved that is "Alice has a knife."

            Nalini Singh is someone I can recommend wholeheartedly and thoroughly, and there aren't many authors I know of that have such broad appeal. Everyone has their favourites, but the books have phenomenal worldbuilding and excellent far-reaching plots as well as adorable characters.

            I swear, Cherise Sinclair is my "Why am I reading this, why can't I stop reading this" author. When the books took a sharp left into human trafficking I was just going WHAT… and yet avidly waiting for the next book. Also I thought her last one with Mistress Anne was top notch, I was worried she'd chicken out and not write a woman Domme, so she really pleasantly surprised me. Still cracktastic WTFery, but I'm expecting it at this point.

          • Starleitmotif

            Alice and the machete-of-demanding-treats! I love that story. Maine Coons are my favorite cats and if I were to intentionally go and acquire another kitty (rather than having them just show up the way my cats usually do), I would get one–but I swear sometimes they are kind of like having a fuzzy toddler.

          • adamhunter1223

            Sorry, slightly off topic, but you done mentioned Discworld and I had to bring up the animated version of Wyrd Sisters. I saw that after I read the book but that movie permanently influenced how I hear/see the witches in my head when I read. The actress who voiced Magrat in particular.

          • Thanos6

            Oooh, Jim Dale. Back when the books were first coming out, I read the first three books, enjoyed them, and got them on cassette. Yes, CASSETTE. 🙂

            During a long roadtrip to Florida with my parents, I convinced them to give SORCERER'S (*cough* Philosopher's *cough*) STONE a chance. If they weren't interested after the first tape, we'd just go back to our usual scanning the local radio stations.

            Several hours later, we get to the point where Harry discovers whoever is after the Stone, and as soon as the chapter ends, my dad stops the tape player. "It's about time we stop for supper," he says, "And if we keep listening I'm just going to sit in the car and keep listening to this instead of eating."

          • Wondering_

            Yep, you're right. I found my copy of the book and looked. Beauxbatons is described as having boys and girls arrive at Hogwarts, so the movie has clearly altered my memory.

          • H. Savinien

            The Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students were rather better developed and less-stereotypically monolithic in the books. Don't take the movie representations as JKR's fault on that count.

          • Also, worth noting that plenty of Irish people were quite upset when she said that the British and Irish Ministry of Magic were the same organisation. Like, I get that she's a unionist, but it's fairly gross to erase the Irish independence movement and the inequalities that led to it. Just not cool.

          • H. Savinien

            Yeah, she can stop now. She is making a lot of people very justifiably upset and does not seem to get that there was actual/attempted genocide involved.

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Its especially sad because New World Magischola, the LARP that branched off of the Czech LARP that itself started out as an HP LARP with the serial numbers filed off (still following?) did a tremendous job of creating a wizarding America that deals with many different American traditions with incredible deftness and respect and even creates some rather unflattering depictions of what colonial wizards did when spreading west.

          • Wondering_

            She has, yeah. My prior post with links is in moderation or got eaten, but her reviews of the trailer and the text itself were not favorable. The blog is Native Appropriations, and they're the most recent two posts if you're interested.

            I haven't read the new material, but I did see the trailer, and I thought, "Oh, dear. JKR's pulling a Stephanie Meyers."

          • Starleitmotif

            I love the Harry Potter universe SO MUCH, but Rowling is pretty tone-deaf to America in general and also tends to paint both other cultures and individual characters with a bit of a broad brush. She's also either oblivious to or touchy about the places her world gets it wrong–having characters she clearly loves booing 11-year-old children for being sorted into the "bad" house (where just about everybody is described as unattractive, of course), as one of many examples. Doesn't mean I'm not super grateful for the world she created, just means I find myself sighing and rolling my eyes sometimes and occasionally wishing she'd just…stop with certain things.

        • YoshiLand

          The worst are dicks who think the telling someone not to weak black face or dress like a Native American is stopping free speech. Like what?

          • Caliseivy

            I've been so done with those people…
            Every year we have a swell of "don't do this" articles and arguments explaining why you shouldn't wear those costumes for Halloween

    • Caliseivy

      "using someone else’s cultural symbols to satisfy a personal need for self-expression is an exercise in privilege." (Copied from http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cultural-exch… )

      You're leaving out the important parts that make it appropriation and not exchange: "treating cultures like a pick-and-mix grab bag of ideas for the dominant majority culture". Exchange signifies it's a voluntary, two-way street of mutual respect. Food has always been a murky part of that argument though.

      • trundlebear

        Food is INTERESTING, too. I live in what's touted as "the most multicultural city in the world" (I'm not sure it's so, but it's pretty great) and everything from grocery stores to major food brands reflects this — there's no "ethnic" aisle, sriracha and butter chicken sauce are on the same shelf as ketchup and BBQ sauce, major festivals and holidays across the world are reflected in what's available (unlike a town I'm in about an hour north, where "Chinese New Year" specials were… bags of rice, sigh). You can walk a block and have food choices from five different countries, and you couldn't eat at every place in the city if you tried. One of our major brands of frozen/prepared food is even doing interesting things like "Butter Chicken Lasagna"/"Greek Lasagna"/"Tex-Mex Lasagna" and they're all friggin delicious. Not to mention you can go to food courts and still get real Ramen, real Pho, real Roti, fresh-steamed Bao, like… it's wonderful.

        And that's just the food! The major clothing stores (and smaller trendy ones!) have clothes that echo a lot of fashions elsewhere. The city has a huge East Indian population, and clothing in places like Old Navy has a lot of detailing and cuts and styles that are very much East Indian. They're not in the "costume" section, they're not in their own section, it's just part of the clothing available in springwear or summerwear or such.

        I think that this is a really good example of cultural integration vs cherry-picking specific elements and featuring them as "exotic" elements instead of just… clothes people are comfortable with and wear. Hijab is really big here, so there's a booming industry of scarves to be worn however people want — is it appropriation? Or is it a thing that's become a norm here, to carry scarves that aren't specifically marked or marketed in any way, so some people wear them on their heads, and some people wear them around their necks.

        I'm sure people are making missteps and screwing up here and there, but it's so fascinating for me to see the city change in such an organic way, versus saying "ha ha look at the things these people wear isn't it DIFFERENT?".

        • Starleitmotif

          Well, now I'm hungry.

          • trundlebear

            I made curried mango chicken with steamed veg and rice today, I will share!

            Also, my Cuddl Duds arrived and I REALLY LIKE THEM, oh my gosh so soft. I got two shirts, I'm going to go back for pants, but I am super thrilled so thank you again for the recommendation! They're going to be great as under-layers for the next couple of months.

          • OtherRoooToo

            I was going to trade a Cuddl Duds rec for a plate of mango chicken and veg.

            Now I don't have anything to trade. Sadface.

            *brightens* I can bring wine! Or cider! Or the non-alcoholic beverage of your choice!

          • trundlebear

            FRIENDS SHARE and I always make enough for lots of leftovers/sharing! I like feeding people almost as much as I like eating! Also I am amazingly lazy so my slow-cooker and rice cooker are magical pieces of kitchenware that produce delicious food out of nowhere with less than 1min of prep and no touching icky thawed chicken.

            I accept offerings of Diet Coke at all times.

          • OtherRoooToo

            Yay!

            I just bought some today!

          • Starleitmotif

            I'm so glad you like them! 🙂

            And wow, that sounds amazing. I love curry and I love mango, but I don't think I've ever had them together. And it even sounds healthy! I mean, steamed vegetables!

            I…may have been running late today and had coffee and a donut for lunch. Sometimes I fail at adulting.

        • adamhunter1223

          Stop…just stop…I'm sitting here in minnesota (where mayonaise is a spice and black pepper is too hot for some people, and no I'm not joking). I used to be able to get in a car, drive ~20 minutes to Maple Grove (nice area) and sit down to chicken korma made by an Indian chef in a kitchen with REAL tandoors and while I was walking away stuffed like Lazy Boy recliner I could BUY the stuff frozen to have the next day!…Then it closed. Because Minnesota. Now the closest good curry place is almost an hour away and in a really bad neighborhood.

          …I'm so damn jealous.

          • trundlebear

            You really need to move! I mean, I went to the grocery store the other day and was feeling lazy about dinner, so I grabbed a ready-made take-out box of samosas and a Portuguese-style roast chicken. I don't care about crossing the streams, it's good food. I made a salad at home and it was so good.

            Samosas are love. In triangle form.

          • adamhunter1223

            I've actually put serious thought into it. I can't now because of my financial situation but, at the risk of sounding stereotypical, if Trump gets into office I don't want to live here.

          • trundlebear

            I wonder if that site "Marry A Canadian" is still live, it showed up when Bush won the first time a ways back. Makes me laugh.

            I'd run too. I sort of feel like Trump is payback for all the Rob Ford jokes we endured, but honestly, I think it's more like "no seriously, assholes like this are everywhere, STOP ELECTING THEM PEOPLE".

          • adamhunter1223

            This is the first election where I am legitimately frightened of the potential outcome. Not on a 'I don't agree with someone's politics' level, but real fear. That man in any kind of position of authority scares me in a way I can't adequately describe.

          • trundlebear

            I think if the house was able to block so much of what Obama wanted, it'll be another 4 years of naming post offices and not much else, although I don't think Trump will win but just split the party, which is an auto-fail in a 2-party system.

            I mean he could declare war on everyone and tank foreign policy for the next few decades, but the most powerful person in the world actually doesn't have all that much unilateral power. Also see how much Trudeau is cleaning up Harper's messes in the first 6 months of taking office, people seem pretty forgiving when you have a massive asshole (or robot) in office for a while.

            Apparently Trudeau was asked, while in NYC, to run for the Republican party. He laughed and said he had a really good job, but people were very serious about it.

          • thathat

            I was really hoping we'd get Sanders (I mean, I still kind of am, but, well…y'know), and then we could have Sanders and Trudeau working kinda together, like, the young, hip dude, and the old Doc Brown-lookin' dude, advancing social justice and ushering in a bright new future for both countries.

            …it's a nice dream.

            I'm glad Canada has Trudeau. He seems like a genuinely good leader.

          • trundlebear

            I'm really happy with him, and I might be slightly biased because he's already come to Ubisoft to check out the new games and VR machines and acknowledge our contribution to Canadian GDP — er, culture.

            And well, his answers to things are so good. "Why is your cabinet 50% women?" "Because it's 2015."

          • Starleitmotif

            I actually like Minnesota, like my house, and like my job (and also…can't really afford to move), but I took a vacation a couple of years ago to the Maritime Provinces and very nearly did not come home. Near the ocean but with all four seasons, including glorious fall foliage. Celtic music and culture, including a world-famous fiddle school that served one of the best meals I've had in my life, fresh-caught that morning from the sea. The heavenly scent of balsam. Cadbury. The roads in Cape Breton were atrocious, but other than that, it was like someone said, "What kind of things do you like? OK, we'll put them all here."

            Apparently there's a website inviting people to move to Cape Breton if Trump wins, and…I'm not sure I can say I wouldn't consider it.

          • trundlebear

            Mmm, the maritimes are gorgeous. PEI is absolutely wonderful, too, although it always feels like they run about 10 years behind the rest of the country. I have family out that way and loooove visiting, hah.

            I have never been to Minnesota, but I hope to change that with NerdCon Stories this year!

          • Starleitmotif

            PEI is possibly one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. We were there right at the end of the season, so some things were closed, but we had Green Gables (which can apparently get super crowded during tourist season) almost to ourselves. Anne of Green Gables was the first book I literally read to pieces, so it was fulfilling a childhood dream to actually go there and see the red roads and the inspiration for the Lake of Shining Waters.

            I hadn't heard of NerdCon Stories, but it looks intriguing.

          • trundlebear

            A friend of mine volunteered at it last year and had an amazing time, she said it was lovely and intimate, full of really good and nice people, amazing talks, and they unnerved the Night Vale people (which has to be pretty difficult to do).

            I'm going with her this year, as much as I love GenCon and the writer panels there, it is HUGE and SO MUCH. She said this felt more like a relaxing vacation, and cons usually do not rate that for her.

          • Starleitmotif

            I've always kind of wanted to go to a con, but being an introvert, I'm pretty sure I'd find it fun–and simultaneously exhausting and overwhelming. So "relaxing vacation" as a descriptor is frankly fairly surprising to me.

          • trundlebear

            She and I are both introverts as well (I need a LOT of decompression time both during and after a con), but volunteering is an amazing way to do it — you have set hours, people are approaching YOU for stuff like registration or other things you have answers to and authority on, so it takes out a ton of social pressure on making small talk or reasons to talk to strangers. I volunteer for stuff whenever possible in the city (Pride is the big one for me) because of exactly that. It takes alllll the anxiety out of interactions with people.

            Plus when your shift is done you can either go to panels or such, or go back to your room and read, and nobody's gonna say boo.

            We're renting a house for GenCon this year that's on a farm in a gorgeous area, and she and I have both been tempted to say "Screw board games, we're bringing a stack of books and sitting out by the horses for the week instead".

            I think GenCon is the biggest con I do and it IS overwhelming (most people spend the first day kind of just in shock) and I go into it knowing I will not be getting up super early for before-the-doors-open lines, I will not be staying up well past midnight playing games in the lobby/another room/etc, and everyone else knows this too so there's no pressure. There are still PLENTY of hours in the day for us all to hang out and have fun, or meet up every so often and gush about what we saw.

            I also book 3-4 days off work after getting back, and I lock myself in my apartment and refuse to speak for those 4 days, because I used up all my words.

          • adamhunter1223

            I'm still living at home because of college costs, and I just switched my major (I was going for what I thought would get me a decent shot at good money, but I was stressing myself sick multiple times/semester) so now things are even more in flux for me. If this wasn't a factor and I was reasonably certain I could land a job with a liveable wage I would be out of here so fast I'd leave a Loony Toons person shaped dust cloud in my wake if that maniac got into office.

          • thathat

            *sigh* We have so much good food around here, but what we don't have is a good Indian restaurant. I've been looking forward to Holi Festival (the only time I can get samosas, dangit!) all year…only to realize this year it's the day before Easter, which is huge family time, and I can't ditch family to cram my face full of delicious chickpea things and breathe in lungfuls of color-dust.

            But I mean, at least we have crawfish to balm that sorrow. I don't know how you folks in Minnesota do it. Y'all have to have, like…some kind of comfort food, right? I mean, garlic and onions at least make an appearance, don't they?

          • trundlebear

            I'm soooo grumpy with where I'm living right now and cannot WAIT to get back in the city, but twice-a-week doc visits downtown mean I treat myself to lunch there so I can have like, real food, not burgers n fries or steak n potatoes.

            Do crawfish taste… fishy? Like, they're freshwater, but so are trout and I don't like seafood or most fish (I'm down with really good battered cod and halibut now and then, and tuna once in a while, to the disfavour of my cats), but I've never had a chance to try them.

          • thathat

            Crawfish taste…like crawfish. I wouldn't say "fishy" so much, not like salmon or something. I mean, I suppose they're kind of more like lobster or crab, but I don't really have either of those as much. But we do a massive boil, y'know, with onions and garlic and specific spices in the boil with the crawfish. And then if you're like me, part of the joy of eating boiled crawfish is the dipping sauce (and part of the joy is peeling them. It's fun, if a bit painful if you have any cuts).

            I'll say this–do not try them outside of Louisiana. Maybe, maaaaaybe some of the neighboring states, but only near the border. I've never heard of anyone having a good experience with them. I mean, you can probably get them peeled and frozen, even up north, but while that's fine for an etouffee, it's not really how I'd introduce someone to crawfish.

