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Paging Dr. NerdLove Episode #50 – The Truth Behind “Secret” Seduction Techniques

October 19, 2017 by Dr. NerdLove 129 Comments

Listen: Here                                           Direct Download: Here

Do you want to learn the secret to getting amazing, beautiful women to fall in love with you? You probably hear about these tricks all the time from experts and gurus. And you’re probably thinking “yeah right, this could never work”.

And that’s where you’re right. But not for the reasons you think. Those seduction techniques work alright… but it’s all about who it’s working on and how. This week, we’re going to talk about the short cuts and magic bullets marketed to lonely men and who’s actually doing the seducing.

Show Highlights:

  • What’s the story behind all those affiliate marketing emails?
  • The history of “mind-control” in the seduction community
  • Marketing panic attacks as a tool for seduction
  • Who’s actually seducing whom
  • Why magic feathers and secret seduction techniques are bad for everyone

…and so much more.

Related Links:

Short Cuts and Magic Bullets

The Economics of Sex

Five Secrets To Fix Your Love Life

Leveling Up: How To Get Women To Approach You

No More Magic Feathers: The Secret to Real Self-Improvement


Don’t forget to subscribe and review us on iTunes , Stitcher and on YouTube.

Like the podcast? Consider becoming a Dr. NerdLove patron at Patreon.com/DrNerdLove

Want more dating advice? Check out my books at www.www.doctornerdlove.com/books

How To Use Humor In Your Flirting

November 21, 2016 by Dr. NerdLove 65 Comments

Humor is one of the most attractive traits someone can have. In fact, the idea that women love a man who can make them laugh is an almost universal cliche. But what doesn’t get said is how humor helps increase attraction. After all, you can’t just tell joke after joke and expect to get into somebody’s pants.

Not that folks haven't tried.
“You should see my balloon animal…”

Just as there are many ways to flirt, there are many ways to be funny. Using humor to increase attraction is all about using it correctly and finding the ways of using humor that works with your flirting style.

 

[Read more…]

How To Approach Women (Without Being Creepy)

August 24, 2015 by Dr. NerdLove 1,016 Comments

Something that I see a lot of people struggle with when and how it’s appropriate to approach and hit on women. When you’re relatively socially inexperienced, it can feel like tip-toeing through a minefield; if you don’t know what you’re doing, you often run the risk of being creepy by accident. There’s that constant feeling that you’re just one misplaced emoji away from being exiled to the Island of Unfuckable Boys, there to live out your life in monklike celibacy, forever mourning your stillborn love life.

In reality, it’s not quite as complicated or difficult to not be creepy as people make it seem. And as it turns out, the universe conspired to provide us all with another shining example of what not to do.

 Last week, former Mugglecast podcaster and Feminspire.com co-founder Ben Schoen attempted to proposition Buzzfeed writer Grace Spelman  – first on Twitter,

then he tweeted these at me and they both went unanswered pic.twitter.com/FIL0aPl1SK

— Breakfast Bitch (@GraceSpelman) August 17, 2015

then again on Facebook.

Then he moved to Facebook. I politely told him I was seeing someone and then blocked him on FB & Twitter pic.twitter.com/k84dCJ3OrT — Breakfast Bitch (@GraceSpelman) August 17, 2015

When she rejected him, he – to put it mildly – lost his shit.  

Here is where he started to get angry. He then tweeted these at me: pic.twitter.com/NJDop6VZ1E — Breakfast Bitch (@GraceSpelman) August 17, 2015

Over the course of the week, Schoen’s behavior has actually provided a handy set of examples of the mistakes many people make when approaching women. So with this recent event in mind, allow me to provide you with an all-purpose guide to the right way to approach women – whether in person or online – without being creepy.

When It’s OK To Approach Women (Or: Consider the Social Context)

One of the complaints I hear all the time from men who struggle with dating is that they feel that any attempt to approach women is automatically creepy. They hear the various horror stories about guys being labeled as creepy for trying to hit on women at cons or approaching women they see on the bus or on the train or trying to slide into their DMs and then lament that there are no acceptable ways for men to hit on women any more. Almost every time a woman shares a story about just trying to get through their commute or catch up on their reading during their lunch hour, there’s a host of men complaining about how this isn’t fair to their dicks.

