I’m a 34 year old male. I’ve never kissed, sex, relationship, etc… I don’t mind discussing this with people I know. I feel like because I’m too open about my situation people think I’m looking for self pity. I don’t really, I just want them to know about my situation so it’s not awkward when it comes up later in time. I’m not embarrassed, but I know that some people look at as a red flag… especially women. So my question is : Is my openness about my situation really a redflag/dealbreaker? I’m not good with secrets. I also think I use it as an excuse when I get the vibe they don’t understand me.
Too Much Information?
The question you’re asking isn’t necessarily the question you think you’re asking, TMI.
I’ve talked a lot about the bullshit shame that men get about virginity and sexual inexperience and how that ties into toxic definitions of masculinity and how experience or inexperience isn’t something to be ashamed of. That being said: much like people who misuse the term sex-positive means (or misunderstand what it means) ((Also, Captain Awkward is awesome and everyone should read her columns)) there’s a difference between not being ashamed and inappropriate sharing.
See, one of the things that we look for in friends and partners is emotional and social intelligence – whether they understand social rules, know when it’s appropriate to discuss things and when it isn’t and – critically – what information people don’t necessarily need to know. People who don’t conform to the expected social rules make us uncomfortable; sometimes it’s simply a matter of informing us of things that we don’t want to know, other times it’s a question of “if they don’t get this rule, what other, more important rules do they not get?” So when you’re sharing incredibly personal things about yourself – such as being an older virgin – the question isn’t always about what you’re sharing but when.
If you’re just blurting this information out during the “getting to know you” phase of a date or interacting with your co-workers… well, that’s generally not the right time. You’re telling people far more about yourself than they want to know, never mind need to, and usually at a time when it’s not socially appropriate. If you’re talking about sex or past relationships, that’s one thing. If you’re just dropping this truth-bomb in the middle of a conversation, a “Just FYI, I’ve never had someone else touch my penis. So about them deflated balls…”, well that’s just going to be weird.
There’s also the question of how much of this you’re sharing. Not everyone needs to get the full disclosure about your sexual history (or lack thereof). You’re not giving a deposition, you’re having a conversation. You can just leave it as “yeah, I haven’t dated much” or “I’ve never had a serious girlfriend/boyfriend”; most of the time that’s all anyone wants to know. If they want to know more, they’ll ask and then you can go into more detail. When and if someone should know more – such as when you’re about to get busy – then you can tell them more. But even then, a simple “just so you know, I’ve never done this before,” tends to work better than a sudden and unexpected download about the hows and whys of your sexual history.
And as always: how you talk about it is important. People will follow your lead when you talk about yourself. If you’re revealing that you’re inexperienced like it’s a giant flaw, then people will respond like it’s a giant personal flaw. If you roll it out like it’s no big deal, it’s just part of who you are, then they’ll treat it like it’s no big deal. And if they do get weird about it… well that tells you a lot about them, doesn’t it? If someone sees your experience or lack thereof as a deal-breaker, then that’s their problem and they’ve just self-selected as someone you wouldn’t want to date anyway.
Hi Dr. NerdLove,
I’d love it if you could shed some light on my situation, you always make sense and I appreciate how much you take lots of angles and even a meta-perspective into account usually. I’m a young woman in my mid twenties. I have a fulfilling life: lots of hobbies and interests, a good career, I’m always on the lookout to travel, I have moved to different cities because of studies/jobs a lot while maintaining close relationships with my family and friends, I love to learn and think about new stuff all the time. I’m a bit of a free spirit and I identify as polyamourous. (I can cite some passages from “the ethical slut” and other literature on the subject by heart and have internalized and lived by its values). I’ve had an open relationship in the past, where I had one “boyfriend” and 1-2 “mini-relationships”. My boyfriend had the occasional “extra-curricular activity”. It worked for us that way, things ended a year ago for reasons that had nothing to do with being open/poly.
Now “the problem”: a few months ago I met a guy who is a few years younger and we hit it off right away: we love talking about the same topics, we both love to travel, we have heaps of fun together, we just vibe very well. One drunk night we landed it bed together and, you can guess it, had sex. A week later, I discovered that I took his virginity that night, without knowing it at the time of the act. We talked about how I felt bad because it wouldn’t have happened like that if I had known that beforehand. He said he had no regrets and didn’t want to say anything because he thought it wouldn’t have happened otherwise. (He has a point there, but I still feel taken advantage of and like I took advantage of him at the same time as well). We then had the “what are we talk”. It was clear to him from the get-go that I am poly and that we could build a loving friendship but without being exclusive. He understood, asked the right questions, we talked about “the rules”. Everything is still going fantastic in the 2 months we’ve been together now. We still vibe well, enjoy our time together (even though we live 100 miles apart), talk about feelings/issues, he buys me gifts, we do fun trips, he introduced me to his friends and family (I didn’t introduce him to family because that’s not something I do). Even though I am his first girlfriend, he just gets everything right about communication etc., which just proves again what a great human being he is.
And that is my “problem”: it is going so well, that I am confused. He makes me want all those mundane, typical societal things I’ve looked down on for so long: suddenly I’d like to settle in something typical and exclusive and couple-y – even though that is in direct conflict with everything I have believed in and stood for in the past and have defended with reason and fire against nay-sayers about open relationships.
Please help:
– should I go against my nature and try being exclusive? How do I even bring that up, after it took a lot of conversation to explain polygamy to him in the first place? Is he even going to want monogamy, perhaps he likes me that much because of my poly-nature?
– will it affect our relationship for the worse? maybe it goes so well because we only see each other sporadically (because of the distance)?
– sometimes I feel like I am using him because I am older and more experienced in the sexual and relationship department – any thoughts on that? Is being poly with someone like that even fair? Can he really make a good estimation on the topic if he never had a girlfriend before?
Please help – suddenly everything I was so sure of isn’t that sure anymore. My thoughts need some structure.
Thanks in advance!!
Cheerfully Confused
I think you’re making things more complicated than they need to be, CC.
Here’s the wonderful thing about people: they’re complicated and complex. We lay down these rules and labels, many of which are absolutely arbitrary, and then freak out when we realize that they’re not perfectly universal. We grow and change and find people who push us out of our comfort zones and into worlds that we never thought would apply to us and then we get scared because suddenly everything is different. The problem is when we tense up and try to force things into ill-fitting labels and rules instead of just going with the flow and seeing where things take us.