            Sorry, grumpy as a I am about missing Holi, now I'm getting myself all stoked for the boil…

          • adamhunter1223

            We do. There's the holdovers from our scandinavian roots (Potato sausage, sounds odd, tastes like pure happiness) and there's fried fish for those who actually…like…to eat that.. You can also get really good wild berries and such in season (you have not lived until you've had home made wild blueberry syrup) but the main thing at least for me would be chicken wild rice soup. It's one of those things that you really have to get the real thing to understand, but once you have it you will never be able to have the canned/mass produced stuff again.My main gripe, really, is that america doesn't really have cuisine in and of itself unless you count burgers (which I kinda don't). We just have bits of various other cuisines that are often so horribly dumbed down and/or low quality that they can barely be called by the same name as the original (I'm looking at YOU Pizza Ranch). I've always been curious about trying new food, but it's so damn hard to find authentic stuff here that I'm practically ripping my hair out.

          • Starleitmotif

            My mom makes the best wild rice soup in the world. If someone asked me what I'd want for my last meal, it would be that. Wild rice and walleye are probably what I'd think of as the quintessential "Minnesota" foods.

            And apples–we have really good apples. The delicious Honeycrisp variety is one of many developed at the U of M. There's nothing quite like fresh cider from an orchard, or warm cinnamon apple crisp made with Fireside and Haralson apples you picked yourself.

          • adamhunter1223

            Fuck yeah honeycrisp. We have a honeycrisp tree in our yard, and a snowsweet (those things, by the way, are amazing. They grow in groups of four and insects absolutely will not touch them)….and we're pretty sure the late freeze in spring killed them both.

          • trundlebear

            Mmm, honeycrisps. We have a small local fair in October and they always have the first honeycrisps of the season, I always buy a basket. So, so delicious.

            A friend of mine in Philly talks about cider donuts, I have no idea what they are but apparently I am missing out.

          • Starleitmotif

            Cider donuts are made with (ideally fresh-pressed) apple cider–they don't taste super strongly of apples, but both the flavor and aroma are definitely there, and the acidity from the apples makes them soft and tender and gives them just a little bit of a sharpness to counteract the sweetness. They're best eaten when hot enough to slightly burn your fingers, but are still pretty good when cold.

          • thathat

            i'm crying i want one

          • trundlebear

            Oh my gosh I want I want

          • jcorozza

            We have those at a lot of orchards/farms in the fall, too. They are amazing.

          • enail0_o

            I went to a restaurant where everything was based on Canadian food, but not like "we're pretty much the same as the States, burger and fries and maybe poutine" Canadian, based on the foods native to the area, inspired by aboriginal cuisine and the food of early immigrant settlers. It was pretty cool!

            Also, wild blueberry syrup, holy shit that stuff is delicious!

          • adamhunter1223

            Also worthy of note: Blackberry, chokecherry, and mulberry.

          • Starleitmotif

            We have a mulberry tree in our backyard. When the berries are in season, I'm usually coming back inside with purple fingers. So sweet and yummy.

          • Trakiel

            Now the closest good curry place is almost an hour away and in a really bad neighborhood.

            Woodbury?

          • adamhunter1223

            Down between Minneapolis and Richfield. I couldn't tell you the address since I've only been able to go three times so far and my dad was the one who did the navigating and he never actually gave it to me.

          • Trakiel

            I got nothing; Google didn't list any Indian restaurants in that general area.

          • adamhunter1223

            It's called Ghandi Mahal, just looked up the website and its listed as being in minneapolis. So I guess its close enough to count as solely in the city and not straddling the line between there and Richfield. Obligatory website link:http://gandhimahal.com/

    • choys

      Oh, wow, you really have no idea about the discussions around food and cultural appropriation, do you?

      Just off the top of my head some discussions I've had with friends, family, and community organizers both in LA and SF:
      1. Growing up ethnic, with ethnic food, being made fun of said food/smell/taste, and NOW it's popular/hip/new hotness being discovered by the dominant culture, so now that dominant culture has accepted it, it's no longer "stinky/weird". Then, usually, having your vast and rich food culture distilled down to and defined by 2-3 dishes.

      or 1.a. Dominant culture decides one aspect of your food = EVIL WRONG and demands you change. This is really murky and complicated, see: shark fins and meats that aren't beef, chicken, pork, or lamb.

      2. Ethnic restaurants that were established by ______ for ______ being "discovered" and dominant culture coming in and pushing out the original customers. Or, obsessing over a few ingredients and buying them up so the native folk can't afford or have access to it. See: quinoa

      3. "Fusion" food. LOL DON'T GET ME STARTED. OK I guess I lied, in a nutshell, for a lot of people I know, they give massive side-eye to fusion because a lot of it feels like either, "let's take one or two things that's best known about this culture's food and exploit the crap out of it without really understanding what it's about" or "let's make this ethnic thing a little less ethnic, call it fusion, and see, I made it better!"

      It is funny that you mention Korean/Mexican food trucks. I used to work with an organization that represented low-wage restaurant workers in LA's Koreatown. A lot of people don't know, but many of the cooks and cook helpers in the back of Korean restaurants are Latino, and a lot of the Korean and Latino workers used to joke around about creating Korean-Latino recipes because there was so much food exchange going on within these communities and that was an awesome thing.

      But even with that, there's a lot of issues. Before the food truck craze began, there were always food trucks, usually owned/operated in this semi-legal gray area by immigrants regularly harassed by police. The the food truck craze hit, and suddenly everyone and their mother wants to run a food truck, because low-overhead + delicious food at prime locations can = OODLES OF CASH. But, in the legitimization of the food truck/street vendor, a lot of the original people who were running those trucks/stands got pushed out because they couldn't get permits or licenses as easily as the new folks joining the food truck bandwagon.

      tl;dr – food as cultural appropriation is a thing and murky af.

      • adamhunter1223

        I'm a food enthusiast (which is readily noticeable upon meeting me…or rather my waistline…*cough*) and I've always been leery about fusion food. I love the idea of meeting up with someone and talking about food, trading recipes/techniques, and ultimately coming away from it hungry and with an idea of something else to spend my money on when I go to the grocery store, but just slapping two things together from seperate culinary traditions always seemed disrespectful to both. At least to me. Granted, there's some of it that I do generally enjoy, like tex-mex…but I still feel a bit guilty every time I eat it.

        On the subject of food trucks, holy fuck am I glad that they've popped up in Minnesota. We had laws that banned them for a long time and they finally got either repealed or loosened. There's a taco truck that I've heard good things about that makes the rounds not far from my house and if I'm hoping to visit it soon. It's also a bucket list item of mine to go on an eating tour of the U.S. and eventually the world, stops include: California food trucks, Parisian bistros, REAL Ramen in Japan, Chicken Korma (and any other curry and lentil soup) that I can find in India, pasta of every sort in Italy, and finally to my ancestral home in Norway for Fårikål with a quick hop to wherever I can get good potato sausage.

        • trundlebear

          Canadian Poutine should be on your list!

          • adamhunter1223

            Already had poutine actually. There's a stand at the State Fair (the minnesota State Fair is a thing to see, tied biggest in the nation with Texas and…well, it's…it's a thing of beauty that can only be experienced, not explained) plus a few other places that I feel are at least decently authentic. It's good, but it also makes me very sick afterwards. No idea why, but it just doesn't sit well in my stomach. I can eat all sorts of weird shit without getting sick (ceasar salad mixed with cheap ass canned chili and orange chicken…don't judge me) but for some reason poutine has me running for the Tums and ginger root.Side note: I'm not into naturopathic medicine at all, but ginger root is fucking magical. I've been on almost every anti-nausea/anti-reflux medication on the market and ginger root trounces every single one of them. If you are someone who has even semi-frequent stomach aches I cannot reccommend it enough.

          • trundlebear

            Ginger is amazing, and I'm with you on it — I get motion sick some days on my commute and have candied ginger with me at all times. Does better than Gravol and doesn't have me half-asleep. Works for upset stomachs so well, too.

            Did you have CANADIAN poutine, though? Was it properly spiced chicken gravy, proper canadian cheese curds, thick-cut fries soaked in the gravy so it is a huge delicious salty mess of heart-stopping goodness? Because any of those things missing means it's just fries, gravy and cheese, man.

            I'm mostly grumping, but I did live in Quebec for almost 10 years, poutine is sacred 😉 I don't even LIKE gravy, but poutine sauce really is its own thing. I buy the canned or packeted stuff because even the stuff in Ontario doesn't come close to matching what it's supposed to taste like, unless you go to like, Smoke's Poutinerie.

          • trundlebear

            Also I just love ginger period. Ginger snaps, ginger molasses cookies, candied ginger, pickled ginger, give it to meeeeee.

            Also handy to have around for figging. MULTI-PURPOSE FOOD.

          • adamhunter1223

            I've had variants with both chicken and beef gravy. I also saw a 'light' version once with tofu curds, vegetable gravy (how the hell?) and 'chickpea fries'. I felt like a dirty dirty heretic just for looking at it on a menu.

          • trundlebear

            Ooooh, chickpea fries could be really good if they didn't get spiced like falafel (I don't like falafel, no issues with people who do). They've come up with a sweet potato hummus recently here that is amazingly good, so I can see it going the other direction really well, too.

            Beef gravy poutine is a travesty. I shall rend my garments and wail, except New York Fries has it as a mainstay. Ugh.

            International Food Pavilion at the CNE this summer. Come visit, I'll feed you roti, and steamed pork buns, and $2 spaghetti. I swear that is 90% of the reason I go to the Ex every year.

          • adamhunter1223

            Sweet potato hummus surprises me, frankly, but I'd try it. I also had some chipotle-laced mashed sweet potatoes (modified from a Good Eats recipe I believe) and they were tongue numbingly good…er, well, maybe it was the heat that numbed my tongue eventually. Either way I'd have them again in a heartbeat…though maybe with some sour cream this time. Nothing quite like biting into a dime sized chunk of chipotle you weren't expecting.

          • trundlebear

            Hahaha ouch!

            I'm not a huge heat person so my hummus preferences are usually of the roasted red pepper variety (there are about 20 different flavours of hummus), but the sweet potato is super tasty, and I'm not even the biggest sweet potato fan. It's just a nice change from salty/savoury/spicy hummus or baba ganoush, I think.

          • adamhunter1223

            I take a page from Alton Brown when it comes to hummus. I make it myself: chickpeas, garlic cloves, olive oil, salt, food processor. Done.

          • trundlebear

            WHERE IS YOUR TAHINI SIR

          • adamhunter1223

            Damn near impossible to find around here (though that's changing). Also I…just don't like it much. If I do add it I use tiny little amounts.

          • trundlebear

            I guess that's an okay reason. I GUESS. I love tahini and sesame-based anything, so. I guess you won't be shunned forever.

            Alton Brown taught me how to make bacon in the oven, I am forever in his debt.

          • adamhunter1223

            At the Minnesota state fair we have bacon on a stick. near foot long pieces of bacon a significant fraction of an inch thick, coated thinly in a maple glaze and threaded onto a skewer for easy eating. Hrrngbleghngleble. My arteries weep at the thought but…but it's worth it. So very worth it.

          • Starleitmotif

            I love sweet potatoes and I love hummus, but I don't think I'd have ever thought to put them together. Sounds either weird or delicious (or, like many of the best foods, both).

          • trundlebear

            It was definitely a "what is this? OH, YES GOOD!" thing and very much a Toronto thing. Considering we have sriracha-flavoured potato chips (making up for our ketchup chips, eeeyuck) I'm not THAT surprised.

            I really, really like "rooster" sauce, although that's totally not what we call it. It's so big here I even have a pen based on it. We're weird. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0057/7042/produc

          • thathat

            Oh, man, I love me some ginger. Especially the ginger chews. And ginger beer. Ginger beer is the best.

            Heh, I love how places have certain foodstuffs that are sacred, and when you hear about it being available outside of its normal habitat, you can't help but squint suspiciously.

          • Starleitmotif

            I pretty much go to the State Fair to pet farm animals and eat (way too much) food.

            And I have to say, seeing "barbecue pulled pork poutine" on a fast food menu in Nova Scotia was just…weird.

          • trundlebear

            Mmm, pulled pork on poutine is pretty good. I'm a purist but I appreciate the options. Nothing is as good as 3am diner poutine, though.

            I used to show animals at the local fair. I'm such a country mouse! Now I go to enjoy moments of barnyard and see whatever bizarre butter sculpting theme is going on this year (I have pictures of the theme "Butter Chris Hadfield". WHAT.)

          • adamhunter1223

            Heh, last time I went to the fair I ate: Cheese curds, a gyro, a peach/raspberry smoothie, BACON ON A FUCKING STICK (times two!), a mixed sausage bowl with cajun sausage, swedish potato sausage, and beef/wild rice sausage, some mini donuts, tacos, a sadly mediochre samosa, Nitro ice cream (vanilla ice cream cooled with liquid nitrogen, THE smoothest and creamiest ice cream you will ever have in your life), backlava, and a few things I forgot. Plus beverages….it bears mentioning that I eat as little as possible the days before and after I go to the fair.

          • Starleitmotif

            I went to the fair with my mom last year, and as soon as we walked in the gate I was debating the relative merits of walleye-stuffed mushrooms and wild rice sausage on a stick. She asked why I didn't eat before I left home, and I looked at her like she had suddenly started speaking in tongues. Yes, it is cheaper to eat at home–but where else are you going to get maple bacon caramel rolls, slushies made from local apple cider, crispy wine-fried kale, and deep-fried cheese curds so good yet so rich you have to share them with at least two other people?

          • adamhunter1223

            Share? Cheese curds? BASEST HERESY!

        • Caliseivy

          This is a bucket list I could totally get behind.

          • adamhunter1223

            Got any ideas you think I missed?

          • Caliseivy

            Sadly no.

          • adamhunter1223

            Oh well

        • choys

          I frequently joke that I eat my way through vacations. I'm of the philosophy that when I'm traveling, I wanna try one nice-ish thing the region is known for, and then go trawling for street food.

          If you're coming for CA food trucks, I say you hunt down a street hot dog vendor and get an LA heart-attack dog (bacon-wrapped and fried in bacon grease along with onions and peppers then served with mayo, mustard, and ketchup. SO GOOD AND SO BAD!) Then, because I'm biased, hit up Koreatown. I miss Koreatown and it's food so so much. T_T

          Avoid the Champs Elysee in Paris. Way overpriced and not as good as finding little out of the way bistros/cafes. Or even street crepes. SO GOOD!

          If you're gonna be in Europe, invest in an Eurorail pass, especially if you were recently a student, and go to Munich, Germany. Then take the S-Bahn to Herrsching and make your way to Andechs Monastery by either hiking through beautiful German foothills and forests or hitching a ride in a cab (much easier). There, you can feast on amazing pork knuckle, german-style potato sald, saurkraut, pretzels the size of your face, and some of the best beer ever. Aha, this is my favorite place in Europe hands down.

          • adamhunter1223

            Duly noted! Quick question: I can't drink and I've heard some weird things about how hard it is to get water at restaurants and such over in europe. I've also heard that you get odd looks if you order water instead of beer or wine, that true?BACONDOGHOLYSHIT

          • BiSian

            No, it's not an issue at all. Though you will have to pay for the water because almost nowhere serves tap water to customers. And in some countries you'll need to specify if you want sparkling or still water.

          • adamhunter1223

            Cool. Really weird though, coming from an American standpoint.

  • OtherRoooToo

    "appropriating nerd culture"

    *rolls eyes so hard they nearly fall out of head*

    Please tell Mr. Young White 'Desirable-Demographic-Age-to-be-Marketed-To-and-Apparently-Believing-ALL-the-Hype' Dude that "he keeps saying that word …"

    So many thing wrong with this I don't know where to start.

    Other than that I'm not sure I've ever seen the concept of "cultural appropriation" MISappropriated so stupidly and blatantly … maybe never. (As in, never has it been this bad.)

    One's culture does NOT consist in toto of what one buys and consumes, you incredible troglodyte.

    *smh*

    The Mary Sue has a take on this from a few days ago:
    http://www.themarysue.com/olivia-munn-and-appropr

    Also? Apparently a ridiculously bad day for ridiculous reasons, for most of the popular ‘Olivia’s out front, over there.
    http://www.themarysue.com/olivia-wilde-leonardo-d

    /long labored weary sigh

    • trundlebear

      I think that a lot of north american white folks really struggle with the idea of culture because it's invisible to them, but also… is just so new in a historical sense that they're still figuring out what the hell that culture IS, you know? You ask people about their heritage and they'll talk about how they have Italian or Irish or Scottish ancestry three or four generations back, and that's how they best identify.