Negging her taste in books ain't the power-move you think it is...
Negging her taste in books ain’t the power-move you think it is…

Ignoring the fact that most people don’t meet their significant others through cold approaching randos on the bus or train, the key to knowing when it’s ok to approach women is to consider the social context of the situation. At any given time, there are generally accepted rules that define what behavior is considered acceptable and appropriate for the situation. The social context of being at church, for example, demands radically different behavior than being at a nightclub.

There are, of course, exceptions.
There are, of course, exceptions.

When your behavior goes against the accepted social context, then you end up making people uncomfortable. You’re incongruent with the location and that can be incredibly creepy to people; it tells others that you either don’t understand the rules that govern what is and isn’t acceptable or you don’t care. Someone who doesn’t care that it’s not appropriate to yank a book out of somebody’s hands or pull the earbuds out of her ears is sending the signal that they may well not worry about little things like “consent” either.

By that same token, there are times and places where the social context says that says that it’s acceptable to approach a stranger and that a person’s presence is a general acceptance of the social contract. These places include:

  • Most bars and clubs
  • Parties
  • Classes
  • Work
  • Meet-ups
  • Online dating sites (This does not include Facebook or Twitter.)

This is, obviously, not an exhaustive list and there are variables that can affect what behavior is and isn’t appropriate; the same behavior that’s appropriate at a club is creepy as hell at work. But learning to navigate the subtleties of these rules is part of developing your social calibration.
And speaking of which:

Consider Your Skill Level

Whenever we talk about times when it’s not appropriate to approach or hit on women, people will inevitably bring up someone they know – either personally or friend-of-a-friend – who broke “the rules” successfully. The fact that “they” did it (for suitably vague definitions of “they”), then clearly it should be open to everyone, no?

Er… no. That’s not how things work.

As I’m always saying, being good with women is a skill and some people are going to be more skilled than others. The fact that Michael Jordan can pull off an astounding dunk doesn’t mean that anyone who plays basketball can; similarly, the fact that somebody was able to pick up a woman while on the bus or walking down the street doesn’t mean that everyone should give it a shot. The more socially calibrated and experienced you are, the more you can pull off; people who’re more socially calibrated are better at reading the social context, picking up on the other person’s signs and knowing how – if necessary – to extract themselves if things go badly. Someone who is socially well-calibrated can get away with more than someone less calibrated because they have a better sense of where the line is and how close they can get without going over.

"I've got a boyfriend." "I've got a goldfish." "What?" "Well, I thought we were talking about things that didn't matter..."
“I’ve got a boyfriend.”
“I’ve got a goldfish.”
“What?”
“Well, I thought we were talking about things that didn’t matter…”

The less experienced you are, the less advisable it is to try to take on riskier1 approaches; the odds are against you and you can end up making yourself seem creepy when you don’t intend to. A 5th level paladin isn’t going to survive going through the Tomb of Horrors and somebody who doesn’t have much social experience is better off sticking to accepted social spaces to approach women. This is one of the areas where Schoen seriously falls down. Pushing and pushing for Spelman to respond to him, switching social media platforms when she wouldn’t respond to him on the previous one? This is someone who’s demonstrating poor social calibration; he’s getting a very obvious brush-off and keeps trying anyway. The almost obsequious fawning in the message on Facebook makes it even more clear that this isn’t going to go anywhere good; sucking up isn’t a good look on anyone.

So how do you gauge what’s likely out of your level? It’s going to be an inexact process at best; it’s not as though grinding in bars gives you 120 XP per hour that culminates with your hitting the cap as a level 80 Pick-Up Artist.

Great! Now you're ready to solo the Playboy Mansion!
Great! Now you’re ready to solo the Playboy Mansion!

As a general rule, the more successes you have – getting working phone numbers, first dates, second dates – the more risks you can reasonably take. If you’re still struggling to get that first date, then you’re better choosing lower-risk, lower-investment approaches like meeting people through your social circle. Just remember: being well-calibrated and socially successful doesn’t mean that you’re guaranteed success; everybody has off days and some people will just not like you no matter what.