Right now you’ve got a boyfriend who’s making you think all kinds of thoughts that are contrary to how you’ve defined yourself. You’ve always been poly and now you’re thinking about being exclusive… ok, and? You’re allowed to try different relationship formats as long as your partner or partners are down with it. Maybe you’re in a more monogamous period of your life. Maybe this particular relationship with this particular guy is just an exception to your general rules. Or maybe this is just a temporary thing and it will pass as your relationship grows and matures. The key is to not freak out about it. This doesn’t mean that you were wrong to be poly or that there’s something more “correct” about monogamy… it just means this is where you are right now. If you’re down with giving exclusivity a shot, then hell, go for it. You and your partner or partners have the right to set the rules of your relationship as you see fit.
(That being said, experimenting with exclusivity for the first time in a long-distance relationship makes an already difficult relationship even more difficult, so be prepared.)
It’s admirable that you’re concerned about using him or leveraging his inexperience against him, and that’s a sign that you’re a good, ethical and caring lover. Users and abusers don’t concern themselves with such questions. You should keep in mind that no relationship is going to be perfectly balanced and egalitarian. There’s always going to be one partner who has more experience than the other. Nobody is going to have the exact same history or experiences as their lovers; that’s just how the world is. The key is not using that differential as a weapon, and believe me, the less-experienced partner is just as capable of wielding that whip as the more experienced one. Don’t assume that just because he hasn’t seen or done as much as you have that he’s incapable of making decisions for himself. He’s a big boy and he’s perfectly qualified to decide what sort of relationship he wants to try.
The way that you make things work – as is true in every relationship – is communication, communication, communication. As I’m always telling people, the answers to most relationship difficulties is to use your words. Every relationship is an ongoing conversation, after all.
Case in point: the poly vs. monogamy question You’ve talked about being poly before and what it means, so now talk about monogamy. Explain how you’re feeling and ask how he feels about it. If you’re both into the idea, then have a discussion about how you both see it working and what the rules should be. Perhaps you would want to treat this as a timed trial – see how monogamy works for a couple months and then revisit the question. Perhaps you’d want to try a semi-monogamous commitment; some activities such as penetrative sex are off the table but other things are permitted.
Just don’t spend the emotional and mental bandwidth looking for reasons why things are about to go wrong. The worst thing you can do in a happy relationship is waste it waiting for the other shoe to drop. When you’re borrowing trouble from the future, you make it impossible to enjoy the now.
Keep those lines of communication open with your guy and don’t sweat the labels. Your relationship can be whatever you two decide it is.
Good luck.
To TMI – I think perhaps another reason why women don't necessarily react well may be the flip side of the coin to men being shamed for lack of experience – and that is women being shamed for being assertive or taking the lead in a sexual situation. As a result there are a lot of women who do get a bit uncomfortable with less experienced men, because of a perceived pressure and possible shame regarding what it means to take the lead.
So when DNL talks about not making heavier declarations about a lack of experience, that also works to alleviate the pressure a woman might be feeling in regards to being the experienced one (and any loaded implications that might bring up).
Yet, from the experience of similar men I also know that many women do not like it when a man withholds information about his lack of experience either. They think they have been lied to or don't want to have to do the job of helping him get romantic and sexual catch-up. Its a lose-lose situation for the inexperienced partner. The advantage is to those that start early always.
I'm not sure how your last two sentences follow from your first two sentences.
I think his point is that women will not ever sleep with an inexperienced man. So the inexperienced man must therefore lie. But since women don't like liars, they will get upset with you for lying. So you can't lie to them. Which means you cannot ever sleep with them.
It's basically another way for him to point out that the only way he could possibly have sexual success is to go back in time.
Which, among other things, raises the question of how the experienced men became experienced. Did they use voodoo?
They got experience by combination of being more desirable at early age and luck in finding partners.
So does this mean that, at the moments in time when these men were losing their virginity, the women they were sleeping with were OK with sleeping with an inexperienced man?
No it means that back in the past when they were all in highschool everyone was at the exact same experience level, so virgins lost their virginity to virgins only. Because no one ever has sex with virgins. You aren't paying attention!!
Here's the thing, there's no point approaching this with logic because even if we prove that virgins and non-virgins sleep together all the time, that's not what Lee wants. He doesn't want to be with someone more experienced than him (though I bet he'd have no issue being more experienced than someone else – gender norms play in a big way with his desires with this one). Which makes it a lot harder for him to find someone at his age. But it's his choice. He doesn't have to make it this hard for himself, but since he refuses to be in a situation where a woman might have more experience to him he does. Which is too bad really, not for anyone else, just for him. And Lee, since it feels weird talking about you and not to you, and I've been critiqued for doing that before too, I just want to say I really really really wish you could get over the experience thing because it would help your situation out SO much.
I am well aware that virgins sleep with non-virgins all the times. I am also aware that the chances are I'm going to end up with a woman who is much more experience than me both romantically and sexually. Its just that the teaching fantasy, where the experienced party guides and initiates the inexperienced party, is really, unsexy to me. I want to learn by my own work and effort, not by being told what to do.
So just to clarify, you find it a major turnoff to imagine your partner telling you what she likes/dislikes?
To spice up the ongoing Lee metathread:
-I’ll admit a personal attraction to high schoolish exploration fantasies. I’m guessing they’re not horribly uncommon in guys who didn’t get to do much actual exploration back then. (And I say this as someone aware that even if I found someone with the requisite mindset and lack of experience, my own experience would have to be magically undone to fully realize these fantasies.) Lee sounds similar.
-The word “fun” seems like a case where it’s the first word that comes to mind instead of being the best one for the job. It’s a little midlife crisisy, but I’m hearing someone who always played it safe, only to find out that “safe” is unexceptional and kinda boring. More accurate words might be “dashing” and “sexy” and most importantly “exciting”.
Although that doesn’t change the major question everyone is asking him. Specifically, what makes him exciting guy who exciting girl will want to be with, instead of continuing to bill himself as safe guy.
I consider myself a fun and exciting guy because I've done many interesting things in my life. I lived a year in Japan, travelled the country and the world, achieved more in ten years of my career than many people do in a lifetime of working, I dance, and have cultivated tastes. Many people in real life think I'm funny. Most people do seem at least somewhat impressed about what I've done. What I'm not is wild or flashy.