      I had a fun moment filling out disability forms when it asked my ethnicity, and one of the answers was Canadian (not First Nations, that's a separate category). And the person who was with me helping me fill out the form said "Well, but where are your parents from?" "Canada." "Well how about your grandparents?" "Canada." "But what about –" "I'm a sixth-generation Canadian. Seriously, the answer is Canadian."

      Ask me what Canadian culture is and I'll say something glib about standing in line and being polite and being able to read the back of cereal boxes (which are in French, and are not games or puzzles). Get me into a deeper discussion and I'll talk about how fucked up our history really is, but how we really try hard to project a nice image while we keep doing the same awful things. Canada just has really good PR — we say we're a country of "peacekeepers" but you have to look really hard at whose peace we're keeping and why.

      Do I still love where I live? Oh yes. But for all my jokes about writing polite Canadian letters of disappointment (which are in fact super-effective), there's no question that I don't think we're the best country in the world, and I still think we define ourselves as much by how NOT-USA we are as by anything else. That's… not much of a culture. It's why I actually approve of the Parti Quebecois at times (AT TIMES) because I think our French-Canadian culture IS important, but it's also really fucked up and patriarchal and seriously racist, so like, how do we keep the language and the culture without being complete and utter assholes at the same time.

  • Devilbless

    This is just tiresome, isnt it?

    EVEN if someone was faking it so hard in order to get a freaking MOVIE ROLE in something, it means that they invested a shitload into that faking, making it pretty damn hard to fake.

    Also, why the hell do people care so much?

    Let people do their thing, be it nerdy, geeky, jocky, whatever, no one asked you to be the savior alpha male of our so called "culture".

    • Wondering_

      I agree. I don't get why people get so invested in this. Even if there are fake geek girls (which I don't buy), who cares? What skin is it off anyone's back?

      What is the point spending so much time and energy calling out "fake" geek girls or being worried about them or on the look out for them.

      I do not understand the point or the effort of this.

      • One_True_Guest

        The real reason:

        The guys who do it think the girls are hot. They are attracted to them. And deep down they assume that such girls would never want them back. OR they try to hit on them and get rejected which is just as bad if not worse. And they resent them for it. They feel used, they compare it to the highschool cheerleader who'd never give them the time of day. And they see them getting all this attention and they seethe and they get jealous and it's not fair this is their safe space where they get to feel like men not all emasculated and vulnerable and what the fuck do these girls know about being a geek anyway and look she's just using it for attention and doesn't care about any of us and she's just a whore!!!!!

        It's basically sex. Sex is the reason. They want to have sex with them. They resent they can't. They are angry that they feel that way because it makes them feel vulnerable. They lash out at the person making them feel that way.

        • Devilbless

          Thats some harsh psychoanalysis right there.
          But I hear you, it does make sense, only these guys need to realize that EVERYONE feels the same when they get rejected and get the fuck over it.
          We all hurt, we all bleed, we all DONT get what we want.
          If we did, there wouldn't be so many romantic comedies.

          Realizing its all a part of life and accepting that is part of growing out of that pain.
          Denying it and trying to hang on hard to the "boys club" idea is only going to keep them on the shitty path.

          • One_True_Guest

            Oh I agree. I'm actually not not sympathetic to these feelings. I am, as a matter of fact, deeply so. I was being harsh above to make a point. That the Fake Geek Girl call outs come across as irrational temper tantrums more than anything. That they aren't founded in reasonable logic like many geeks would like to think they are. They are primal, based in irrational feelings.

            But the real issues behind it, the vulnerability, the loneliness, the often self loathing, those are big important issues worthy of analysis and empathy. I think also this is where toxic masculinity and patriarchal culture come in. If we allowed men to feel things and express things more than anger, there wouldn't be such terror for men when they felt things other than anger. They wouldn't need to lash out at others, they wouldn't feel like it was their only choice. It hurts me that men feel so trapped in their bodies, so few outlets to express themselves. And I hate that anger and rage and violence, of all the emotions, seem to be the ones most encouraged.

            That must be excruciating to deal with. And not fair.

            But.

            Still doesn't give them permission to treat women like shit.

          • Devilbless

            I think its one of the biggest underlying issues of this generation, patriarchy needs to break and it slowly is, the problem is that so many men are still being fed masculinity that when the world doesn't bend into it, they start losing it.

            Sometimes pushing through is really not the answer, sometimes seeking help, understanding that male depression is a very real thing, and acknowledging that its time to treat it, these are the things that lead to a happy life.

            Blaming the rest of the world for your own issues is the surest way to stay in that pit.
            And it is a dark and deep one.

  • They're calling this cultural appropriation?? Just…JFC. *head explodes*

    We were just talking about Mayim Bialik a couple days ago…also, OMG, that stupid guy interviewing her looks just like my assh*** ex-boyfriend (I mean, I don't think it is, but grrrrrr).

  • This boils down to people wanting to feel accepted, and many people don't feel they can be accepted in a group that lets in people who they're scared of. Women are scary because they're a source of major social rejection, so suddenly they can't feel accepted in a group that includes women. I wonder if there's a way to essentially distract the "boy's club" by providing any kind of feeling of safety during the transition; if there were, I think this would go a lot smoother. In general I try to look for ways to work with the human brain rather than against it, and fear is the leading cause of close-mindedness as far as I've ever seen. If one can allay fear somehow, change becomes easier.

    I just have no idea what could possibly do that. ><

    • Wondering_

      What transition are you talking about?

    • Mel_

      This is ridiculous reasoning.

      For one, as the article points out, nerd/geek "group" has always included women. This isn't some new thing that's happening as a transition. Any geek entered that "group" when there were already women there–if they couldn't handle that, they shouldn't have entered in the first place. How does it make any sense to prioritize their nonsensical ideals and fears over the women who were already there and have just as much right to be there?

      And for another, nerdy/geeky guys get rejected and teased by "cooler" guys, too, don't they? And yet somehow they're able to recognize that not all guys are going to treat them badly. So why is it so hard for them to make the same distinction with women? Why can't they bond with geeky women over their shared geeky interests the same way they bond with other geeky men, rather than seeing women as an evil monolith?

      There's really no good reason, other than seeing women as somehow not as human and complex as men. And anyone who thinks about women that way, again, I really don't see why we should spend all this energy trying to soothe their feelings at the expense of the women they're trying to push out.

    • thathat

      Women are scary because they're a source of major social rejection
      javascript:%20postComment(1);
      Only if you primarily see women as potential romantic/sexual partners, and not other human beings. I mean…that is an absolutely othering statement.

      This is bullying. If it is fear, it's fear of losing perceived dominance. Which is a crappy thing to be scared of.

    • OtherRoooToo

      "This boils down to people wanting to feel accepted"

      Then they need to find another term for it. (And possibly some therapy to deal with their maladaptive behaviors.)

      "Cultural appropriation" is absolutely not the droid these SadDooods are looking for, I'm sorry.

      /sorry not sorry

      If anything – the fact that they're completely blind to what they're doing by trying to apply that specific term to their SadDoood whining and their completely misplaced NerdCred testing?

      That IS, in fact, pretty much textbook cultural appropriation (however negligent as opposed to – attempting to give them the benefit of the doubt here, as we historically disenfranchised folks are regularly browbeaten into doing – deliberate/intentional).

      No. Just no.

      These are not disenfranchised people. They are members of the group who is usually doing the disenfranchising – and that actively so.

      Raging against 'SJWs" who are looking for proportionate representation in media?

      Endless NerdCred testing of women?

      Please stop making excuses for these whiny nerddoood white boys and their clueless wrongness.

      I don't know about anyone else, but it's actually making me slightly nauseous.

    • ZenithBerwyn

      You always seem to get lots of downvotes and I'm not entirely sure why. You're not doctrinaire but you're certainly not deluded or mean-spirited.

      Something I've noticed firsthand is that groups of nerd-guys have had their masculinity maligned for so long, they often don't realize when they're behaving in the same kinds of ways as the types of guys who generally exclude them (and who they therefore consider "Not Nice"). It's true that their self-awareness is for shit, but I do think that a lot of them have never been part of a "boys' club" before in the first place.

      • thathat

        Downvotes don't necessarily mean "you're awful and stupid." It's disagreement.

        I do think that a lot of them have never been part of a "boys' club" before in the first place.

        I've noticed firsthand is that groups of nerd-guys…

        Groups of nerd-guys can and frequently do easily become a "boys' club." Just because they don't fit the classic concept of Popular Guys doesn't mean they don't form a similar mentality.

        • ZenithBerwyn

          "Groups of nerd-guys can and frequently do easily become a "boys' club." Just because they don't fit the classic concept of Popular Guys doesn't mean they don't form a similar mentality."

          …That was the point I was trying to make, but restated.

          • thathat

            Really? Because it seems like you're saying that they've never been a part of a "boys club." But if being a nerd is a boys club, then plenty of them have been a part of that "boys club" for most of their lives.

          • ZenithBerwyn

            I think what I'm trying to get at is more that they've never conceived of themselves as part of THE "boys' club." Like…people who used to define themselves as an outgroup ("we're unpopular") start to define themselves as an ingroup ("we're doing great stuff here!"), and their lack of social maturity shows when more people are interested in being part of it. But they're still not quite aware of how the world around them has changed. If that makes sense.

        • ZenithBerwyn

          Well, I guess also that THEY don't realize that this is what they're doing.

          • eselle28

            Neither do traditional "boys clubs." If you ask a bunch of non-nerdy guys who are a bit past their high school years whether they ever picked on or excluded nerdy men, they're going to say that of course they didn't and that they just didn't have many friends who met that description (or, alternately, that they had a good friend who's a nerd).

          • ZenithBerwyn

            Great point! I do think with nerds there is an extra layer of "WE can't be acting like THOSE guys!" that self-awareness has to drill through. But that could just be because I've observed those groups more closely.

          • Mel_

            Okay, but the thing is (and the reason why people get frustrated with comments like the one that started this thread) if the problem were really just that these guys didn't realize they were behaving in exclusionary and hurtful ways, then when other people pointed out to them that they were being exclusionary and harmful, they'd apologize and attempt to do better. But what we actually see–why we're still having these discussions about "fake geek girls" and hostility toward women in nerd spheres–is many of these guys doubling down when their bad behavior is pointed out to them. Rather than trying to be more open to women geeks, they come up with excuses for excluding them, argue that their hostility is justified, and belittle or dismiss the contributions women have made/are making. I can sympathize with people who accidentally cause harm and regret it. I have a lot more trouble seeing why I should even try to sympathize with people who respond by trying to cause even more harm.

            Especially since–you know what, I never felt like I was part of any "girls club," I always felt like a bit of a misfit and outsider, I've been bullied, and yet I've still managed to consider and try to gently address the feelings of these guys even when they don't seem to be sparing the slightest consideration for me. So it's a bit much to be told, when someone finally puts their foot down and says, "You know what, enough of this, you've crossed too many lines," that we need to spend even more time and energy trying to understand and cater to these people. Some changes can't be made gently. And it's frustrating when people act as if those being excluded or attacked should bend themselves backwards patiently waiting for that to change rather than demand better treatment. Why should we have to feel even more uncomfortable in an attempt to spare the people who caused that discomfort from even a fraction of the same?

          • ZenithBerwyn

            Well…people who have reached a certain level of emotional/social maturity will generally apologize and attempt to do better. A lot of other people who have their faults pointed out to them will feel attacked, get defensive, and counterattack without ever pausing for self-examination. We are all the heroes of our own stories, and people who lack self-awareness will come up with incredibly creative ways to explain to themselves why their own motives are noble and pure, and why they are totally not the bad guys of this narrative.

            "Why should we have to feel even more uncomfortable in an attempt to spare the people who caused that discomfort from even a fraction of the same?"

            You shouldn't! Growing the f up can take YEARS, even for basically decent-hearted people. Even with good intentions, self-awareness doesn't always come easily (especially to nerds who've rarely considered the possibility that they might be wrong about something). Some people never get there at all. It's not your job to wait around for it to happen.

            I was trying to explain behavior, not excuse it.

          • Mel_

            Okay, well, your first comment in the thread you were questioning why people were downvoting someone who was suggesting that rather than calling these guys out, we'd be better off working with their mindset to make them feel "safe" and "allay [their] fear." So your explaining behavior came across as if you were agreeing with that argument and simply adding more explanation for why it was reasonable. If you don't actually think that we should be patiently helping close-minded women-excluders work through their fears, then it should be pretty obvious to you why people took issue with the comment containing that idea.

          • ZenithBerwyn

            I took the original comment more as a musing on human behavior, and an attempt to read people's motivations as they exist (which is what I try to do). I didn't really see an implicit "let's never call anyone out on bad behavior even if the offense is egregious and they no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt." Trying to look for ways to work WITH the human brain rather than against it just seems like a practical and potentially effective way of producing desired results. Dealing with people we don't get along with is necessary at times.

            But we're speaking in very broad, general terms. I mean…are we talking about situations bad enough to call for an immediate and forceful confrontation/condemnation, or is a more positive, indirect approach likelier to spark the desired self-examination? Wouldn't that help dictate the appropriate response? I just have a hard time thinking that there's a blanket one-size-fits-all approach that'll work with everyone equally well, and it's better to have multiple skills in your repertoire.

          • Mel_

            I… don't see where I suggested there's a one-size-fits-all approach that we need to use? In fact, I specifically noted in my first response to you that I try to approach guys like this gently and considerately, but there are points when I feel it's necessary to put one's foot down and say "Enough." You'll notice that I am talking to you, right now, with reasoning and explanations, not condemnations. Since you seem to be trying to understand, I'll break what we're talking about down in more detail for you.

            First, the problems with the original comment, which has content that goes far beyond simply vaguely suggesting we work with the human brain:
            -The comment starts off by suggesting that geekdom is "letting in" people these guys are scared of–that is, women. Which totally ignores the fact that women have existed in geekdom from its inception (as DNL talks about right there in the article above). Geekdom isn't "letting women in", women are already there, and framing it the former way only reinforces the thinking that it was a boy's club that women are now intruding on.
            -The comment then suggests that the specific problem with women is that these guys have been socially rejected by women. Which totally ignores the fact that, as I pointed out at length in my direct response to it, the same guys have generally been rejected by other guys (bros, jocks, whatever) too, and yet are able to get along with their fellow geeky guys. And thus it reinforces the idea of women as "other," beings guys can't be expected to see as simply fellow human beings with varied motives and interests on the basis of nothing except our gender.
            -The comment refers to a "transition" in geekdom, again implying that allowing women in is a new thing rather than women already being there.
            -Thus, the mindset the comment is asking us to be gentle and kind about is one that is already steeped in misogyny–the ignoring of women's contributions and women's presence, the viewing of women as a monolithic enemy rather than individual human beings. And the commenter seems not even to be aware of that, by expressing those ideas as fact!

            When I break it down like that, does it make sense that people didn't respond well?

            Second, as to what situations we're talking about applying one or another approach to, I think it's reasonable to assume that we're talking about the situations discussed in the article we're commenting on, no? The comment includes no mention of any other situations, so that's the context we're left with. And the only situation the article mentions in any detail is a major game creator attempting to shun and discredit a woman on very little basis–a woman who has already faced a ton of backlash and hostility from other geeky guys, which his words will no doubt have encouraged more of. It seems to me that this is exactly the sort of behavior that requires a more forceful condemnation, not gentle reassurance through the guy's theoretical fears.

            Finally, I think many of us realize that there's a point when it isn't more practical or effective to try to work with the human brain rather than against it–that is, when the irrational fears and prejudices expressed by a sizable group of people have not changed despite many attempts to do so and are causing significant harm to others. Sometimes you need to recognize that it's time to stop trying to change people's minds in vain and simply focus on changing their behavior, whatever they feel inside, to protect the people they're hurting. Calling out certain attitudes makes it less socially acceptable to publicly express them, so even if people still hold those attitudes, at least the people they're criticizing don't have to hear it.