While there are obviously no hard and fast classifications, this list should serve as a decent rule of thumb.

Dating 101 – Online dating, warm approaches, meeting friends of friends, parties

Dating 201 – Cold approaches at bars and clubs, some low-key, low-investment daytime approaches (bookstores, coffee shops, comic stores, etc.)

Dating 301 – More advanced daytime approaches (the mall, the gym, grocery stores)

Dating 401 – Street approaches, public transit, etc.

Notice how Facebook and Twitter aren’t on there? There’s a reason for that: it’s a fucking stupid idea.

Don’t Assume A Level Of Intimacy You Don’t Have

One of the hard and fast rules of dating and not being creepy is recognizing that everybody has boundaries and those boundaries are flexible; some people have greater levels of access to us than others because we have different levels of intimacy with them. One of the keys of what makes somebody creepy is very simple: creepers assume a greater level of intimacy than actually exists. A close friend might get away with an impromptu hug or a playful ass-grab; an acquaintance or total stranger who tries to pull the same move would get a surprise visit from the Slap Fairy.

This is why there's no such thing as the "acceptable friendly boob-honk"
This is why there’s no such thing as the “acceptable friendly boob-honk”

People who assume (or try to take) a greater level of intimacy than they actually have are creepy because they’re ignoring your boundaries.

In the case of Ben Schoen’s attempt at wooing of Grace Spelman, he assumed a far greater level of intimacy than actually existed; the only contact they had was that she friended him on Facebook when she was fourteen. For nine years, they had no contact; they never interacted on Facebook or Twitter until he tweeted at her out of the blue. The first message was relatively innocuous, but the ones that followed became weren’t – he was making the kind of jokes-but-not-really that assume a greater level of familiarity between the two than actually existed. Two people who had at least a passing relationship online might get away with tweets like “For my birthday, I want @gracespelman to follow me back”; from a complete stranger, that’s just unsettlingly creepy.

Approaching people you don’t know and have no connection to means that you have to behave accordingly. Tracking them down on social media, randomly texting them (when they didn’t give you their number) or proclaiming your undying devotion for them when you don’t actually know each other are all examples of assuming excess levels of intimacy. So does trying to escalate things physically (demanding a hug, trying to put your arm around someone you’ve just met, etc.) or turning the topic to sex when it’s not wanted or warranted.

Well that escalated quickly...
Well that escalated quickly…

Respecting somebody’s boundaries, on the other hand, is a mark of respect as well as social calibration. It shows you that you value their comfort and respect their social, emotional and physical safety. The guy who shows respect (and let’s be clear: there’s a difference between respect and being a suck-up) is someone who’s going to have far greater success with women. Why? Because women will feel comfortable and secure around them. Not sure if something’s off limits? Ask. It may be a little awkward, but a touch of awkwardness is easy to recover from; creeping somebody out, on the other hand, dries out panties faster than a tumble dryer set to “high”.

One of the things you need to keep in mind: people are able to set their boundaries wherever and whenever they like. It’s not simply a matter of being attractive or unattractive; the hot guy can be creepy as hell while the gaunt, bug-eyed chain-smoker gets ass like a drunk at a livestock auction with a stolen credit card. But even if they do decide that the hotter guy gets permission for greater intimacy, that’s their decision. Insisting that it’s not fair or that you “deserve” equal access is entitled and creepy as hell. In fact, while we’re on the subject…

You Aren’t Entitled To Anything

If you want to make sure you don’t cross the line from “cool” to “creepy,” you need to recognize that women don’t owe you anything. This includes an explanation as to why they rejected you or even a response. This is doubly true if you don’t have any sort of actual social connection to this person. If you’re a complete stranger coming up to them in a bar or messaging them on OKCupid, they have absolutely no obligation to so much as acknowledge that they received your email. Is this rude? Yeah, it can be. But politeness isn’t the same thing as obligation, and insisting that people owe you a smile, a reply or a date implies that you somehow have authority over them and that your wants cancel out their autonomy.