Lee, none of that makes you "fun" as in something that might make you a fun sexual, possibly romantic, partner. Are you GGG? Are the type of person who would be a joyful, caring sex partner? Are you the type that is going to be more of a pleasure than a chore to be emotionally involved with? Are you open and nonjudgmental of your partner's desires? And above all, if you have those qualities, can you communicate them?
So when asked what makes you fun and exciting, your response involves past accomplishments. Notably including work accomplishments.
That’s not only not exciting. (Hint: the really exciting people focus on what they’re doing to make their day to day lives more exciting.) It also has more than a whiff of “I’ve done these things, I can check them off as done”, which is the exact same attitude you complain about when it comes to sexual adventurousness.
There’s also the bit where focusing on career accomplishments is very much billing yourself as settle down guy, but other people have already repeatedly mentioned the two main takeaways; making yourself attractive to what you’re attracted to, and being aware what’s practically available out there in the real world.
This is a great comment. That is all.
Excellent points.
Lee, think of it this way, are any of those qualities things that you would consider "fun" in a casual partner? Are any of them at all related to the type of relationship you want?
This is really insightful!
I bet it would help Lee to see how other people describe what makes them fun and exciting – especially in ways that don't conform to stereotypes.
For example, I am fun and exciting because I am endlessly curious about the world around me. I always have a new project or a book I love or an interesting research study to talk about, and there are few things I love more than hearing about what excites the person I'm talking to. I'm a pretty low-key person – I prefer a quiet meal to a noisy club – but I love to make everyday experiences into an adventure. Whether that's playing an impromptu game of Iron Chef in the supermarket or seeing who can try on the most ridiculous outfit, hanging out with me is playful, relaxed, and creative.
(If I were trying to attract sex partners, I'd add something a bit more explicit about how those qualities carry over into the bedroom!)
Hmm . . . okay, well I'm quite funny and outgoing so I know people enjoy my energy. I've been told a lot that what people love about me is my passion. I also really work hard to seek out people in a group setting who might be feeling shy or uncomfortable and bring them into the group and make sure they have a good time (having once been such a person myself). I'm also ridiculously fascinated by people, and I honestly find something interesting to talk about with pretty much everyone. Other people's lives fascinate me.
That being said I'm at my happiest in one on one situations, and have therefore been able to establish some really close connections with people. I wear my heart on my sleeve and sometimes that makes things tough for me, that goes against what society approves of (I've probably cried in every single restaurant in the city by now). But it means that I lead by example and by being so honest emotionally and generally others tend to open up a lot too.
I support others in their efforts, I go see their shows, go to their book launches, housewarming parties etc. I buy them little gifts etc just because . . . and generally I just love being around people which I think in turn rubs off positively on others. I don't do anything particularly unique romantically, but I do appeal to a certain kind of guy (not all guys that's for sure, I have opinions and talk A LOT – that can be annoying for sure, and is something I am continuously working on).
Wow. I've been having a pretty negative week this week and to just list my positive qualities like this isn't easy, but it really actually was a good exercise for me to do above and beyond just answering kleenestar's question 🙂 . So thanks for asking it!
I like this! I am fun and exciting because when I care about something, I throw myself into it with sometimes reckless abandon, studying and practicing and researching. I care about a lot of things, from sports to current events to books to TV to hobbies, and I engage with them all deeply.
I like trying new things, and this comes out especially in two areas: food, where I'm always experimenting in the kitchen, inventing recipes and trying increasingly challenging techniques; and crafts, where I tend to pick up and try things like jewelry-making, knitting, woodworking, sewing, papercrafting, and the like.
I'm happiest when I'm in the stage where everything is new and interesting, and a lot of my interests don't stay with me for long, but some do, and there's always something new waiting for me to find it.
I care about people, whether they're people I know well or people I just run into, and it makes me genuinely happy to make other people happy, so I always make a point of being bright and cheerful to people I bump into, from the baggers at the grocery store, to upper management at my company, to random people at my church. I give a lot to charity, because I can and because it matters to me, and I put my money where my environmental mouth is with regards to installing solar panels and driving a hybrid.
OK, so let's do this as a contrast. On the one hand, I have a successful career, participate in the community, take dance classes and know enough about coffee to annoy hipsters.
Now, why I'm actually fun to be around: I'm still excited by things. I'm not afraid to get enthusiastic and geek out about the new DC TV show or obscure things like a Red Elvises concert, a Devil's Carnival shadowcast show or a belly dance. . .concert, I guess you would call it.
I don't believe in cynicism or irony. If I love something, you will know it and I'm not going to pretend its a guilty secret or that I should be ashamed of liking crap. If its crap and I like it, I have no problem standing up for both of these things. I'm not afraid to own my choices in life, whatever they may be. I'm not into false humility, false honor or false modesty but I'm also not into boasting for its own sake.
I go to cool places like the Atomic Testing Museum, ghost towns, Mad Max camping events, even a lot in the middle of the desert surrounded by shipping containers and full of military and government vehicles from the past 50 years. I do a lot of this with my cast, a group of friends that I hang out with, support and provide the resources to learn and practice the things that they think are cool.
I have a bunch of hobbies that take up my time but I find ways to incorporate the others things I want to do into them and make sure to leave myself a few days of free time each week for fun stuff that doesn't take a long term commitment. Also, I will run you over in a game of laser tag and I really need to go to the planetarium sometime soon.
All of that means that I really value my quiet, one on one time. I love being able to geek out with someone over shared interests. I find people fascinating and I love listening to their life stories. I love getting up on Sunday morning, making a pot of tea and sitting on the porch with it while I read or curling up with someone late at night to watch old Twilight Zone and Outer Limits episodes.
Good idea kleenestar!
I am fun because I am great at establishing trust and conveying that I am not judgmental about personal flaws, foibles, awkwardness, vulnerabilities, etc.. As long as the quirks harm no one else, people know they can trust me not to judge. This allows people to let down their guard and relax around me, which is critical to fun. I also pay close attention to nonverbal cues to detect the comfort level of those around me and make suggestions to make sure everyone is having a good time and am willing to change up plans if someone does not want to participate in whatever. I also tend to be very strict about keeping the atmosphere around me open and supportive, so brook no tolerance for shaming or belittling behavior. I may be nonjudgmental, but I am not going to allow cruelty around me. This contributes to further relaxation in the people around me because it feels safe.