            Which I think is the final reason people haven't responded positively to this thread–it's been completely focused on understanding and sympathizing with and dealing gently with proven bullies, without giving any consideration to how that gentle, gradual attempt to change will almost certainly result in continued bullying of their victims in the meantime. For many of us, that's an unacceptable cost.

          • ZenithBerwyn

            I think we're just picturing different "groups." You (and, yes, most of the article) are talking about geekdom as a whole, but when I read the original comment, it made me picture more of a social group, i.e. people who can all fit in the same room. (Probably because I've heard the dynamics in comedy writers' rooms described in very much the same way.) Where a little finesse and understanding might – MIGHT, if we're not talking about a victimization situation, if the social dynamics are simply awkward and uncomfortable – be more appropriate to apply since it's face-to-face, as opposed to the entire culture at large. IF a situation isn't bad enough that bullying victims need protection, if the goal is changing minds, cognitive research says it's more likely to happen when people feel positive and unthreatened.

          • Mel_

            I'm not sure why you're continuing to talk as if you need to defend the idea that sometimes it might be good to use a "little" finesse and understanding. Re-read the first and second last paragraphs in the comment of mine you're replying to. And then maybe do some thinking, particularly:

            Why is it so important to you to reiterate again and again that there are situations where exclusionary geeks should be approached gently when I have already repeatedly indicated I agree?

            Why do you keep reframing the discussion as being possibly about situations that aren't so "bad" even though in my initial response to you (and others since) I clearly stated I was talking about guys who had already proven themselves to be unwilling to listen and doing real harm?

            Because both of those things give off the impression that you're much more invested in protecting men from maybe occasionally being talked to slightly more harshly than is absolutely necessary than protecting women from the widespread exclusion and hostility they're already definitely facing.

            You might also do some thinking on your perception of what is "bad enough." A casual group of geeky friends might not cause much hurt if they decide not to encourage a woman who shows an interest in their social activities–casual social groups have no obligation to include anyone, I just expect them not to be unnecessarily cruel about it. But I don't see that random people are very often trying to be "let in" to totally casual, totally social friend groups. And other smaller types of groups that are more organized and public or official–along line of your writer's room example–like interest-based clubs or game developer studios can cause a lot of harm simply by refusing to "let in" women, whether overtly or by covertly indicating to any woman who attempts to join that they see her as inferior or untrustworthy (by questioning her credentials more, by criticizing her performance more, by explaining things to her even if she says she already knows, etc.). That may not sound like horrible bullying to you, but consider what it means for the woman. She may not have any other options for participating in her interest with others (which may even mean she's unable to really participate at all, if it's an interest that requires more than one person, like various types of tabletop and card gaming). She may not have any other options for pursuing a particular career locally, so she has to give up on that goal. And she's been made to feel she's inferior on the basis of characteristics about herself that she can't change, which means she has no reason to hope the situation will change.

            And while that woman may now be stuck feeling isolated and lonely and hopeless, the guy(s) who pushed her out are getting to continue enjoying their hobbies or jobs and the social companionship of others who enjoy those things.

            How many women would that need to happen to before it would be "bad enough" for other guys in the group to put their foot down and say, "You need to stop talking down to/excluding/whatever the women who come by or else you're no longer welcome in this group"? Before preserving the excluders' emotional well-being becomes less important that preserving that of the multiple people they're excluding?

            I don't expect an answer here. I just want you to think about it. Because you seem to be giving an awful lot of thought to when we shouldn't stand up to these people, even though in real life, face to face, that's what happens most of the time already.

          • ZenithBerwyn

            I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point, since I agree that we generally agree. We're just going in circles with re-explaining and re-clarification. I am bowing out of the discussion. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

          • AstralDazzle

            "much more invested in protecting men from maybe occasionally being talked to slightly more harshly than is absolutely necessary than protecting women from the widespread exclusion and hostility they're already definitely facing."

            Wow. I think you've summed up the behavior of every older relative and school official of my childhood. I mean, this is an apt description of any space in society that's not explicitly feminist, too, but putting it like, it's so obvious how the devaluation of ourselves is learned.

  • Posting separately from my last comment due to topic.

    I feel really jealous of anyone who has a culture that can be appropriated, really. American-white-cracker-girl "culture" is really not something anyone gives a fuck about, nor does it have anything ancient and deeply significant to it. I'm also from the South, where many of us still are having this Germany-esque "oh shit let's atone for history or else at least never ever ever have any pride in it ever" situation because, well, slavery in the past, and modern religious fundamentalism now. Basically my "culture" is either nonexistent or shameful. I tell people where I come from and they pat me on the back and say they're glad I managed to escape. I've never had a place I fit in at all, or a place that I feel like has any roots for me. I don't belong where I came from, and I'm still not a member of where I went later in life.

    I wish I had something like clothes or tattoos or something that were considered both acceptable and meaningful and that were exclusive to my group.

    • One_True_Guest

      I understand where you're going with this, an attempt to articulate this feeling of shame and it seems self loathing towards your own culture. But . . . be careful. Because the thing you are wishing for is romanticised. The less dominate cultures that are appropriated aren't honoured by the gesture. And along with appropriation comes years and years of systemic injustices. So when you are saying you wish you had a culture that could be appropriated it seems cavalier. It seems like you think it's not a big deal for those cultures. It seems, well, privileged. To be able to long for something that others have no choice about, that others have seen happen to them, that others have been hurt and harmed over for bearing those cultural signifiers by the very people appropriating them, it's . . . insensitive. A white woman wearing a headscarf is glamourous. A dark skinned woman wearing a headscarf might get violently assaulted.

      I don't think that's what you were really trying to say. Your point was that you wish you had something culturally that you were proud of. And I am very sorry you feel the way you do about your own culture and identity. But yeah. Just to explain why this post is getting downvoted.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      I get it and see OTG's reply above but if we want to talk about white Southern culture in general without ignoring slavery, there's still plenty of things to be proud of without flying a rebel flag and putting on a white sheet. The civil rights movement had two sides, after all. Even in the south there were plenty of non-black allies in the fight. Its kind of a question of which parts of your heritage you want to focus on. There's an incredibly rich musical heritage, a body of folktales and legends, even a unique spiritual tradition that belong to the South. In the latter in particular but across the board, there's been a lot of voluntary back and forth between rural white, black and first nations culture over the years.

      I can't speak to the sort of Georgia/Alabama Deep South myself but one side of my family is from the Appalachians and I do occasionally regale my friends with stories about miners' union strikes and Pumpkin Man, or make them listen to Charlie Daniels. Can I promise that all of my ancestors were never oppressors? No. The ones I know about, though, have a very rich culture that has nothing to do with the oppression of anyone else. Its a rural, working class culture with a lot of love and heart.

      • Yeah, there's the Southern Gothic genre of literature.

        Also I want to hear about Pumpkin Man.

        • Gentleman Johnny

          Er. . .um. . .shit. Set myself up for that one, didn't I. . .and it figures Google doesn't have a good reference. So, surprisingly enough, the movie Pumpkinhead gets it pretty right and doesn't cast the people of Appalachia as the scary thing themselves. Seriously, bonus points for having rural people who are covered in dirt and wearing simple clothes that are people rather than barely human inbred hillbilly psycho-killers. Anyway, this is going to take a minute and some edits because there's a particular cadence to how this is supposed to be told and its not so easy to channel while sitting in an office wearing a suit. I can't promise how much is from Granny Webb, how much is from the movie and how much is from White Wolf after all these years. Perils of oral tradition.

          So it goes something like this: It starts with the death of a child, always a child because they're innocent souls. Now when a child dies wrongfully, when its someone's fault, the parents have some options. Sometimes you have to take the body to the old woman in the cabin in the middle of the woods. Sometimes you do the work yourself. Either way, the child is buried in a pumpkin patch. The next night, or maybe its three nights later depending on who you listen to, the Pumpkin Man rises out of the pumpkin patch at midnight. He's huge, larger than a man by far, with a body made of ropy vines and a Jack'O'Lantern head with fire burning inside. This demon's only purpose is to kill whoever was responsible for the child's death. You best stay out of his way, though, because he won't let anyone or anything else stop him. If stranger comes knocking on your door at night, especially if its right after someone's child has died, do not open the door until you know for sure he's not on the run from the Pumpkin Man.

          If you've got a grinder, a welding torch and some nails, I make a pretty mean jackrock, too.

          • Ooh, very cool!

            I tried to Google it and mostly found Halloween decorations and Pumpkin Man triathlons. He needs better SEO. ;o)

      • thathat

        Thank you.

        Like, okay, I'm from Louisiana, and my mom's side of the family especially is hella Cajun, so we never really had the problem of "Oh, we have no culture." (Though growing up, I had the problem of feeling ashamed of that culture because I perceived it as being stupid/backwater-ish.)

        But I mean…there is white culture? Like, maybe you look into where your family came from and celebrate that. Maybe you just look at your own local history. But yeah, there's still culture and history in the South that isn't slavery/racism/oppression. (I mean, the music alone!) It's just not as "cool," partially because it's perceived as "normal."

        • OtherRoooToo

          "But yeah, there's still culture and history in the South that isn't slavery/racism/oppression"

          That all looks very pretty and nice.

          But if you're talking about it without acknowledging that it was built literally on the backs of the people, both indigenous and "imported", who were enslaved and oppressed — and anybody who claims either Cajun or Creole background really ought to know all this already — then you're still whitewashing it.

          /don't be That Person

          And I think this is the last thing I'm going to say about this – because like so many nerd-esque conversations that are, either deliberately or negligently, completely clueless about racism & oppression in the over-eager search to over-focus on "interesting historical facts" and assorted minutiae, it doesn't look as though it's going anywhere good.

          • thathat

            It's possible to acknowledge that history without celebrating it, yes. I mean, any sort of history is wrapped up, good and bad–you can't really separate the two entirely, and you shouldn't. But you can still find the good things that come from your cultural group without constantly wringing your hands in guilt either, and bemoaning how it isn't fair that you need to feel ashamed of your heritage, etc.

            My point is less "ignore the slavery/racism/oppression" and more "please for the love of biscuits, find some symbol other than the freaking Confederate Flag to use to represent your culture."

            But then, again, Cajuns have a plethora of symbols not directly related to oppression to chose from (or, well, not related to other people's oppression).

          • OtherRoooToo

            "without constantly wringing your hands in guilt either"

            No one is looking for anyone's guilt, and I do find it … interesting … that you would go straight there.

            I find it even more interesting that you'd want to emphasize this

            "But then, again, Cajuns have a plethora of symbols not directly related to oppression to chose from (or, well, not related to other people's oppression)"

            without – if you're trying to do what you say you are doing – acknowledging that *other* indigenous and oppressed groups *also* have similar plethorae of symbols (some glorious ones, too) not related to oppression.

            (Which is kind of tied directly into the implicit bias thing, if you don't see it – and again (since apparently I have to emphasize it since you decided to leap on the "guilt" sword when – again – nobody asked for that) that doesn't mean someone is doing that intentionally. The neurology of "othering" is something the human brain automatically tends to do — not acknowledging the positives of groups different than the ones to which we personally belong. What we do, or fail to do, about it once it happens is, however, a different matter.)

            Interesting, but not terribly surprising.

          • YoshiLand

            You're smart. Good shit.

          • OtherRoooToo

            Aww. Bless your heart.

            (To use a “Southern-white-appropriated” “positive” phrase, if you will – to stay with the theme of the “joke” (because I’m sure you can see the look on my face right now) unironically. :-))

            And thank you for the compliment, truly unironically.

            But the thing is – I’d like to think I try every day to make the best use of the brains the universe sought fit to give me … but it isn’t just about that.

            It’s that if you are near-literally obligated, by virtue of the “out-groups”, if you will, to either experience or discuss this day in and day out because you’re literally experiencing these aggressions and assaults and blindnesses born of unexamined assumptions (go to page 6 for a chart) literally every day of every year of your life – you become near-forced to develop a familiarity with the nuances of these topics that the people who don’t have to deal with them do not, because you have to be able to function through it as well as deal with their fragility on the topics, in order to survive (a mechanism with which I just sense you might be familiar).

            It usually blows my mind the hardest when white (or white-presenting) women get snippy about it, as happens here from time to time
            http://www.womanistexpressions.com/uploads/2/6/5/

            or men of color get angry about it.

            Both of which seem to happen without anyone apparently stopping to actually *consider* what they just read or heard. It’s like a knee-jerk reflex.

            It’s a pretty big fail of intersectionality when that happens, which is why I’m that much more appreciative of your taking the time to both read and comment.

            So thanks.

            🙂

          • YoshiLand

            Fam, I'm high af and that was a lot of words so Imma assume you said nice things.

          • OtherRoooToo

            Baaahahaha. You are right. Take your apple cider vinegar to clean out your system and read it tomorrow. 😀

            Rafa just won a 3-set squeaker against this 6’5” NextGen dude who’s been hogging the spotlight all week with his upsets, so now it’s Rafa in the QFs at IW when I was worried, so – as I said I was trying to earlier – I’m doing my best to move away to a whole different conversation.

            Vamos!

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Well, if you're looking for positive influences in your own culture because you're trying not to appropriate others', a certain amount of "othering" (in the sense of acknowledging that this is a culture that is not mine) is necessary. Yes, every culture, everywhere in the world has positive symbols but if I don't want to be That Guy with a bindi on my forehead, its on me to look for things that are appropriate for me to use. That requires acknowledging that while red ochre ceremonial paint (which is more or less universal since its made with rust and water) may be part of my European heritage, specific Australian Aborigine designs or Native American "war paint" are not. Those are things from a culture that I'm not a part of.

          • OtherRoooToo

            "Well, if you're looking for positive influences in your own culture because you're trying not to appropriate others', a certain amount of othering is necessary. "

            That's probably one of the reasons why this

            "The neurology of "othering" is something the human brain automatically tends to do — not acknowledging the positives of groups different than the ones to which we personally belong. What we do, or fail to do, about it once it happens is, however, a different matter."

            was one of the last things I said …?

          • Gentleman Johnny

            OK, but at what point does the onus on me go from
            "my heritage is. . ." etc to being required to add "but every culture has good things about it, too"? I mean that as a real question because Thathat and I were both discussing the specifics of "I do come from a culture that has done things that are bad but there are specific elements like [thing] that are worth keeping as part of my heritage". With an implicit "you, Alcoraiden, probably have positive elements in your heritage, too."

            Yes, there are things about your heritage that are worth you keeping, too. I'm sure you don't need me to say that.

            So what's the appropriate ending there? Is it "all cultures have some version of [thing]?" Is it "what about you, Roo? What's a marker for [thing] where you come from?" Is it not discussing those elements at all, regardless of whose culture?

          • thathat

            Yes, thank you. This is what I wanted to say. I'm…really confused about the tack this has taken.

          • thathat

            I…really don't think you're reading me right, here. Like, at all.

            No one is looking for anyone's guilt, and I do find it … interesting … that you would go straight there.

            I went straight there because of Alcoraiden's comment :"I'm also from the South, where many of us still are having this Germany-esque 'oh shit let's atone for history or else at least never ever ever have any pride in it ever.'"

            If it needs clarifying, while my reply is nested under GJ's comment, I mean that to be "yes, and"-ing his response to Alcoraiden. I'm basically trying to address my issues with the ideas/attitudes Alcoraiden initially posted, because ~"Oh, but white culture is so boring, I wish I could have some of that much more exotic culture"~ is a very frustrating thing to hear. (To clarify, I hope that the ~" "~ conveys that I'm not directly quoting anyone, just sort of paraphrasing the way the statement comes off to me.