Once again, this is boundary-pushing behavior; by insisting that you are somehow “owed” something, you are saying that the other person does not have the right to decide their own actions or responses. If you already are demanding things of strangers – even something as relatively innocuous as a smile or a “hi” back – you’re establishing a precedent where you expect more of your desires to be reciprocated, regardless of whether the other person is interested or not.

Also, you come across as a child having a tantrum because Mom won't give him any candy.
Also, you come across as a child having a tantrum because Mom won’t give him any candy.

To give an example, after Spelman had blocked him on Facebook and Twitter, Schoen emailed her directly:

Then last night he sent me this email: pic.twitter.com/2wM0t0P3tl

— Breakfast Bitch (@GraceSpelman) August 17, 2015


Everything about that email reeks of entitlement and a belief that Spelman is somehow required to justify her actions to him. The pseudo noblesse oblige of “I could have put you in your place with my stinging retort but I chose not to,” only heightens the disconnect reality that makes Schoen’s behavior creepy. It even carries an implied, if somewhat impotent2 threat that he oh-so-generously decided not to follow through on… but he totally could have.

Another factor to keep in mind is that meeting basic standards like “not being a rapist” or being a “good guy” doesn’t entitle you to a woman’s time or attention. Similarly, your various accomplishments, however impressive they might be, don’t create an obligation for someone to bow to your whims. You want somebody to give you the time of day when you approach them? Be someone worth talking to. Be interesting. Be charming. Be respectful. Demanding a response just because you’ve paid what you think was a compliment isn’t respectful, it’s being a douchebag and it’s creepy. It demonstrates that you weren’t interested in just paying a compliment, you were really making demands on her time and attention. That sort of behavior is a distinct turnoff and makes sex disappear like dust in the wind.

Accept Rejection With Grace

Hard truth time: you’re going to get rejected. Everybody does, no matter how hot or how skilled they may be. You could be rejected for a multitude of reasons which could range from your saying something wrong to the moon being in the wrong house for her to date right now. At the end of the day, the reason for your being rejected doesn’t matter; it just means that for whatever reason, the two of you were not going to work out. It’s on you to accept that rejection with grace and aplomb.

Why? Because people who’re able to handle rejection well ultimately get rejected less. Being able to take rejection and not letting it either destroy you or turn you into a red-pill-fueled rage monster is a mark of emotional intelligence and higher levels of emotional intelligence correspond directly with greater dating success. Someone who realizes that one rejection isn’t the end of the world? That’s somebody with confidence and self-assurance. He may be single now, but he won’t be single for very long.

Accepting rejection with grace means, among other things, recognizing and accepting soft “no’s” – those attempts to soften the blow of the rejection by couching them in terms that make it seem like it’s less their choice and more just an unfortunate inevitability that’s nobody’s fault. When someone says that they’re not interested in dating right now or other attempts at deflection, they don’t mean “try again later”; they expect you to mentally append a silent “you” in that sentence. Don’t worry about missing your window; if someone is genuinely interested in dating you and it really is circumstance getting in the way, they will make sure you know.

Similarly, no response – such as when your online dating emails go unanswered – is a response. It’s just not the response you wanted.

The best thing you can do if you get rejected is to simply move on. If they tell you no, then say “Ok, thanks. Best of luck to you!” and look for someone who digs what you have to offer. If you get no reply at all… shrug your shoulders and move on; there’s no profit in trying to provoke a response and pushing more will turn that “no” into a “FUCK OFF”.

The worst thing you can do? Make a fuss. Get pissy with the person who rejected you. Demand answers, explanations or just straight up start insulting them. Now I get it. You’re hurt. Your ego’s stung and you’re going into defensive mode to try to get yours back. Trust me: nobody’s going to be impressed by your turning around and calling the other person fat, ugly, slutty or a bitch, especially when you were begging for their number earlier. At best, you’re justifying their reasons for rejecting you in the first place. At worst… well, you realize screenshots exist, right?