For excitement, I am always up for something new and willing to suggest new ideas, but not so wedded to my own desires that I will steamroll someone into doing something they do not want to. I will try pretty much everything at least three times (need 3 data points to define a trend)….except for stopping malaria medications to see what malaria feels like (one time was enough for that!). So people know that if they want company trying something out, they have a taker. I am also good at making boring situations less boring through coming up with random conversation topics or making up games to pass time.
Hm, this one might be a little tricky, but I'll give it a shot.
In meatspace, the best thing I can think of as an example of me demonstrating a fun side is my sense of humour. I don't necessarily mean in the sense of cracking jokes all the time. I do make the occasional witty comment, but the real defining part of my sense of humour is that I can laugh at pretty much anything that's meant to be funny. Whether it's slapstick that would be at home in a Road Runner cartoon, some incredibly clever wordplay, or even just something completely stupid, if it's meant to be funny, odds are I'll be laughing.
Perhaps I will have more to say after dinner.
This is a little tricky for me too – exciting isn't necessarily the first word I'd use to describe myself. But I think I have some fun, exciting traits.
Although I'm an introvert, I don't mind loud, bustling environments. I like dancing at crowded clubs. I like sitting at home and reading next to someone while eating breakfast. I like a lot of things in between the extremes. I'm super curious and love learning new things. I tend to have intense passions that jump around from project to project. This can be hard for people to keep up with, but also means that there's a good chance I'll eventually zero in on someone's favorite topic or hobby, and when I do I'm generally an enthusiastic student/mentee/audience member. I'm generally pretty flexible. I don't get especially upset about being lost or off schedule or uncomfortable, and I'm just fine staying up a bit too late if something interesting makes it seem compelling. If you add all those things together, I'm not generally the leader of the crowd, but I make a fun sidekick.
I've also invested a lot of effort in finding interesting people and things and places in a community where such things seem to be a little limited at least on the face of things, which makes me a good tour guide and adviser about secretly awesome things other people haven't heard about yet.
I think "exciting v. safe" is a false dichotomy in this context, and I will share why.
Presenting oneself as "safe" as well as "exciting" can make the "exciting" thing – whatever the thing happens to be – worth the inherent risk to a prospective partner.
An example off the top of my head – there is a dude currently in my life who took great care, while talking about his downhill skiing & snowboarding & drag-racing exploits (I know!) to also talk, in a modest way, about his career accomplishments and efforts to accumulate assets for retirement.
Reading between the lines, what that tells me as a prospective activity partner who might be wary of the risk involved in running down a mountain with this dude is that if I *do* decide to hang out of a ski-lift and photograph him accomplishing some aerial doom-risking feat, he is both able and willing (that generosity thing again) to have me air-lifted to the hospital should I, in my characteristically semi-klutzy fashion, fall out of the aforementioned ski-lift and injure myself sufficiently to require that level of medical attention, LOL.
Translated: as a prospective partner, he's saying in effect "You know this adrenaline-generating risk I'm asking you to take? I am willing to share the physical/emotional cost of helping you through it should something go wrong."
That – to me, and I wouldn't imagine I'm the only one – is a very attractive (there's that word again!) attitude to have. Especially if you're someone trying to figure out how to encourage others – prospective partners – to take physical & emotional risks with you.
And yes, of course that works the other way around if you switch genders (and appreciate that everyone defines "risk" differently).
To borrow a phrase already offered in the thread, I too am someone who might self-describe as having "cultured tastes" (if I weren't, as a woman, then culturally at greater risk of being accused of being "immodest").
To many men, that reads, out there baldly by itself, as "she's boring" or "she's snobbish" or "I won't accept an invitation from her to one of those 'events' she likes because if I don't understand it she'll ridicule me/disapprove of me."
But if I take the time to find out what interests the dude, and find out what theatre or dance presentation or concert and/or audience participation thing is incorporating that interest?
I have yet to receive an invitation refusal, and I've never had a post-event evaluation even as mildly disapproving as "Men – it was okay."
(I have a tendency to choose enthusiastic, intellectually curious, non-judgmental dudes … but that's a … whole different (though related!) topic as well.)
As a result, everybody always has a great time.
Create whatever analogy you will out of the anecdotes.
🙂
I think people forget that someone who is not safe is not exciting, they are scary. Exciting and safe go hand in hand. There has to be a level of trust and assurance before someone is willing to do something physically and/or emotionally risky with someone.
"There has to be a level of trust and assurance before someone is willing to do something physically and/or emotionally risky with someone. "
My TL/DR-ness bows respectfully to your conciseness.
🙂
Somewhat. Using porno as a reference, what I find to be a major turnoff is what can be seen as a teacher-student initiation into sex. Some people really like the idea of getting an introduction from a more experienced partner, what could be called the Mrs.Robinson/MILF fantasy experience. I do not. Part of this is because of traditional gender expectations and another is because I prefer a more equitable relationship. Teacher-student is not equitable.
I also admit that finding out what turns somebody on by discovery is more exciting than being told directly what to do. At least its more exciting in my fantasy life. Reality might be different.
Using porno as a reference And there it is! In real life, the journey of discovery with a new partner very rarely has this dynamic. Porn films that play to this are usually specifically catering to that particular fantasy. In real life, it's a new experience learning what the other person likes regardless of how many previous partners you've had.
I hope that if you do find a partner, you get over the idea that using your words in the bedroom is unsexy. It is so, so sexy, and avoids a great deal of the awkward ouch, hey what are you doing, watch where you're putting that thing, ahahaha no kind of sex.
"Using porno as a reference,"
W…why would you do that?
I mean, after all, even in the porn without that, there's someone telling them what to do.
Never use porn as a reference.
/adds to "Rules for Life"
I read BiSian saying downthread that "Make Love, Not Porn" is apparently an actual, tangible thing. One that people can order and … read? View?
Talk about assuming (I know!) that something is "something everybody knows".
It's a website. I think they were going to make a video series of actual people having actual sex, but I don't know if they ever got the funds.
Okay aside from everything else that people have said to this rather shocking and telling comment, here we go getting a little TMI:
I was a virgin much later on into life. When I first started getting physical with someone (not even sex necessarily) he was quite pleased and quite surprised that I knew what I wanted. My very first heavy heavy petting session resulted in me having an orgasm. How? I spent a long time being single. So I spent a long time getting to know myself very well as it were.