            So I went "straight there" because "straight there" was already on the table, and I haaaaaaaate hearing people complain about the "guilt" of being white, and how they "can't have any pride in [their culture] ever."

            since you decided to leap on the "guilt" sword when – again – nobody asked for that

            To reiterate: it had already come up, I was addressing it because it had already come up, and I really feel like you're not being particularly fair about how you're reading me right now.

            without – if you're trying to do what you say you are doing – acknowledging that *other* indigenous and oppressed groups *also* have similar plethorae of symbols (some glorious ones, too) not related to oppression.

            I…what?

            Look, I really think we're having two different conversations.

            As I see it, the issue that started this thread is the fallacy of, "White culture is boring, and we don't have any symbols to celebrate it that aren't bad." Which…is something I usually hear when people start explaining why they have a Confederate flag on their car somewhere–because it's the only symbol they can think of. That frustrates me a lot, especially coming from fellow Cajuns, because we actually do have our own symbols, tied into our specific heritage, that were never used as a symbol of oppression. I get that we're a little luckier than, say, folks in Mississippi in that regard, but still.

            I have no idea what your point is about "without …acknowledging that *other* indigenous and oppressed groups *also* have similar plethorae of symbols (some glorious ones, too) not related to oppression. " Like…I'm really not sure where in the world you're getting that. The whole issue that kicked off this thread was someone complaining specifically that Other Cultures (non-white) have those symbols, etc, and that they wish that they (white) did too. So that's already acknowledged in the very opening of this conversation.

            My only purpose was basically emphasizing and agreeing with GJ's comment — that if Alcoraiden wants to have cool cultural things to celebrate as a white Southerner, that those things do exist, and you don't have to exoticize other cultures.

      • adamhunter1223

        You seem to be omitting food. Cajun and Creole food (there are other culinary traditions down there too, but Cajun and Creole are the ones I'm familiar with) are both things to be proud of…and salivated over. Especially salivated over.

    • eselle28

      It sounds like that's a painful experience, and I'm sorry that you're having it.

      I do think that you may want to consider that someone raised in a culture other than the dominant one might still have those feelings of not belonging or fitting in. Having roots doesn't necessarily meant that you relate to them, after all, and people in that position sometimes experience others trying to shove them back into their culture's box.

    • mediumballpoint

      I get what you're saying. My culture has been a key part of helping me make sense of the world around me and the places where I don't fit, and it's also been the source of some great coping skills and resiliency. The flip side, though, it's that it's infuriating and, more importantly, ridiculously exhausting to have to fight against people who think it's cool to wear my culture's religious dress for kicks, or use it as a theme for a frat party or professional event, or tie racism to sports events to get people in the door, or use my culture's generally low SES as a punchline. What's worse is to object to these things on relevant grounds and be told we're too sensitive and not assimilating and self-segregating. So yeah, having a distinct culture is super awesome and I absolutely love it, but defending it constantly is work. It's hard work and some days it doesn't feel worth it and I'd give up a lot to be able to pass as majority culture more easily. The grass is always greener, right?

      But I'd really miss my culture if I didn't have it, and I imagine it's difficult to not have a touchstone like that. Is it possible to maybe start some meaningful traditions for your friends and family? The cool thing about culture is that it can be both pretty general and pretty specific (heck, look at all the debates around "pop" vs. "soda" vs. "Coke"). You can build an Alcoraiden culture and pass it on to the people who are important to you. There may not be pres-existing cultural pieces that fit for you, but you can definitely build some that do.

      • TinyTeacup

        It's actually really easy for people to be cut off from their culture by the dominant one. I have a cousin who is half Japanese. Her mother and her mother's family are from Japan, but her mother died when she was really young and she has never known any of that side of her family. She knows no more about Japan, her family, or her culture than any average American. She wants to go to Japan someday and meet that part of her family, but she's really scared that she'd be rejected because she doesn't feel any rights to her own heritage.

        Heck, my family is Acadian, with Native American ancestry (which really shows in my grandmother). My grandmother is really interested in our family's history and culture. Her dad was a French-speaking Canadian, but he never spoke French to his kids and never taught them about their heritage. She's spent years trying to reconnect with that part of herself. She's been learning French, and has studied Acadian dance and music as long as I can remember, and she's done a lot of genealogy work, but I just don't feel any sort of connection to it. She's spent decades trying to regain that connection, and she's tried to get me and my brother interested in it too, but I wasn't raised with that culture. I mean, I listened to French songs growing up, and I speak a little French, but it's not something I feel any connection to, even though I'm from an area with a huge Acadian population. It's right there, but I can't quite touch it.

        • trundlebear

          This just reminds me of a friend of mine who was adopted as an infant through kinda questionable practices (not on her white adoptive family's side, although they get a bit of a side-eye on it). They were told she was from China, so she grew up being given all sorts of Chinese cultural lessons and them all going to learn to speak Mandarin together.

          She's Korean. It became super obvious as she grew up.

          She says she has to think it's hilarious because otherwise she'll cry. She's a Korean steeped in both north american and chinese culture and languages and has absolutely no ties to the culture she feels is actually hers.

          • trundlebear

            On the flip side, a white friend of mine is married to a Japanese woman (although they're both first-generation Canadian), and they've both had to turn down job offers from places away from the city because they doesn't want their kids to be in school systems where they're the only non-white kids there and the only culture they'll be exposed to is… white. At least in the city they're surrounded by different cultures, so as a result the kids themselves aren't any more different than anyone else.

    • YoshiLand

      I'm PWT and our culture is the culture. Ours takes from all the others.

    • slidebytheside

      You can't wear it, but one thing uniquely Southern that's not immediately based on repression: food. Take African, English, Irish, Native American, and Scottish influences, and jumble together haphazardly. "Soul food" is stereotyped as a trait of African-American culture these days, but before the 1960s almost everyone in the South ate that way.

    • Yeah….I mean, you pretty much belong to the dominant culture so it's not really hard to be "cool" within that culture. I mean, you kind of have everything by default. And I enjoy the benefits of the dominant culture as well….namely being able to pass as Blandy McBlanderson.

      Although maybe it's because both sides of my family were pretty serious about hiding their cultural heritage for self-preservation. I dimly remember bits of both cultures, but on threat of beatings or worse after a certain age I lived in a part of Michigan where being anything other than white was tantamount to a crime.

      When we lived in Detroit I was surrounded by both sides of my family's cultures and more, but after moving all that went away thanks to living in the middle of Militiagan where being the wrong type of ethnic white could be a problem. Of course, coming from two ethnic groups that exist in diaspora being able to hide culture and heritage is pretty much in the blood.

      It's not an accident that prior to moving to California to an area more than 82% non-white I never even felt comfortable telling people my family background save maybe that we came out of the Czech Republic, never mind talking about my Romany or Jewish heritage.

      So, yeah….kinda hard to feel a lot of sympathy when the dominant culture can wear, listen, eat anything but anyone whose actual culture includes something can be attacked because of it. And if I feel that way, pretty much having lost or given up my connection to my cultures, imagine what people who still exist within those cultures and can't easily pass must feel like, because I'm pretty lucky in terms of being able to pass as blandly American.

      Basically, everything that OTG said, but maybe that explains why things aren't even always obvious.

      • **And I enjoy the benefits of the dominant culture as well….namely being able to pass as Blandy McBlanderson.**

        I think that really gets to the heart of what appropriation is. You (or I) could choose to dress in a flashy manner or be very loud or dye our hair weird colors or…I dunno, join a confrontational street theater troupe if we want lots of eyes on us and lots of attention. And we can choose to blend in and be Blandy McBlanderson if we want to be left alone (which tends to be my default, btw). Someone from a non-dominant culture may want to be left alone but is often a spectacle simply by being "other." It's whether or not the culture bestows you that choice in the matter that's the difference.

  • Poor Cliff. Clearly he's in dire need of medication.

    Ps. About the appropriation part, where do you draw the line between appropriation and appreciation?
    For instance, I have maori style tattoos. Now I didn’t set out with the express goal of getting maori tattoos: I just thought the time had come for more ink on my skin. Then my father introduced me to this guy, Darby Tuhaka from New Zealand, who was a maori tattoo artist. I told him stuff about myself, and based on my past experiences he sketched the symbols he thought fitted me the best. That’s called kirituhi, or simply skin art. That’s cultural appreciation, in my book.

    Now, if I had simply copied some tattoo design I’d seen on a photo of a Maori dude online, and had it tattooed onto me, THAT would be cultural appropriation, since I’d just nabbed the guy’s Ta Moko, which contained his whakapapa (genealogy). It would be like wearing someone’s family tree on my skin. http://media.newzealand.com/en/story-ideas/ta-mokhttp://www.newswire.co.nz/2014/03/resurrection-ta

    • YoshiLand

      Dude, I don't understand it completely but its about power structures and intent.

    • Wondering_

      That’s cultural appreciation, in my book.

      But are you Maori? Because, if not, it's not your book, it's theirs, and you don't get to have the definitive word on what is and isn't appropriation of their culture. The fact that you phrase this as if you think your opinion is the one that matters betrays the privilege you have in doing so.

      • Yeah, you're right. That was poorly phrased on my part.

    • trundlebear

      There's no medication for "sexist asshole", but thanks for the swipe at people who aren't neurotypical.

      • ? I'm on the Autism spectrum myself.

        • thathat

          Okay? And?

          In plain English, responding to hearing about someone being a jerk with "he's in dire need of medication" is kind of a gross thing to do–it implies that people who are jerks are that way because they have some kind of mental illness, that mental illness, especially unmedicated, makes people sexist a-holes instead of them just being…gross, entitled jerks.

          Even if oldboy was neuroatypical, that wouldn't excuse or explain why he's so full of hate here, and medication wouldn't do anything to fix that.

          • I concede the point.

          • trundlebear

            I've also known Cliff professionally for years, he's just an asshole with delusions of grandeur, but you can say that about basically any creative director and probably be close to the mark (I am so getting fired for this, but seriously, Design track is egopalooza).

            I take medication so my brain won't kill me, and so I can sit up and not be stuck in a bed all day. I get grumpy when people assume that anyone acting like a jerk just needs some prozac, because medication doesn't work that way, and it doesn't mean people taking it are secretly monsters that are only being kept in check by their daily dose of pills.

          • laserwulf

            A neurotypical friend of mine had to deal with a brain fungus a few years ago; literally a fungal infection that crept from his sinus cavities up to his brain. The symptom that led to its discovery was that this normally nice guy became a raging asshole, seemingly overnight. Medication got rid of it, and he went back to his usual chipper self.

            I'm not saying that Cliff -has- a legitimate excuse like that for being an asshole, just that for such a complex biological contraption as the human brain, it can be affected in unexpected ways by any number of sources.

    • SandwichSlut

      If the tattoo artist is indeed Maori and he was the one to create the designs for you, then yes I think that counts as cultural appreciation rather than appropriation. Having someone from that culture essentially give to you what he felt was okay to share is perfectly fine. I'm not sure if this is the case with your artist, but I've heard that the Maori put a concentrated effort into anticipating cultural appropriation from White people and worked to create designs that looked similar to their sacred ones but were not actually sacred so when white people inevitably saw the designs and went "Cool, me want!" then they had something for them to use that would not be a violation of Maori traditions.

      Really, it comes down to both parties exchanging things on equal footing.

      • Yeah, when we met, I didn't even know what kind of tattoos he made. He asked me to tell him stuff about my personality, my family and my life experiences, and while we talked he made sketches. He then explained to me what the symbols meant and how he thought they fitted me.

  • YoshiLand

    How can you appropriate something designed for mass consumption? Dudes really are that afraid that women will take their toys away.

  • brainstewdgeek

    Web series were definitely a thing in 2007 when the Guild was coming out, and it was becoming a popular medium because of youtube. Red Vs Blue? Homestarrunner? The Spot?

    Great article otherwise! Agreed on all fronts

  • To the cultures these are being taken from, this is profoundly insulting

    Not necessarily? I think it depends on the power relations between the cultures.

    I've heard Mexican people saying they don't give a flying fuck if others want to celebrate Día de Muertos. And here we have Halloween parties, completely out of context.

    I'm from Argentina. One of the latest winners of the Tango World Cup was a japanese couple. You won't hear ANYONE complain about japanese people "appropriating" our culture. On the contrary, people here are happy our stuff is known all over the world. Even Schwarzenegger doing random shit to the tune of Por una Cabeza in True Lies is only ever seen as funny. I don't think I know ANYONE who was offended by that.

    • Gentleman Johnny

      I've heard something similar about Dia De Los Muertos and the unrelated (but thematically similar) Santa Muerte, because death is a universal experience. . .
      BUT. . .
      that pre-supposes that you're taking in the whole thing. Dia is a religious, or at least, spiritual festival at its heart. Dressing in Mariachi or Flamenco outfits with sugar skull makeup and going out drinking kind of misses the part they're trying to share.

  • trundlebear

    I have a song (and video) for this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ

    This is super powerful to me because the first time they sang this song at GenCon was in an auditorium packed with geeks (5 days of board games, D&D, writer's workshops and every nerdy thing imaginable) and all the women in the audience started singing along with the chorus. The second chorus, EVERYONE in the audience was singing along, men, women, however people identified, and there were quite a few people with things in their eyes.

    We ALL had nothing to prove. We were there because it was what we loved, and we loved the things we loved unabashedly.

    (Watch the video, it still chokes me up.)

    • Gentleman Johnny

      So. . .you're saying you have a Doubleclicks song for that. 😀

      • trundlebear

        IT'S NOT MY FAULT THEY ARE CONTINUALLY RELEVANT TO THIS SITE.

      • trundlebear

        I mean really, this is Doc Nerdlove, they are Nerd Musicians, the venn diagrams of these two things are basically a circle 😉

    • SandwichSlut

      I have a friend in that video! Such a good song ^_^

      • trundlebear

        Yaaaay! I have a friend (well, their cat) in the Cats At Parties video, I <3 the Doubleclicks and the amazing community of people around them. I wound up doing afterparty stuff with them because I'm friends with Molly Lewis and the Cat Keyboard kept getting passed around the table, it was so much fun and SUCH good people and conversations and rawr.

  • Jenn77

    What bothers me is that I far too often see guys and MRA types trying to erase women's contributions both in geekdom and history.

    According to some I've run across ALL conflict was created by women to kill men.

    We've forced men to fight in fights that were somehow our fault. [Because no wars ever started because of men right? Or because of complex issues that involve many people, and many years, and many things out of anyone's control.] We created the draft, and when wars were going on we just sat on our asses and twirled our hair. We weren't nurses or translators or builders. And losing sons, husbands, brothers, friends, fathers didn't hurt us at all.

    • trundlebear

      Clearly the answer is just to send all women to the moon. Then everything will be perfect on earth and there will be absolutely no repercussions whatsoever.

      BRB getting ready for the MOON!

      • Jenn77

        Nah Mars is where it's at. Some alert the Mysterons, they should be told ahead of time to avoid…problems.

  • Here's what it means: Not one of the people being accused of this shit ever had to PAY the "iron price" for their love of geek culture. I got called 'faggot' 'nerd', 'geek', and 'gay' for liking books for fuck's sake. I grew up around violence towards 'geeks', where it was fine to mock me for liking the work of Stephen Brust or playing Dungeons and Dragons. I'd get shoved into things, I'd get insulted – I have a signature in a yearbook that basically tries to help me out by saying 'We all like comics, Dan, you would be cooler if you didn't tell people.'

    So – tell me how a person like Olivia Munn is a 'nerd' in the context I know? You simply can't. You can justify it by saying 'Oh, everyone's a nerd!' — well, to that I say 'Yep. Now. Everyone CAN be a nerd without fear of actual social reprisals'.

    And that path was made possible because me and all my friends got called 'faggots' for liking something so effeminate as being literate.

    I don't think Olivia Munn is a fake anything. But everyone who paid the 'iron price' for the identity of 'Nerd' or 'Geek' — they're going to first think about how this beautiful person didn't have to worry ONE FUCKING SECOND that liking something would lead to humiliation or physical abuse.

    So, keep THAT in mind as well. Since we're all capable of nuance, I hope.