Basically my point is, it is very possible that even if you meet a virgin she'll still know what gets her off because she's been getting herself off for years. She'll already know what turns her on. It's starting to sound more and more like you want some young teenage virgin who's never even touched herself. Some sweet thing in a white shift who blushes to look at you and has never ever felt sexual attraction or sexual feelings in her life before.
Lee, for your own sake, I really really really hope you get over this. It's preventing you from engaging with real women and having all the sex you actually want. Plus it sounds quite counter to "fun". It sounds controlling, it sounds dull, and it does of course sound quite misogynistic.
This. I had a similar experience to you in that I was also able to show and tell what I wanted even with my very first partner. I had my first sexual experience at age 19, but I've known how to get myself off since I was 14. It's funny, many people just automatically assume that all men have been masturbating since the moment they hit puberty, yet they're shocked to discover that there are women who have been doing the exact same thing.
What everyone's said–porn is a terrible reference for what this really looks like.
Off the top of my head, Erika Moen's Oh Joy Sex Toy blog is quite good for showing what enthusiatic consent and sexytimes looks like. Plus diverse body types! NSFW
Also, this might be a good topic for the forum–people can give scripts or descriptions of their experiences.
Also, I remember that Make Love, Not Porn was excellent for debunking porno myths about sex. Not sure if the site's updated in a while though
" I want to learn by my own work and effort, not by being told what to do."
Yeah, what BiSan said. Pretty sure that good sex isn't something that you do by yourself with work and effort so much as it's about communication and listening to what your partner likes. To be perfectly honest, even a woman with little to know experience will probably still have some opinions about what you should and shouldn't do that she'll find sexy.
How exactly can someone have sex with someone else in such a way that both parties enjoy it without each of them telling the other what to do to some degree?
Hell, even if it's just "up a bit, left a bit". You can gauge whether a partner is enjoying it to a certain extent by their reactions, but yeah, use your words people.
(h/t the good Captain)
The thing that was bugging me about the thread up to this point was that, despite a couple of "in my experience"s that felt tacked on, Lee was implying that what he describes is something that applies not just to him but to all male virgins over a certain age. It was as if he was unwilling to believe that situations outside of what he has experienced so far can actually happen to people in his situation.
The stuff that he's been saying since then has improved on this front.
Yup!
There's no way for you to win! You, Lee, are uniquely disadvantaged by the catch-22 of women's sexual expectations! There is literally no point in trying anything else because you are utterly doomed to be celibate for the rest of your life!
In case it's not very clear to those reading along, I am being sarcastic.
It certainly feels that way most of the time.
Well based on my experience talking to you, you're going to ignore any reassurances, discussion of how women are all different and their reactions will depend on X different factors, or any suggestions that this is just your jerk brain talking to you and it's not reality. So I'm gonna save myself the typing.
Instead, a question: What if you are right? What if you never get the romantic/sexual life that you want?
BTW, I can answer that question. I answered it for myself when I was younger and had zero experience–like the LW. I think that answering it forced me to take a hard look at myself and my priorities. YMMV
Life my life the best I can tell I die.
So Lee, how come you didn't reply to my questions in the other thread asking you to be clear about what you want?
My feeling is that being really clear about what I want isn't going to work out for me. My previous attempts to be forward about what I want haven't worked out well.
Maybe it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it.
And, possibly, to whom.
Is that because people have reacted badly or because they have pointed out that your requirements are contradictory/impossible? By the way, if those are the only standards you can accept then I'm not asking you to consider changing because I realise that you may not be able to get past that psychological block. Just be aware that you will not ever find someone, and it's not because the world is terribly unfair or that women are evil. It's because what you want doesn't exist.
Its because of semi-bad or bad reactions. From past experience, going there to early tends to end things fast. Also, according to a female friend of mine, my sexual flirting tends to be cynical and edgy rather than fun and flirtatious. Not creepy but not suave either.
I seem to recall you implied that on your online dating profiles you have marketed yourself as looking for a long-term romantic partner when it sounds as though you are actually looking for FWB. Perhaps you need to change up your profiles? There are plenty of women looking for the same thing (you're from NY, yes?) but if you're marketing yourself as one thing and then telling them you're the other you aren't going to get that second date.
I have to agree with emberweasel. Remove long term relationship from your dating profile and do not message women who have it in theirs. You are pitching yourself to an audience that does not want what you want. That never ends well.
“going there to early tends to end things fast.”
“Also, according to a female friend of mine, my sexual flirting tends to be cynical and edgy rather than fun and flirtatious.”
To which I’d reiterate – irrespective of how frequently or resolutely you appear to ignore it (or perhaps just the messenger) – then it’s not what you say but how you say it.
The timing = “too early”, by your own admission.
The tone = “cynical and edgy”, to an audience (if you will) that ostensibly prefers “fun and flirtatious”.
If nothing else, failing to take the time to find an audience (again, if you will) who prefers “cynical and edgy” to “fun and flirtatious” when it comes to that topic.
Wasn’t it Einstein who said something rather specific about insanity amounting to repeatedly doing the same thing, the same way … and yet expecting a different result?
One of the things I've noticed about the men who are most "suave" (since by implication you seem to describe that as a desirable quality) is that they are friendly and gracious when people (even women! Imagine!) take the time to help them over some shortcoming … self-perceived, other-perceived, or both. It speaks of a generous spirit, which is an attractive interpersonal quality in and to many people.
By contrast, there are several other people here who have referenced your tendency to describe the give-and-take of intimacy as something you feel you are all but owed, from people in whom you're interested, but for whatever reason, you don't make the effort to present yourself — either to them or to people willing to help you — as someone who's willing to offer the same back to them.
I wonder if you're willing to consider the extent to which that can affect your "success" in this area.
A couple of possible ways around that seem to be waiting for someone who simply doesn't ask about your past or, alternately, being able to present yourself as someone who can be a fun romantic partner in his own right rather than someone who's using his partner as a form of catch up.
Or, I suppose there's the option to complain endlessly and repetitively on the internet…
I have had relationships/gone to bed with men who I believe had had little experience. They made no mention of it and I didn't ask, I didn't feel lied to about them withholding information, why would I, I didn't give them a blow by blow account of every person I'd ever gone to bed with. Other than talking about STIs or kinks (if you're kinky) I really don't think anyone is obliged to disclose their sexual past or lack thereof.
I could be wrong, other people may think they have to help someone "get romantic and sexual catch-up" but I really think you're projecting. Certainly that was something that has never crossed my mind. Sex is something you explore with each new partner, not a list of items that you cross off, never to try again. I'm really not sure how you'd play romantic catch-up to be honest but again, not exactly limited scenarios that you cross off, never to do again. Just because someone got roses from her last boyfriend doesn't mean she wouldn't like them from her next boyfriend as well.
That might be your experience but isn't my experience yet. Its a reasonable concern based on my experience. In my one relationship, I wanted to see my girlfriend with greater frequency than she wanted to see me and I wanted the physical aspects sooner than she did, which was never. My subsequent experience is that much better.
I don't see how your experience with your ex relates to this topic. Seriously, how does your ex not wanting sex relate to the idea that women don't want sex with inexperienced men?
Very few women will want to "do the job" of "helping you get romantic and sexual catch-up." Can you hear what a chore that sounds like? Can you see how it's entirely centered on you and your needs? For that matter, can you hear how this framing implies your partner couldn't possibly enjoy being romantic or sexual with you? No wonder you think you have to be perfect (or pay the mortgage) to have sex. Who would want to have the kind of sex you describe?
A woman who wants to be in a short-term, no-commitment romantic and sexual relationship with you will not be interested in treating sex like a job or being primarily oriented to helping you. Until you can imagine what SHE would get out of it – not how she can be some magical sex charity fairy who helps you without getting anything in return – you're going to keep sending the message that sex with you would be a bore, a burden, and a chore.
I have a lot of sympathy with the fact that Lee had just the one partner who didn't want sex – I can see how that would screw a person up. However, I have been in a relationship with a man who systematically isolated and abused me, and I still manage to treat men as people.
It's interesting, to look at it as a rough gender divide, how a lot of the women on this site talk about how they worry about being judged as not good enough in what they provide as partners, but all you hear from the men is "I want, I want". I know, #NotAllMen, but it's a fairly strong trend.
I think we can miss so much in our lives by clinging to labels. I used to really hate the way the word guacamole sounded. I missed out on YEARS OF AMAZING GUACAMOLE you guys.
Being ethical is important, communicating, caring for the people around you. That is a label I would not want to eschew. But with everything else, you are only missing out if you don't let yourself try something that you actually think you would like, just because it isn't something you "Thought" you would like.
I'm in a relationship now that I never thought I would want, and it has been an anchor this year when we've all been going through so much. But if you'd described it to me with the appropriate labels 2 years ago I would have recoiled. I'm SO glad I just let what worked for all of us work, instead of focusing on what we were going to call it. Does that mean that I'm a different person now? Do I need to change my labels? I don't know, I am just going to enjoy it for as long as I can, and when it is time to change again, we'll talk about it.
I didn't eat cheese (outside of pizza) for years because this one time as a kid I had a bad Kraft single and figured cheese was gross.
Although LW2's letter makes me think more about the cartoonist Erika Moen, who always identified as a lesbian, but eventually fell in love with and married a man. (I can't find the exact comic and I'm a little nervous to search on this comp, but this article has a collection of related ones, so maybe it's in there: http://www.afterellen.com/general-news/81356-comi… )
That said, this stood out to me:
"He makes me want all those mundane, typical societal things I’ve looked down on for so long"
I think THAT's something you need to deal with, whether or not you change the sort of relationship you're in right now. You can eschew certain social norms without looking down on them, but having the mindset that "this kind of relationship is less cool than this other kind of relationship" is bound to make things difficult for you, one way or another.
Totally. I get the LW's reluctance to do things because that is the expected normal thing to do. That's not a good reason to do something.
BUT, it is also not a good reason to NOT do something you want. The idea is to reject social norms as prescriptive behaviors, not to reject them out of hand because they are inferior. Sometimes they are pretty awesome.
I didn't eat spaghetti for years because my mom made it with tomato soup! Turns out, that is not what real spaghetti tastes like. HI five stupid food experiences!
Early on in the marriage, my stepmother made what she called spaghetti–macaroni noodles and ragu. But not with tomato soup. That's even weirder.
Italian food is another one of those things I thought I didn't like until I had actual, good Italian food.
I see your…'unconventional' Italian foodstuffs and raise you my aunt's attempt to make green bean casserole. It went thusly:
Step one: Take three cans of green beans and pour them into baking dish.
Step two: Take two cans of cream of mushroom soup and dump them on top of the green beans in two large blobs.
Step three: Spread half a pound of slivered almonds over the whole assemblage.
Step four: Heat in oven until vaguely warm.
*cries quietly*
Yeah. She…can't cook. At all. Her version of a grilled cheese sandwich is two pieces of toast with some cheese slapped between them and microwaved. All of her family's christmas baking is done by her daughters (mainly the eldest who thankfully didn't inherit her mother's cooking…talents).
On a side note, I'm going to get her an easy bake microwave (the most american invention in existence, by the way) for christmas.
My mom made spaghetti with ketchup. It took eating at a friend's house for me to learn pasta was not a sub for potatoes
I find that a lot of people who get into alternative communities found the experience of finally finding somewhere they can belong and are comfortable to be so amazing that they cannot comprehend how someone would find their community, experience it, and later decide to leave it.
Or even understand how someone could say "yeah, that's cool. Not my thing, though," without being an horrible, close minded, unenlightened person.
Side note: I think I'll start referring to myself as labelfuid for extra irony points.
The people who assume all folks outside their niche are just fools exist, but I find in most communities (at least with significant numbers of members over 30 years old) the people who think EVERYONE should do the community's thing are a minority who are politely tolerated and assumed to eventually calm down.
But the idea that a community member in good standing could decide they want a more mainstream life simply DOES NOT COMPUTE. Since the only reason *they* would leave the community is because of external pressure (and lots of it, because the community has been so good to them), they assume the person leaving is either being bullied or caving to The Man.
Honestly, that sounds like my mom's opinion about her church. All of the problems my siblings face are because they didn't stay there, and clearly they know they should be and want to be, but they're just being stubborn.
I love your food metaphors! But also now I'm hungry 🙁
"You can eschew certain social norms without looking down on them, but having the mindset that "this kind of relationship is less cool than this other kind of relationship" is bound to make things difficult for you, one way or another."
Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth. That was the only part of LW2's entry I felt a little weird about. Like, it sounded like part of the reason she's hesitant to even discuss monogamy is because she already has a bit of a personal bias against it, and sees it (or used to see it I guess) as somehow lesser.