    • eselle28

      Olivia Munn is a woman who has a Twitter account. I am quite sure that people have called her terrible things and have threatened her with physical abuse. I know that people have hacked her phone and published her sexts on the internet. Do you think that wasn't humiliating for her? Or is it only your experiences with harassment that somehow count?

      Being a geeky woman isn't easy. You still get picked on by mainstream culture, and then there's often an additional layer of belittlement from the geeky men who were supposed to be your allies and your refuge from the harassment. You at least had your little group of friends to play Dungeons and Dragons with. Your female counterpart was often alone in her room, because she had no means of finding similarly inclined people.

      • eselle28

        Also? Lol at this "iron price" nonsense. The Ironborn are a bunch of pirates whose culture tends toward being shitty, abusive, patriarchal, and anti-intellectual. Getting called names as a teenager does not make you similar to them, nor do I see why you would want to be.

      • trundlebear

        This person thinking that people in high school won't find other things to bully others about, um. Pretty sure they find excuses. It's not about what you like or being a nerd, it's about bullying.

        Also the assumption that she was always a "beautiful person" because we all know beautiful people spring fully-formed from the womb and bypass all other stages of life.

        Just, seriously. Thinking people didn't get bullied in high school because they were girls? Um.

    • Oh, do fuck right and completely off.

      I hope that was nuanced enough for you.

      Nerds don't have any special claim to being bullied, not having derogatory comments about one's sexuality made against them (especially considering what actual gay people went thought), or being beat up, or anything else.

      Paid the "iron price" my ass. Boo-fucking hoo.

      Despite what cheap sit-coms try to tell use, there was no systemic break down of people into easy camps like "jocks" and "nerds", and plenty of people read Stephen Brust without being called names.

      Your petulance and shitty attitude lose any sympathy I might have had for you having had a rough childhood, but you know who else has a rough childhood and teen years? EVERYBODY.

      There were plenty of jocks reading fantasy books and plenty of nerds playing sports, and this mythologizing is ridiculous.

      Demanding that anyone who is a True Nerd have paid a specific level of psychic and physical torment in order to join the club in just you trying to be a bully as an adult.

      And liking Stephen Brust got me laid, so one man's poison…

      • BiSian

        I'm SO OVER the idea that nerds were the most bullied people EVAH.
        My little sister was bullied through middle and early high school. She's not a nerd. She just ran afoul of some shitheads–because teenagers. And you look at her today? I'm sure shitheads like Mr True Nerd would sneer at her and refuse to believe she'd had it just as rough as him. Because she's conventionally pretty and feminine (fashion designer–so proud of her!).
        So. Enough of this bullshit martyrdom complex that nerds were the most persecuted. And enough with the idea that such crap is all that defines us.
        Like Jim said, you being the Gatekeeper of True Nerds is just you being a bully. But you're an adult and don't even have the shaky excuse of being a teenager. So. Stop it.

        • Georgia_D

          Similar story with my sister who was bullied horribly at school. She's not a nerd either. She's also conventionally pretty. Personally, I was bullied fairly mildly despite being unpopular, geeky and not pretty. Teenagers are just horrible people sometimes.

          • devicat26

            hmmm, the question is more like who WASN'T bullied at some point in childhood? Children are little shits. Wasn't there a philosophy that children are beasts until parents teach them not to be?

          • Georgia_D

            Judging by some adults their parents never got around to it! I agree though, there may be a few people who were never bullied but I suspect most people were at some point.

      • thathat

        Y'know, I just realized what attitudes like OP's remind me of. There was this sketch comedy called "Little Britain," and one of the recurring sketches was about Daffyd (I think), a Welsh guy at a bar, who would always loudly bemoan how hard life was for him, "The only gay in the village," being that he was "the only gay in the village."

        Literally everyone else in the village was gay. He just never noticed.

        • BiSian

          YESSSS!
          And the whole "You can't be a real gay unless you pass my insulting tests!"

          • thathat

            Oh gosh, yes, he did do that, didn't he! Hm, okay. I need to go hunt for some old sketches. It's been years since I've seen 'em, so I don't know if they hold up, or if they're awkward and cringe-worthy, but I think Daffyd could be our new mascot for Gatekeeping.

          • BiSian

            I mean the whole point is that there awkward and cringe worthy 🙂 I fully support Daffyd bein their new mascot

        • rebootI730

          That show cracked me up and you are so right

    • Dr_NerdLove

      A) Of course you have highly reliable and easily corroborated sources that backs this up.B) I know folks who committed suicide because their *parents* bullied them. Fuck your “she probably didn’t get called names”.

      C) She’s a woman on the Internet. She’s not *done* getting shit from randos.

      • Hell, a successful nerd-bro with a massive following just spent the entire weekend bullying her. Never mind all the shit she got back when she was on G4 for being an attractive woman on a gaming channel, from the shit-tests from nerds at conventions to having to dehumanize herself by playing dancing monkey to guys who both hated and lusted after her…and that's not even getting near what any woman in America born of mixed ancestry is going to go through as a child and youth.

        I have no doubt she's paid more prices than the dip up there can care to think of and paid them many times over.

      • One_True_Guest

        Re: C) – isn't this entire bloody post inspired by the fact that she gets shit from randos. On a regular basis???

        • Trakiel

          Offtopic:

          How did the word "rando" enter the common lexicon? Is saving one single letter really so worth it that the word 'random' is deserving of its own abbreviated form? Or is it a conspiracy against the letter 'm'?

          • I KNOW THIS!

            It's not actually cutting off the "M", it's cutting off the "OM" and adding an "O."

            Basically, it's the same construction as "Weirdo," "Sicko," "Bizarro," etc.

          • badwolf359

            To be quite frank, I"m not even a big fan of how the word "random", ever since the '90s, has slowly taken on the meaning of "unexpected" or "out of nowhere". The majority of the time, when someone talks about a "random person", it's actually a QUITE SPECIFIC person – sometimes one who was specifically chosen, and therefore the exact opposite of random!

            Anytime someone calls a thing or person "random", I get the urge to ask them if if it/they were actually picked blindly by a random number generator or unbiased computer algorithm.

            Yeah, I know, "language changes" blah blah…meanwhile, we all sound like a bunch of Valley Girls, and nobody ever thinks about WHY they use the expressions they do. I can accept language change when it's intelligent and an improvement, not when it sounds like shorthand/slang that a teenager would use.

          • thathat

            I can accept language change when it's intelligent and an improvement, not when it sounds like shorthand/slang that a teenager would use.

            I think that's a matter of opinion, because I've found shorthand/slang a teenager would use often is actually fairly intelligent slang that tends to fill a gap of some kind in language. I mean, most slang is basically shorthand–if not a shorter word, then a word that conveys a more specific idea. It just depends whether or not you personally like it, if you find it "intelligent" or not.

            Like people make fun of the internet phrase "feels" (as in "this gives me feels" or "Ah! My FEELS!"). Because yeah, overtly, it looks pretty stupid. But it conveys a specific concept–not just "feelings," but specifically overblown feelings, usually about something trivial/inconsequential (like a fictional character, or that fictional character's even more fictional relationship with another fictional character), that the speaker knows isn't actually important. So it conveys the meaning of, "Yes, we're all flailing around like sillies over this silly thing, but we all actually know it's silly, we're just having a good time here."

            But it "looks stupid" to people who don't usually participate in those conversations.

          • badwolf359

            I'll applaud you for at least giving me an intelligent, well-thought response, rather than the usual drivel I encounter when I voice that opinion, which is that I'm a complete monster and a retrogressive "language Nazi" for having it. Thank you at least for a civil, non-knee-jerk response.

          • fakely_mctest

            I think this is an excellent place to link an excellent defense of the casual linguistic use of the word "like," which also seems to draw a lot of undeserved ire.

            "I’ll fuck you up buddy this is not a speech impediment it’s linguistic evolution!! the existence of the phrase “Aisha was like” allows the speaker to convey whatever Aisha said without making the listener assume they’re quoting Aisha directly while still maintaining the FEELING of what Aisha said.

            i.e., Aisha said she didn’t want to go out with me VERSUS Aisha was like, “I’d rather kiss a Wookie”.

            the addition of “XYZ was like” lets the speaker be more expressive and efficient and it is a totally valid method of communicating information!!"

          • This article is my favorite today. You win!

            Because it causes wild mental flailing for me to try to narrate a conversation in a way that is interesting without using the word "like." I balk at using "said", because I what I am saying is not actually what was said. It is the intention of the thing, with fun color added.

            "When Michael told me we were going out, I was like, 'Um, listen, poptart, your ignorance is adorable and all, but I actually have to buy in for that to work out.'"

            Because clearly I am not claiming those were the actual words I said. They describe my reaction with color and, well, simile. Fascinating how we return to the word "like."

      • badwolf359

        I have a feeling if we ditched the term "bullying" altogether, and started calling it what it actually is – "assault and battery" (or, if it's purely non-physical, "harassment"), society MIGHT actually start taking it as seriously as it should be.

        • thathat

          Nah.

          I mean, how seriously does society take sexual assault? Especially if it's anything "less" than an actual rape attempt? Usually if you try to apply the word to groping, etc, people tell you you're overreacting, and insulting real victims of assault.

          • badwolf359

            Well, yeah, but when an adult punches another adult, it at least IS a crime (on the books, anyway; whether we actually prosecute it is another matter). When a kid punches another kid, we tell the victim that it's "part of growing up" and "builds character". How about taking the radical, revolutionary position that everyone has the right not to be assaulted? Not wanting to be hit isn't a weakness of character; it's an expectation of basic, common decency.

    • Starleitmotif

      I mean, I certainly never got made fun of for reading books with dragons on the covers or for liking elves and unicorns (which, besides being fantastical, are also "girly" and "childish," so there's three strikes against them). That definitely never happened. (Hint: I'm lying about that.)

      But I'm not as pretty as Olivia Munn or Felicia Day, so maybe that's the difference. Because obviously being very conventionally attractive means you were well-liked and popular, and you haven't ever been bullied or had anyone be mean to you, and it also means you couldn't possibly have liked "nerd" things or have admitted to it if by some fluke you did.

      Look, I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm in the same general age range as Olivia Munn and Felicia Day, and I assure you, "paying the price" was never something unique to the suffering of *male* geeks.

      • eselle28

        I am also about their age, and I know I definitely never had two sets of books – one of things I felt I could safely take out of the house and another that tended toward having dragons on their covers and that I wouldn't dare to read in study hall.

      • trundlebear

        Not just by other teens, but by teachers, too. I was told to stop reading "pulp fiction" on my own time in the library by several teachers, and several teachers tell me that reading fantasy or sci-fi books meant I'd never be well-read enough to get far in life.

        I was also taught video games would rot my brain, now I make brain-rotting media! Rawr.

        • Starleitmotif

          But Trundlebear, think of the zombies! What will they eat if you keep rotting everyone's brains?

        • devicat26

          : D I got into trouble for reading Jurassic Park in class, but that was my own fault for not paying attention to the lesson. My mom though, got rid of my brothers and mine gaming systems (Atari, Nintendo AND Super Nintendo) because she wholeheartedly believed it was destroying our brains.

          We still make her apologize for it nearly thirty years later. Strangely computer games didn't get the ax so we just switched over to all the Sierra games. God I miss those games.

      • OtherRoooToo

        I'm going to do the derail some of the dudes sometimes do when the thread topic isn't really about dating – but your comment just reminded me of a peripheral issue that rarely even gets addressed without a whole bunch of "Nuh UH" from the Nerd Persecution Complex Crew:
        http://thehathorlegacy.com/beautiful-girls-cant-g

        • Barretts_Salt

          Good morning:)

          Logged in just to say thanks!

          Enjoy your day:)

          • OtherRoooToo

            Always happy to bring someone some sunshine — so I hope you're enjoying yours!

            🙂

          • Barretts_Salt

            Yes! Literally so — we had a sunny day — in mid-March — just north of Seattle. Downright mythical:)We drank our bitters while the empire fell– Warren Zevon

    • nonA

      Let's ignore the issues that everyone else will focus on, and for the sake of argument we'll also assume that Ms. Munn is as much of a casual, who lives as blessed a life as you say.

      You still don't cover why life being rough on you is such a point of pride. Not the good things you've done. Not your ability to empathize with other people. Your value as a human being is directly proportional to the amount of dirt you've eaten.

      Please explain this. As popular an outlook as it seems to be, it's always struck me as completely nonsensical.

      • eselle28

        This is a really good point in addition to all the things people are saying about whether in fact Munn has experienced bullying. It's not an experience that automatically makes people better humans or better nerds. I'm sure there are some people who feel being bullied left them with a better sense of compassion or justice, but I suspect for everyone of those, there's someone who's been left shaken and unconfident or bitter and prone to lashing out at others. It would be a great world if no one were bullied for their hobbies. Why encourage more bullying simply because someone has been lucky enough not to suffer?

      • Jenn77

        And that shit like this *going away* is viewed as bad thing.

        I mean I wonder if the guy who wrote that comment in the yearbook really wanted to talk about comic books but couldn't. And that said guy might be really happy that now he and his [potential] kids can enjoy things like comics without getting bullied.

      • thathat

        Actually… yeah, wait, that's a good point. Since he says he's not saying she's a fake anything. Just that…she hasn't…suffered?

        Which is an incredibly…stupid thing to think. I mean, she's an actor. At some point, they all have to deal with oodles of humiliation, and their is usually filmed too. Also, I mean, she's a human being, and a woman, which means worrying about humiliation and physical abuse is kind of a low-key background hum.

        But regardless…why would it matter if she hadn't?

      • Trakiel

        You still don't cover why life being rough on you is such a point of pride. Not the good things you've done. Not your ability to empathize with other people. Your value as a human being is directly proportional to the amount of dirt you've eaten.

        Please explain this. As popular an outlook as it seems to be, it's always struck me as completely nonsensical.

        It's so appropriate you mention empathy, because that's exactly the reason for the outlook – people who have this outlook don't have empathy for those different than them. Because they themselves lack empathy for others, they then erroneously believe that other people won't have any empathy for any abuse they've suffered. So they adopt the attitude of "you can't be one of us unless you've suffered like us" as a form of gatekeeping.

        Of course, since this kind of lack of empathy is a hallmark of one of the effects of unexamined privilege, naturally white male nerds are the most prevalent culprits.

    • SandwichSlut

      There is no "iron price" for being a nerd. No one should have to "pay" anything to be a nerd. You were bullied, and that was terrible, but that's on the people who were cruel to you. That doesn't mean everyone who wants to be called a nerd should suffer for something that should just be about fun.

      And if you think a woman claiming to be a nerd or related in any way to nerd-doms on the internet hasn't paid the "iron price" for doing something she enjoys, you should look up a couple of women by the name of "Anita Sarkeesian" and "Brianna Wu".

    • BiSian

      Shitty work computer won't let me on Youtube right now, so I'm just se ynna quote The Social Network:
      "You think girls don't like you 'cause you're a nerd. You're wrong. It's because you're an asshole."

      Also. High school is over. So get the fuck over it. (with a therapist, good friends, and your own personal brand of selfcare as needed). Because hanging yourself on the cross of "Was Bullied in High School" is annoying AF

    • thathat

      Not one of the people being accused of this shit ever had to PAY the "iron price" for their love of geek culture. I got called 'faggot' 'nerd', 'geek', and 'gay' for liking books for fuck's sake.

      Screw you, I got just as bad, and for the same thing. And then worse again from the guys who were geeks, because I "didn't belong" there. "Iron price" indeed.

      But everyone who paid the 'iron price' for the identity of 'Nerd' or 'Geek' — they're going to first think about how this beautiful person didn't have to worry ONE FUCKING SECOND that liking something would lead to humiliation or physical abuse.

      No. No, that's just you and people like you with crappy, horrible attitudes. That has nothing to do with "paying the iron price" (that hyperbolic reference was not clever enough to warrant being repeated). Because that is a straight-up ignorant, incorrect thing to assume.

      I mean, do you have any idea how many "beautiful people" get sexually assaulted at comic cons? I mean, that's just one extreme example of (usually) women liking something and it leading to humiliation and physical abuse. But yeah, I got humiliation for over a decade, just for reading.

      And seriously, just because someone's "beautiful," you think they never had to endure that? What, you think they were always beautiful? You think being "beautiful" matters in this context anyway? Because hell, dicks like you humiliate "beautiful" women for coming into you clubhouse by assuming that they don't belong every day, or by assuming that because they're beautiful, that they can't also be smart or nerdy, or whatever.

      I'm sorry, you claim that you're capable of nuance, but you have none. Just sheer, embittered, massive, gross ignorance.

      The "iron price." Oy. You being treated badly doesn't give you some sort of pass to assume the worst of other people. Get the hell over yourself. If you're old enough to remember the days when being a nerd got you taunted on the playground, then you're old enough to have a little perspective and maybe understand that. And to also understand that it doesn't make you special.

      • trundlebear

        The "iron price" is what I am now calling the supplements I have to take because my body crushes my body out of my body once a month.

    • In addition to everyone else's excellent points, I think it is extremely telling that you are willing and able to talk about being called names and shoved and mocked as the "iron price".

      I went through my HS years as one of a small groups of female nerds, and our experiences of being nerds included regular need for medical attention, having our hair cut off against our will (a friend, not me), constant sexual harassment and threats of sexual violence, AND being called names and casually shoved and our things destroyed.

      If all that happened to you was name-calling and shoving, I do not think you are at the top of the not-a-poseur ladder, my friend.

      • rebootI730

        Seriously. Dude got off easy compared to the girls with nerd interests in my school, especially if they were conventionally attractive. I escaped it because I had a well earned reputation of being kind of vicious and violent, but some of my friends had it rough as hell.

    • whereismydragon

      As a woman who was bullied in school for being "smart", liking books and then had to wade through increasing amount of misogyny to fall in love with video games and comic books in her late teens: fuck you. You, and MEN, do not have a monopoly on being made to suffer for liking what you like and SHAME on you for being exactly as narrow-minded and judgemental as the assholes who bullied you.

    • TinyTeacup

      A girl I went to school with had to be dragged out by the cops because she threatened to STAB me. Because I'm smart, and I love to read, and am a geek. She also ripped up half a term's worth of my schoolwork for one class, and I had to rewrite EVERYTHING the day before it was due. I'm 98% sure it was her, but nobody saw and so she was never punished. And that's just one of many, many others who would bully me. I was also sexually harassed and cyberstalked.

      A couple of my friends were jumped in the school bathrooms on a number of occasions, usually by at least three people at a time, because the teachers wouldn't be there to do anything until after the fact. (One of whom, I might add, looks almost exactly like Emma Watson except with a slightly narrower chin, so yeah, she's very attractive. She was also raped, which led to even MORE abuse and bullying, because the guy who raped her was VERY popular.)

      But, y'know, this is all beside the point. Because having been bullied isn't a requirement for being a nerd. All that is required to be a geek or a nerd is to like certain things. That's it. In fact, I have a friend who is very much a nerd and was NEVER bullied. He plays D&D. He reads fantasy and scifi. He watches anime. He games. He's really big into WOW. Hell, he signs his name "Firstname of the Lastname." He even has a Revenge of the Nerds laugh! And he was never bullied. Not once. Is HE less of a nerd because the people around him were decent human beings?

    • Light37

      And you know that she never got humiliated or abused for liking unpopular things- how, exactly?

      Not to mention, as a actress, she gets all those lovely rape threats and people saying she should be shot like a dog that seem to be endemic to being a woman on the internet.

      Playing Oppression Olympics is a really dumb sport.

    • aennilla

      How do you know that she didn't have to "worry ONE FUCKING SECOND that liking something would lead to humiliation and abuse"?

      Today I look pretty OK, no one can tell I was bullied in school. When I was 7yo and walked from the store with a Spider-Man comic some kids saw me. That started the endless streak of abuse that didn't stop until my family moved when I was 16. The name calling was bad; from the more harmless like "bookworm", "nerd" "four-eyes" and "teacher's pet" to the harsher "c**t", "fugly", "fatto" (although I was underweight) and "disgusting". But the violence was worse. They hit, kicked and spat on me.
      And when I started to develop early the violence turned sexual. I had almost always bruises on my breasts from groping and pinching. Sometimes a group of three boys surrounded me and started pinching me everywhere, including between my legs, leaving bruises so I couldn't sit properly for a few days.
      I walked to and from school the same way as a few of the nerd boys did. One on one, when no one else was around, we could talk about books and other geeky things. If there were two of them, they ignored me or called me names.

      Fast forward 20 years. I've kept my geekiness under wraps, my looks improved and I found people with the same love for comics and books online. So I thought that I can finally be a geek without repercussions.
      Then I broke the law of Having Opinions on Comic Books While Female. Some Self Appointed Judge of Geekdom decided that for the crime of saying "maybe Miles Morales will be a good Spider-Man, so what if he's hispanic", I was deserving of harassment. Stupidly i used the same e-mail for a bunch of different forums, so during a discussion on crocheting SAJG could show up, call me names and post lies about me.
      It may have been funny when he called me a "frigid sl*t". It stopped being funny when I got an e-mail that said "one day your son won't come home from school and you will never know why". Not in english, in my language.

      I only opened my browser for paying bills for 6 months. This is the first time I comment on anything in 5 years. Because it's important that you know that
      1. you can't tell by looking on someone if they were bullied when they were younger, no matter how beautiful they are today.
      2. bullied nerds and geeks can be bullies too
      2. no, not everyone can be a nerd without social reprisal today.

      • Thank you so much for sharing this. It's really, really important for people to be able to read stories like this.

        The traditional "bullying story" in our culture is the white male nerd being called names and shoved into lockers, so the other kinds of bullying (whether it's the name-calling directed at girls, too, the sexual harassment, or the internet stalking and threats) get either downplayed or blamed on other causes. "You're not being bullied because you're a nerd, the way I am! You're being bullied because XYZ."

        They don't want to let us in the club, so they make themselves believe we never paid their "admission fee."

        🙁

        • aennilla

          Thank you Eliza Jane.
          * They don't want to let us in the club, so they make themselves believe we never paid their "admission fee". * Exactly. And many of us have been sitting in a corner in the clubhouse all along. They just never noticed us.

      • One_True_Guest

        I second that thank you. It must have been scary for you to speak up now but know your story is much appreciated. I only wish there was a way for more people to read it, not just buried in a comments section.

        Doc, what would you think of an entry where you share anonymous stories of what it was like to be a nerd that wasn't white and/or male?

        • aennilla

          Thanks OTG.
          Yes, this caused a minor panic attack (with the sniveling, shaking hands and stomach ache and the whatnot). But the friendly responses helped me. 🙂

          Oh, and I second your suggestion to the Doc.

          • thathat

            Something like that is really hard to write, and you've been very brave for sharing it here. I'm so sorry that you have had to deal with that.

        • Dr_NerdLove

          I’d definitely be interested in that.

          • One_True_Guest

            Excellent! 🙂

      • Light37

        Thank you for speaking out. *internet hugs from a fellow nerdy gal if you want them*

        • aennilla

          Feeling a lot better today. But hugs are always welcome, so thanks. 🙂

      • librarianjenne

        That's devastating. Thank you for sharing that.

        It wasn't until I read your post that I remembered about the guys only being willing to talk to me if no one else was around. It didn't matter how much we had to say to each other about nerdy stuff (mostly computers), as soon as another guy showed up, I didn't exist. I was also shoved, pinched, hit, spat upon, had my stuff vandalized. I was also advised by adults not to seem smart because boys don't like that. I don't see this as paying my dues– I see it as being surrounded by assholes and adults who were unwilling to help.

        • aennilla

          I'm sorry that you had to deal with this crap too. You're right, the adults. I'm basically over the stuff that kids did, but I'm still angry about the indifference of the grownups.

          The first time I was hit in in first grade,I walked over – crying – to the teacher who supervised recess and told her what had happened. She winked, smiled and said "Maybe he has a crush on you?". I was six and a half, I didn't have the words to tell her that what I had seen in his eyes wasn't affection, it was more like contempt and disgust. But she taught me that 1. I would not get help from the adults 2. it was OK for a boy to hit me if he just said he liked me. Not the lesson she had in mind I guess.

  • AnonotronX

    Marketing is some *serious* capitalist devilry.

  • I didn't even finish reading this and it took up to much of my life.

    I won't speak for anyone else. For me a fake nerd is the guy who in high school bullied the kid with glasses who read comic books and played D&D. And now hes all into comics and nerd/geek stuff because it's become mainstream and cool. Or the girl who made fun of the nerd in high school but now pretends to play video games naked or in sexy outfits.

    But that's just me.

    • thathat

      Why does that make him fake, if he genuinely enjoys stuff now? People change. Heck, there's been plenty of stuff that I thought was stupid for a while before I experienced it in a way that made it appealing.

      And I mean…is there a specific girl that you…know for a fact "pretends to play video games naked or in sexy outfits?" Because that seems…actually, that just seems stupid. That seems like a really weird thing to say.

      People change. Being a dick about something in high school doesn't mean that you can't grow up and see the appeal now.

      • I play video games naked all the time, because I get distracted by video games in the middle of changing clothes.

        (I have focus issues)

        • Trakiel

          Or if it's hot. My bedroom gets really hot in the summer and I'll sit naked at my computer until the AC cools it down to manageable levels.

          • Yeah, I love how "I'm playing in my underwear" means a picture of excessive sweat and "Gross, TMI!" from a guy and "She's a fake geek girl trying to gain favors by using her imagined sex appeal!" from a woman.

          • And by love I mean, "Loathe, passionately."

          • Trakiel

            To be honest if someone told me they never once played a video game naked or in their undies I'd be skeptical that they really played video games at all!

            Always plays fully-clothed – possible fake geek.

          • enail0_o

            Oh, man! My gaming devices are all on a different floor from my clothing, and I'm too lazy to make an extra trip upstairs, so I always get dressed before I leave that floor. I'm a fake 🙁

          • Trakiel

            I'm so disappointed in you, enail. Because of your admission I've (regrettably) had to call the Geek Police. They'll be around to your place to collect your gaming gear this afternoon. I hope you take this opportunity to reflect on the choices you've made in your life that have brought you to this point.

          • enail0_o

            That's harsh but fair. I still get to keep my feminist cookies, though, right??

          • Trakiel

            Depends. The Geek Police are fond of chocolate chip. If that's the type of Feminist cookies you have, they may confiscate them "as evidence". It's kind of shady, but I don't make the rules. Better hide any chocolate chip Feminist cookies if you want to keep them.

            If it's like oatmeal Feminist cookies, they'll be safe.

          • enail0_o

            Brb, hiding- I mean, definitely not hiding anything. Just doing totally innocent stuff that has nothing to do with chocolate chips.

          • OtherRoooToo

            *helps hide all the chocolate chips*

          • enail0_o

            It's our secret stash now! 😀

          • trundlebear

            I have no blinds! I have to get dressed or someone will call the cops.

            Granted "dressed" can still mean "pajamas".

            Also my cats scratch my lap up if I'm naked and they're trying to cuddle while I play games. Or read.

          • I assume you're just doin' your thang and there's no Male Gaze around to accuse you of being a faker. (I play Candy Crush fully clothed and don't pretend to be a gamer). ;o) I'm passionate about reading and certain TV shows, but I just…don't feel comfortable enough in my body to do things naked/in underwear unless it's absolutely necessary (sex, showering, changing clothes). But my experience isn't everyone's.

          • Trakiel

            I just…don't feel comfortable enough in my body to do things naked/in underwear unless it's absolutely necessary (sex, showering, changing clothes). But my experience isn't everyone's.

            No sweat, the815. I tend to enjoy being naked and will do lots of things sans-clothing, except for eating. For some reason, eating while naked feels weird and uncomfortable and I'll always put clothes on to eat my meals or snack, even if I'm eating at my computer. I don't understand it, but it's not something significant enough for me to try to figure out, so I just live with my strange little quirk.

          • Caliseivy

            I have that problem with eating too! I think it's because it makes me feel dirty, like what if I drop sticky food on myself?

            Not a huge fan of being naked, but I've found that walking around in my underwear (especially if they're nice ones I find sexy) has helped me become more comfortable with my body and appearance.

          • There is a Male Gaze in my home (boyfriend) and not that he says jerky things about my body, but…I'm being observed, gah… Working on getting in shape/liking what I see more. Dancing in my underwear at home sounds awesome, actually.

          • trundlebear

            In the words of my WoW guild leader, "Show me a raider who hasn't peed in a bottle and I'll show you someone who hasn't killed Ragnaros."

    • **pretends to play video games naked or in sexy outfits. **

      Um, wouldn't these be actresses in pornos playing a role? Isn't that like being mad at an actor who pretends to fly?

      • I'm pretty sure he's taking a shot at women who do Twitch, Let's Play, and other streaming videos of them playing and get accused of using their bodies to attract viewers even when fully clothed.

        I've seen men accuse women of playing "naked" when they've been wearing sweatpants and a hoodie, so bundled with his other stupidity I'd take that comment with a metric tonne of salt.

        • I have no idea what that is, but…it sounds like it's a business that wants your money? Kinda like dating sites promising that a bunch of Playboy bunny and Jon Hamm lookalikes are just WAITING to connect with YOU, just 5 miles from your location in Idaho?

          If so, that's marketing, not "fake geek girls" (assuming I read the situation correctly).

          • No, that's the thing; Twitch actually actively discourages that kind of marketing and has strict rules governing what people can wear or do on their streams. It's just a live streaming service that shows people playing video games.

            The video game takes up most of the screen and the person playing is a small insert in the corner or does a voice over.

            There's no charge to watch, although some Twitch or other streamers (there's multiple services) can charge a subscription fee, and there's probably easily more men that do it than women, it's just that if a woman does it they're accused of using their appearance to get more viewers.

            The most famous Let's Play personage is PewDiePie, a European dude who is kind of a bro.

            So, not only is the marketing not direct towards "sexy", the actual service has nothing to do with "sexy", it's just that any woman who exists on the net is going to get accused of using their boobs to get views/money because nerds are awful.

            Which isn't to say that there aren't attractive women who probably do make more money doing it, and it's not to say that some women don't skirt the edges of what Twitch allows by wearing as revealing an outfit as possible (there was just a Kotaku story on a woman wrote about how she tried to use the sexuality angle to get more viewers but was no longer going to do that as it took away from her enjoyment of the game), but like all things having to do with such things; it's a two way interaction. The viewers are still paying for or tipping the streamer for a service, even if that service is playing a video game in a low-cut top, and the women involved are still playing games they enjoy.

            However, most of the women playing are just regular players….and it shouldn't matter what a woman wan'ts to wear while playing a game whether she's streaming or not, but none of that stops dudes from being shitty towards women in gaming, no matter what they're doing or what sort of games they are playing.

        • If it's not marketing but everyday users – yeah, I guess I have occasionally seen YouTube videos of people playing games and talking about their strategies and whatnot. Also I've read idiotic comments on YouTube videos and news stories where I was like, "WTFFFF are you even talking about?" So I guess I get the gist.

          • I didn't really understand the attraction of watching other people play video games at first, but I've started following a few people who stream games and it's actually interesting. Some of my friends who are cosplayers will do it in costume because they play games anyways and they have the costumes so it's fun and they will set up a virtual tip jar, and then there's others that are just funny and hilarious to watch because they are funny people, and then there's other that go deep into the theory of games like the one queer game developer I watch who offers a perspective on games I wouldn't normally get, both via their background in game development and from their reading of games from a queer perspective.

            For the Twitch service a few have subscriptions where you pay to watch them live and chat with them and then they'll put their games up on Youtube for free, and there's some who don't charge anything but have a tip jar, and some who just play for the love and throw the walk-through up on Youtube afterwards.

            I went from not understanding why anyone would want to watch something like that to being really invested in a few of the channels because of what I learn by being exposed to how other people play and think about games, and having access to a lot of people with deep knowledge bases where I learn things from watching…and a few that are just fun to watch.