And kudos for bringing up Erika Moen! One of my fave web comic writers. For anyone who's interested, the web comic being referred to is called 'DAR' and its about (among many other things) the trajectory of Erika's sexuality in terms of identifying as bisexual, then lesbian, then ultimately self-identifying as queer as she determined it was the best way to describe her fluid sexuality. It was actually the comic that introduced me to the concept of sexuality being a rich and full spectrum, and not just a binary state, something for which I'm forever grateful. Really good read and pretty damn funny too, highly recommended.
Wow, excellent advice to LW1!
It speaks so much to my own experience. Especially:
"You can just leave it as “yeah, I haven’t dated much” or “I’ve never had a serious girlfriend/boyfriend”; most of the time that’s all anyone wants to know. If they want to know more, they’ll ask and then you can go into more detail."
I was at a point in my life post-depression when I tried a new approach to things. I decided I was going to become shameless, never compare myself to others and not be afraid of anything.
I figured, what if I find a suitable place to drop the bomb that I'm a 30 year old guy who's never been in a relationship? BUT I'd just drop it casually and confidently like it's no big deal. I bet they haven't seen that before!
Sure enough, it happened in a bar with some girls from work I didn't know so well, and it blew their minds. I look back at it as one of the best nights out I've ever had. It's like everyone expects a person like that must be enormously anxious, intimidated and ashamed because that's how they felt in their teens, but here you come and trample norms and social preconceptions like you're not aware they even exist
It's hilarious to mess with peoples head like that. You really leave an impact and you're suddenly the most original person in the room.
No, I didn't get to sleep with them (I wasn't even trying to) but it was flattering how people got so invested in me. I was bombarded with questions. Two girls got into an argument where one held the position that I had to sleep with whoever's available as soon as possible, while the other was adamant that it had to be super special.
I didn't say anything but at that time I was siding with girl 1. I wanted my first time to be crappy, cheap and unsatisfying to really drive home the point that my last 10 years had been wasted on completely useless anxiety. Kill off my past self as it were.
I don't even have a point with any of this. Just wanted to vent.
But yeah, I definately think it's possible to be honest about that. I did dodge the V-word as that's a bit TOO articulate. It comes close to talking about your erectile dysfunction or how you feel when being spanked. It's too close for comfort for most people.
“'Just FYI, I’ve never had someone else touch my penis. So about them deflated balls…', well that’s just going to be weird."
This is funny on many levels 😛
CC,
This is why I hate labels. They're great when you're trying to communicate a big idea quickly, not so good when you feel the need to mold yourself to fit them. Do what makes you happy then find the label that fits. Don't throw something out because you feel like you have to live up to some arbitrary standard. Being monogamous isn't better or worse than being poly. You don't get open mindedness or cool rebel points by forcing yourself into (or out of) any label. Even if you did, karma points are a lot less fun than a loving relationship.
"You don't get open mindedness or cool rebel points by forcing yourself into (or out of) any label."
I've met plenty of people who totally award cool rebel points to those who adopt the right outsider label. And there's hell to pay if they ever decide it doesn't apply to them anymore. But absolutely agree "karma points are a lot less fun than a loving relationship."
OK, true, you do get cool rebel points with some people by sticking a bunch of labels on yourself. Those people are shallow.
Yes. I do feel like, while there are definitely people who are naturally more polyamorous, there are some people who try it out, or use that label, because it seems like the cool, open-minded thing to do. It's only the cool thing to do, though, if it's right for that person, and the others involved. As long as you're still respectful of others in non-traditional relationships (the consensual, of-age ones), you can still consider yourself to be cool and open minded. This makes me think of a guy I knew who liked all music as long as it was from an independent label. Which…is kind of a crappy reason to like of it. If you pick the music you like FROM independent label artists, sure, then you're still picking one fits with your own tastes, not picking what is normally taste-based on a "principle".
A friend of mine recently said it very well "my boyfriend's monogamous, so right now I am, too."
Of course I also remember an acquaintance of mine talking about how much better poly people were at relationships because of all the open communication and not having to hide anything. I was kind of dismissed for pointing out that those were good relationship rules in general. Shortly thereafter, her particular house of cards came down in a raging drama storm because various people had been hiding their feelings and/or wants from various other people in order to fit their given labels at the expense of their own happiness. Your sexual preferences have nothing to do with your ability to be a functional human being.
That reflects a general tendency of humans to think that a thing they like is for better/more sophisticated/whatever people. Doesn't matter what it is. You get poly people saying that poly people are better at relationships, you see kinky people saying kinky people are better at sex, you see people with one specific kink say that their kink is "like [other kink], but for people with PhD's."
There's something to that tough, if you're going to do poly right, you need to be an excellent communicator. That doesn't mean poly relationships make people better, but just that people are bad at communication are going to be bad at relationships, but especially bad at poly. Bad communication is something you can sort of get away with in monogamous relationship, but it's a train wreck in any relationship that ventures out of the norm. I also find that people who are into BDSM are also particularly good at understanding consent, not because having that kink makes you naturally inclined towards consent, but because you have to understand consent really well if you're going to be into BDSM.
Well that opens up the whole can of worms of what portion of the poly/BDSM populations are "doing it right". Obviously, if you ask anyone, they'll tell you that they are. My anecdata based on results indicates somewhat less than 100% of self reported "doing it right" people live up to their ideals. Obviously, that's true of any relationship. The point was more that unusual relationship models != more enlightened.
Really? I don't know about poly people but I've found kinky people to be similar to the rest of the population regarding consent (some people are great, some not so great) Although, those who are not so great are usually fairly good at paying lip service to the ideal which makes it difficult at first to tell who is going to be difficult.
Maybe I've just been extremely lucky. I'm casually friends with a couple people in the swinger scene too and party hosts and I've been really impressed at how seriously they take consent and safety. I mean, anyone can call themselves a dom or whatever and not actually take consent seriously, but I find that people who are actually involved in "lifestyle" and kink communities build a reputation pretty quickly and if they are routinely shitty people who communicate poorly and are dishonest with their partners and non-consensual, they don't last long within a community setting.
See, I can't think of one (sex related) community I've been involved in, however tangentially, that didn't have a missing stair, sometimes (maybe even a majority of the times) one of the heads of the group.
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/06/missing-st…
Totally agree, and it seems like he's accepting of the poly thing if either of them do ever want that again. A lot of people say "no sex until monogamy," but I personally say "no non-monogamy until monogamy." Monogamy might just what this couple needs to do for a while to feel safe and secure with each other before venturing out and doing the poly thing. Or not. I know plenty of people who were crazy poly people and then met one person that made them okay with being monogamous.
For LW1: It's always about time and place. There are lots of things that people shouldn't feel ashamed about, but also aren't appropriate to just drop into the middle of a generic conversation: their shitty cheating ex, being bullied to tears in grade school, their recent colonoscopy, diarrhea. It IS TMI, because it is Too Much (Inappropriate and Non-Relevant) Information, not because There Is Something Wrong With You. I'd say don't bring up your sexual past unless it's a direction that the conversation is naturally flowing toward. If you're not certain to what degree of detail you should go into, look to other people to take your cue. If it's a "share gory bit of your sexual exploits" conversation, go whole hog, tell people everything, if it's "oh, I had a boyfriend a few years ago and that's it," keep it to a sentence.
Also, not to say that you're doing this, LW, but be aware that it's not…. uncommon, let's say, for guys to suddenly introduce sexual topics into a conversation as an opener to solicit sex, and in an inappropriate context that puts a lot of women on guard. Similarly, it's not uncommon for less experienced guys to bring up their sexual pasts (or lack thereof) as an opener to pressure women for not having sex with them. Sort of a "Don't you feel bad for me? Won't you touch my penis? Are you going to be like all those cold-hearted bitches who left me hanging??"
Well, yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Re: LW1, I used to be an oversharer and people pointed this out to me in several embarrassing moments (which I won't share – ha, see what I did there, didn't even mean to…).
Anyway, someone close to me recently lost their job and I told the person, "As far as telling other people about it – unless they're already someone in your immediate orbit that you turn to for emotional support, it's none of their damn business."
Not a romantic scenario, but similar rules of thumb apply, I think. Ask yourself *why* you feel the urge to share something that might be "TMI." To get sympathy? To win someone over? Do you think it will help you get closer to the person? It can be tricky, because some of that *can* help you get closer to people, but you have to get to know them a bit and pay attention to social cues. If you've cheated before and they think 100% of all cheaters are the absolute scum of the earth, maybe don't share that, for example.
Also, I tried to reframe the urge to overshare away from, "There's something wrong with me that I have all this emotional baggage; why won't someone listen?" and instead to "Who the hell are they, anyway? Do they really deserve to know these private details about me?" I suppose you can take that too far and build unnecessary emotional walls, but the point is – start thinking of your private business as deserving of respect and discretion, to be shared with audiences who earn the privilege.
LW 2, as an inherently poly person (who has somehow managed to be a serial monogamist for a few years) I would suggest considering the idea that this new found thought pattern might be brought about by new relationship energy and/or lack of other partners. As the relationship moves into a more familiar groove place you may find your "wonderlust" shows up again.
Then again I could be way off base. Just my 2 cents
I kinda thought the same thing. Give this relationship a while and see what happens before you decide to radically change your identity and lifestyle.
LW2, just popping in to say, as a polyamorous person who is married with a house and a dog, that it is totally possible to have all the "mundane, typical societal things" while still being open. My polyamory looks an awful lot like being settled down and couple-y, we just happen to have some close friends with sexy benefits, too. If what you want is monogamy, great, but just remember it's not all or nothing.
I'm 100% on board with what the Doc and others have been saying about not being too confined by labels. One of the beautiful things about a poly approach to relationships is that it leaves enormous flexibility to figure out the rules of your relationship based on what feels right, not what "fits in" to a predefined label. I bet if you talk to your partner, with monogamy or monogamish-ness (we need a noun for that adjective) or whatever brand of poly on the table, you'll be able to find something that works well for both of you. I also like DNL's suggestion of a timed trial, since it's always a good idea to revisit these conversations as you get to know each other better. Good luck, and enjoy your awesome partner!
My question (as someone whose experience with polyamory is strictly entomological) for LW2 would be, when you say you want monogamy, is that about wanting it for you or from your partner? I mean, it's completely one thing to be sick of a tiny crappy little apartment and start wondering what you really ever had against Montclair, anyway, but it's a whole other thing (again, coming from the perspective of knowing only that "poly" means "many" and "amorous" means "fucking something that does not require batteries") to go the next step and say "and I want you to want that too, and that's the only way this relationship is gonna work." I agree with everyone who is saying don't let labels limit you, but at the same time, sometimes naming things helps you understand them, and in this case, I think you really need to start trying to find more specific names for what it is that you are wanting from this relationship right now.
Are the feelings that you are lumping under "monogamy" a desire for more intense contact at this stage of the relationship (are you at the "I want to spend every waking moment with you because you're awesome and I want to bask in your awesomeness and why would I ever want to be out of your presence because everything else on earth is LESS AWESOME THAN YOU because YOU are NEW!!!!" stage of your relationship?) Are you experiencing jealousy? Or is this a thing where you were at the park and there was this little girl there who was playing with a toy dinosaur and then she ran to someone who wasn't *necessarily* a nanny, it *totally* could have been her actual mom, or at least an aunt or something, and gave her this big smile and hug and you just kind of fell apart because aren't children special? Because those are all *very* different things, and (again, married twenty years and his ring is inscribed "you and no other" so I may be completely talking out of my ass here, not that that's ever stopped me before) it seems to me that only one of them is incompatible with polyamory, and – and here I can speak with some authority – *none of those things actually get solved by monogamy*. Getting married doesn't get you kids, having kids gets you kids. It doesn't give you full access to each other all the time (thank Jeebus). And it really, really, really doesn't make you stop being jealous of your partner's attentions. Also, it doesn't get you a 3br split level in New Jersey (although it is understandably easy to confuse/conflate marriage with a 30-year ARM with a large pre-payment penalty). Figure out what it is that you want, then do that.
Cheers and good luck!
Omg, open relationship here, and the number of times I've told people that non-monogamy is not the opposite of seeing each other all the time…is a large number. I'm crazy in love with my boyfriend, and spend pretty much all of my free time with him, we just have sex with other people sometimes. It's easy to conflate monogamy with closeness, especially since we're explicitly told it is so in this culture, but they're very different things.
You I know what’s funny is that I also lost my virginity to someone who didn’t know I was vigor in and I never did tell her she was my first. I certainly would have told her if she asked me but she never did.
Vigor in? Autocorrect, is that you?