        • Trakiel

          I'm pretty sure he's taking a shot at women who do Twitch, Let's Play, and other streaming videos of them playing and get accused of using their bodies to attract viewers even when fully clothed.

          Seriously? I'm pretty serious about my nerditry but a Let's Play series is more effort than even I'm willing to put in. The idea someone would call a person who produced a Let's Play series a "fake geek/gamer" is like a candle accusing the sun of not being hot enough.

          • I had no idea how much work went into those, or even just streaming, until I started reading up on it and talking to some friends who do it for fun. Especially the Let's Play videos, where they have to navigate Youtube, compress files, make sure the audio and video is synched, deal with any technical issues, deal with any clearance issues or copyright claims on music or anything else once it is uploaded….not to mention taking the time to make interesting videos that people want to watch, especially if you're livestreaming and interacting with the audience.

            Just the amount of time spent on those things alone is massive. It's why I try to at least tip if I'm watching something live because there really is a lot of work that the viewers never see. And again, it is a performance for an audience, which is work as well.

          • Trakiel

            Yeah that's what I learned too. Of course, I was dumb and went out and bought a capture card and some editing software before I did any research on it, figuring the software would do most of the editing work for me. Lol nope. I recorded a short 45 second intro-type clip and making just that very brief clip presentable took a lot longer and more effort than I had anticipated. And that was just a very simple clip with me doing a voice over, no music or anything else fancy. I also then understood why my uncle, who puts together wedding and other videos professionally, has tens of thousands of dollars of equipment.

    • One_True_Guest

      Being a dick doesn't make you fake. It just makes you a dick.

      Also is the bully still a bully? Or did they maybe you know grow up, realise they were being a dick, change their ways, decide to see what all this nerd stuff was about and get really into it? I mean, that's the thing. PEOPLE CHANGE. Just like you were once bullied and excluded and now you're doing the excluding.

    • BiSian

      The fact that you freely admit to not caring to read the entire article in your rush to come down here and proclaim your commitment to being a jackass to anyone who reminds you of someone you didn't like in high school speaks volumes and none of them are flattering to you, bro.

    • Wondering_

      So, being a bully makes you not a nerd?

      Then everyone currently bullying Olivia Munn is not a nerd. And most nerd men I've personally met? Not nerds because they pulled* this bullying shit on women nerds.

      *Or tried to pull. Nerd guys trying to fake-nerd-girl me about Tolkien stuff I have always found highly amusing. They're still bullies, though.

    • YoshiLand

      No one gives a shit.

    • Robjection

      I didn't even finish reading your comment and it took up too much of my life.

      • OtherRoooToo

        *splutter*

        Please let me know the next time you're going to say something that hilarious, so I can put down whatever I'm consuming and not choke on it.

  • GothamBuddha

    Like how Blizzard is using Indian gods and their attire as "skins" for their gaming character without any sensitivity towards the Indian culture? http://masteroverwatch.com/asset/image/skins/Symm

    • YoshiLand

      Omg please stop with this stupid false equivalence.

      Are minorities really the same as a brand that is to be commodified? Where is the Klan meeting bro?

      • thathat

        I'm confused both by the initial comment and this response, tbh.

  • H. Savinien

    Yeah, I'm just ignoring anything from her at this point. Death of the Author, now let us build something more interesting.

    • trundlebear

      I got that way when George Lucas said "Gay people don't exist in the Star Wars universe".

      I mean, seriously. I know it's your sandbox, but that doesn't mean you have to use it as a litterbox.

      • adamhunter1223

        Wow, never heard about that one. Holy shit…never have I been more glad that he didn't write the latest one.

      • H. Savinien

        Pretty much. Okayyyy, you can keep your racism/homophobia etc., I'm gonna be over here with the other people.

      • Wow, when did he say that one?

        That makes the fact that Karen got a married gay Mandalorian couple into the Republic Commando/Legacy of the Force books even funnier.

        Then again, Lucas never considered the Expanded Universe stuff to be "real" Star Wars anyways.

        • trundlebear

          Man, the Karen Traviss hate for her Mandos books was so awful — I LOVED those books, her books were really the only ones worth reading for me in the last 8 years or so in the EU, and I tried SO HARD to like the EU past the Thrawn trilogy and the Rogue Squadron books. So, so hard.

          She's a great writer and people lose their shit because a woman's touchin their bounty hunters/mercenaries/soldiers/etc.

  • nonA

    Any readers here either still in high school or only recently out of it? Care to share your experiences?

    Because I deal with college kids on a fairly regular basis. And from what I've seen, while it still has its own issues, the 80s era archetypes people seem so fond of held on at best to the mid 90s, leaving them significantly dated now. I'm curious to hear from people more directly on the ground.

  • CONSUME

    • AnonotronX

      Guess we're only allowed to critique the gender politics and not the capitalism as well.

      Great. To. Know. Guys -_-

      • One word written in all caps is not a critique of anything.

        What point is OP making? How does it connect with this story? I can take guesses, but it's not my job or anyone else's to tease out meaning.

        We argue gender politics all the time here, there's just not much patience when some bitter dude who has a history of being a bitter dude comes in and writes something that is rejected by objected reality and obviously a product of their person prejudices. And there's plenty of discussions where men have been defended here, so it's hardly an uneven field.

        Passive aggressive posts like your post isn't all that endearing either.

        • AnonotronX

          Eh, I felt like I detected a kindred spirit re: the role of marketing in how this whole "fake geek girl" horsecrap and the undeserved downvotes for it. I could be wrong, though. Hard to say.

          I have no idea what you're talking about in your third paragraph in the slightest. I'm legit confused.

          Passive aggressive? Maybe. I got a point though, and when you got a point, you don't *need* to be liked every step of the way for it, if its true.

          • There's a HUGE conversation to be had about the role of marketing sexuality, female sexuality, and marketing female sexuality towards alternative cultures whether it's nerds or metal heads or "alternative" communities (see: Suicide Girls), but that doesn't make the girls who engage in it "fake".

            Even if it does, it raises questions about why they're in the wrong and a male actor or model who does the same thing doesn't get any static.

            Instead of making a "Oh, bother, I guess we can't talk about this because we're men", why don't you actually start the conversation?

            Because there's a lot of smart people here, men and women, who'd probably have a lot to add to such a conversation, and many who would agree with you about the way marketing co-opts women's bodies and uses them as props, or how marketing is directed to certain groups in the most superficial ways (slap a pair of glasses on a man or woman and they're a "nerd"), but OP didn't actually say anything. The reaction was probably more against the one word shout than any possible argument (and there's no telling what OP meant), but it's a valid argument that no one is going to stop you from having.

            Of course, if you just focus on being bitter and blaming the individual women rather than talking about the complex market and corporate forces behind it, you may get some push-back, but so what?

            And if, as you say, you don't need to be liked, what do you care if you get some down votes? Notice that no one deleted OP's message, he just got down voted, and no one followed up because there's no argument to follow up on.

            Feel free to make the argument you want to make, no one is going to stop you, and maybe if OP is a "kindred spirit he'll come back and respond, but no one owes you or the OP up votes, and OP is, again, ONE word, not an actual argument. But, again, if you don't need to be liked, what do you care about up or down votes?

          • AnonotronX

            I just. What???? Look dude, I'll admit I've been sparse but if you're thinking that I buy into the "fake geek girl" horseshit because I want to focus on critiquing the capitalism that helps people buy INTO that horseshit, you're not paying attention to what I'm saying, at all.

            Why do I care about the downvotes thing? Because its important to point out BS, so we know what it is.

            In retrospect, I might have been clearer if I had stuck to my own comments in the thread.

            But I don't think you're ever going to give me a fair shake because we've butted heads in the past and clearly don't like each other.

            So we're pretty done here.

          • thathat

            Because its important to point out BS, so we know what it is.

            Responding with a single-word movie-reference rather than actually engaging in discussion is BS.

          • AnonotronX

            Okay dude, we get it.

            The conversation's over.

            You can move on.

          • eselle28

            You realize you're responding to a different person there, right?

          • AnonotronX

            Yeah of course. They're repeating themselves, and I found it annoying.

            So like, for real. We are done here.

          • "We are done here"

            Are we? Have we been dismissed? I don't know, we're not supposed to leave our seats until the bell rings.

            Good discussion, I'm glad we took the time to share ideas and grow as individuals.

          • OtherRoooToo

            hee hee hee

            XD

          • AnonotronX

            Glad somebody's having fun I guess.

          • eselle28

            Options here, among other things*, include both flouncing from the conversation and having the last word. But you don't get to both flounce and have the last word. That is just not how flouncing works.

            *Further options include, but are not limited to, explaining what the fuck you're talking about and engaging in dialogue with others if you feel they've misunderstood you.

          • AnonotronX

            Not my fault if he can't take the hint, man.

            Besides, this bit is just getting into some peanut gallery nonsense, so yeah.

          • I'm not sure you understand how a commenting section works…it sort of IS the peanut gallery.

            Seriously, though, you've had every opportunity to actually start the discussion you want to have about consumerism, but all you've done is shown that you don't really want to have that discussion.

            All you wanted to do was pout and swan about going "Oh, look at my freeze peaches being denied! We can't talk about the capitalism or gender politics….despite people talking about gender politics throughout the comments….oh, noes!"

            And your little "I'm done with this…you have to stop talking now" bit which….yeah, again, I don't think you realize how commenting sections work.

            You also took great pains to go on about speaking out even if you're not liked…except you're also really upset about being downvoted.

            One of those things is not like the other.

          • AnonotronX

            Wow dude, now you are just going after me.

            I gave you plenty of times to clearly not get into an internet fight, but I guess you actively want to?

            Well I don't.

            I know how comment sections work just fine, kiddo. I also know how suggestion, implication and etiquette work.

            So let me make this a bit simpler and clearer for you: *I* am done. If you aren't sympathetic to anything I have to say or how I go about saying it, fine. Like I said: we've had beef in the past. We clearly don't like each other. I don't expect you to give me a fair shake.

            And that's obviously not going to change any time soon.

            So here's just letting you know: I am not talking to you about any part of this anymore.

            Think and feel whatever you want about that.

            But you might as well keep it to yourself.

          • " If you aren't sympathetic to anything I have to say "

            You haven't actually said anything.

            I honestly don't recognize your name and don't remember you ever commenting before so we don't have any "beef" on my part.

            Again, and as others have said (I suppose they all have "beef" with you too), if you actually have any interest in having a discussion just start it and actually make your point.

            I kinda think engaging in stupid little slapfights like this with me and others IS your point, though, but I'd love for you to prove me wrong and actually have this important discussion about capitalism and the commodification of culture and the female form that could be had because it is an important topic that is definitely worth discussion.

          • eselle28

            I'm in a pedantic mood, but only one of the four people you've been talking to thus far identifies as male, and that person is not the one your most recent comment was in reply to.

            But mostly, if you actually care about shit, claim it and talk about it. If it's just a throwaway comment, shrug if people get it wrong and leave it be.

          • AnonotronX

            cute

      • thathat

        A one word reference to a movie isn't really an actual critique, it's a step away from a Family Guy joke. If they'd actually thoughtfully presented a point and related it to the discussion of women being shut out of nerdspace, then maybe we'd be having a discussion.

        • Georgia_D

          I downvoted it because I thought he was just yelling random words. I didn't actually realise it was a reference to something. I realise I'm kind of behind on my movies but even so!

  • Troll finally got some clicks.

  • badwolf359

    Speaking as a nerd, nerds are their own worst enemy sometimes. Guys who are bitter that girls didn't pay attention to them in school, act in ways that drive women away. Gee, I don't see how that could possibly be self-defeating…

  • adamhunter1223

    Cliffie, I hate to break it to 'ya, but you sound like a toddler whining about catching cooties because a girl is trying to come into your top secret blanket fort. Do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up.

    • Or like a toddler whining that someone else is blowing out the candles instead of him because he doesn't understand that it's not his birthday party.

      • Light37

        Or a kid at his birthday party demanding that he should get the prizes that the guests won and pitching a fit when this doesn't happen.

  • "Please believe, I'm not a mansplainer"

    And yet evidence, namely this post, suggests otherwise.

    "There absolutely is a double standard and it needs to be wiped out."

    There isn't, but even if there were….so the fuck what?

    There are plenty of dudes who, by your definition, fit the definition of "Fake Nerd Guys" and no one is shouting about "wiping out" the double standard.

  • nonA

    First, a rant. If you have to call attention to your feminist bona fides, you're already doing it wrong. I really wish we could call a moratorium on all the handy shibboleths, so people started paying attention to what actually matters. Being conscious of and sympathetic to the vast, varied multitudes of people out there.

    Second, let's break the "fakes" into categories. There are newbies just getting their toes wet, who should be made to feel welcome. There are casuals, who by their nature don't engage the community enough to be an issue. There are self-centered people and bullies in all communities, and communities need to figure out their own ways to handle those people. Which kind of person are you talking about.

    I will say one more thing, though. Queen bees who reveled in the attention for being the only girl in the group did exist, but they depended on other young geekettes to feel that there was no place for them in dweeby circles, and thus not stepping out to visibly contradict the "only girl who likes this stuff" message. Now that nerd is the new hip and people can complain about too many casuals, the environment those queen bees depended on is as dated as the nerd vs. jock conflicts.

  • Lenx71

    You know, I can almost understand where cliff is coming from (almost). America doesn't have a culture that isn't in some way based on hate, bigatory, or racism and wasn't built on the backs of non-white people. European culture is a bit better (by which I mean, they had a few centuries to develop national identities) but America's schtick has always been cherry picking the interesting bits of whoever we shat on and laughing at them while we did it and calling it 'culture'. The 'melting pot' crap is just an excuse for the fact that our culture IS cultural appropriation, it's the only thing we've ever been really good at…aside from killing people who aren't white anyway.

    Even if nerd culture's got huge problems it's better than american culture in general, so anything that even seems like it jeapordizes that would likely set people off. When I see this I see someone incredibly guilty deep down because he knows that the only reason he's societally significant is that he's got white skin and that white skin means hundreds and hundreds of years of racism and barbarity to try and make up for.

    • Trakiel

      Awww, poor Cliff and all his heaps of WHITE GUILT. Anyone want to step in and assuage his tender feelings? Such a fragile flower, having to live with all that burden…

  • DorianGray

    Olivia Munn is absolutely taking advantage of nerd culture for her own gain. But guess what, so is Harrison Ford. You think he gives two shits about your nerd culture beyond a nice paycheck? Nerd culture is literally defined by people shoving handfuls of money to whoever is willing to indulge their obsessions whether they care about their self-defined social group or not. That said, maybe instead of writing an incredibly long essay on a point that has been hammered to death (yeah I know no one has learned their lesson so us good guys gotta keep shouting!) that Mr. Blesinzski is definitely not going to read and implying he’s a sexist asshole and making him super defensive, it might be worth a try nudging him until he realizes that maybe he’s being inadvertently sexist without realizing it? Maybe his gut reaction is that Olivia Munn sucks and is untrustworthy and he isn’t actually aware of the cultural forces that subconciously shapes his perception of her? I mean dudes married to someone who has almost definitely been called a fake geek girl before because of how attractive she is, it’s worth a try.

  • FriedSteakEater

    While I definitely get how lots of girls are excluded from geek culture, I honestly have to wonder whether that's the real reason why Olivia Munn is getting this much hate. She has always come across to me as an arrogant, entitled, highly unlikable person. There are a number of instances where I've heard talking quite scornfully about men's penises….. small guys, uncircumcized guys being gross to have sex with, etc.

    Making disparaging comments about people's bodies in public? I mean come on, apart from Donald Trump, who the hell does that? I don't have a penis, but I know how uncomfortable I feel whenever I hear guys criticizing women's looks all the time. I suspect that her derisive attitude may be what these geekboys are actually reacting to. They feel insecure and intimidated when they hear an attractive woman talking like that, but they're too ashamed to express it. So instead they lash out by calling her a "fake geek girl"