It's really less believable when they've got all the other messages begging for you to call them...
It’s really less believable when they’ve got all the other messages begging for you to call them…

Nobody ever looks good having a post-rejection freak out at somebody. Just witness Shoen’s “BURN IT ALL AND PISS IN THE ASHES” response on Twitter for the last two weeks. The standard “HA HA, YOUR HATE ONLY MAKES ME STRONGER” posturing is part and parcel of the “you can’t reject me, I’m rejecting YOU and also you’re fat and smell funny” gambit, where you pretend that you’re above it all as you flame out, only to rise from the ashes like a fedora-bedecked phoenix with a mighty cry of “M’lady!”

You don’t want to be that guy. It’s uber-creepy. It’s a sign that you’re just not ready to date anyone.

But the guy who has the confidence to let rejection slide, to feel the sting but not let it destroy him? Who can take a rejection with grace? He’s the one who’s going to succeed in the long run.  You may not get that particular woman… but other women will notice these things. They pay attention. And a guy who can avoid being creepy, who can show respect? Someone who’s fun and socially well-calibrated? That’s the kind of man women like. 

 

  1. Well, for certain values of “risk” [↩]
  2. A fifteen hundred word email, whoop-de-shit [↩]

Ask Dr. NerdLove: Can You Be An Ethical Pick-Up Artist?

August 15, 2014 by Dr. NerdLove 454 Comments

Hey Dr. NerdLove,

A long-time reader of your website here! I must say I like your no-nonsense and humane approach to things, although I haven’t really needed your advice the past years. Since I am now in the position that I do, I thought to ask you for some advice in the hope you could help me out.

My girlfriend and I recently ended our relationship and I am looking to start dating again. Before I settled down into a relationship with her, I dabbled in the Pick-Up community. I’ve had my successes, but not as big as some people in the community make themselves out to be.

I have a love/hate relationship with Pick-Up. I feel that it has given me some valuable lessons at the time, but I also think that some mindsets and thoughts in the community are highly poisoning or simply misogynistic. I’m afraid that without guidance I’ll fall back into some of these patterns, so I was wondering if you had some advice for someone with a (dabbling) background in Pick-Up. I’m not looking to spend five nights a week negging girls in a nightclub anymore. No more, I say!

Right now I’m a clean slate as I can be, regarding dating. I’d like to learn how to engage with women healthily this time. Do you have any advice? I know I don’t really have a specific question, but some general pointers on how to learn from, yet dodge the poisonous swamp that Pick-Up can sometimes be would be immensely helpful!

PUMaybe?

[Read more…]

Anatomy Lesson: When Persistence Pays Off

August 1, 2014 by Dr. NerdLove

There’s an important rule when it comes to self-improvement, especially when it comes to dating: some things can only be learned from experience. It’s easy to get caught up in dogmatic rules, but time and experience can teach you when exceptions arise. For example: I’m a big believer in the efficient use of one’s time and energy in dating. If someone rejects you, the best thing you can do is just shrug your shoulders and move on. But sometimes, a little persistence can mean the difference between getting the brush-off and getting the date… or more.

Being able to recognize those moments – and how to take advantage of them – however, can be tricky. Sometimes you need an experienced hand to point them out. Which is why it’s time to put my dating life back on the table with another Anatomy Lesson.

I cover a lot of topics, ranging from how to avoid being creepy by accident, what it takes to strike up a conversation with complete strangers and why playing the long game can give you better odds than hoping for instant, immediate attraction. But sometimes it can be hard to see how these all fit together. This is why one of the things I like to do here at Paging Dr. NerdLove is break down real-life examples of dating and mating to explain what went wrong, what went right and what we can learn from them.

"Right here is where he used to be the sense of  shame, right before he had it removed..."
“Right here is where he used to be the sense of shame, right before he had it removed…”

As always: names and certain details have been changed to protect the innocent and guilty alike.

Now before we get started: this example happened while I was still pretty deep in the pick-up scene. There’re some aspects to how this went down that I’m not not proud of – not the least of which being that I was trying to get someone to cheat on her boyfriend. That was pretty scummy of me at the time. With that having been said, there is a lot to learn from this and the boyfriend issue was a part of it. So stick with me and all will be made clear.

With that being said: let’s talk a little about the saga of Lady Jay and why a little smart persistence can go a long way.

The Setup

Back in my PUA days, I’d been developing a pattern for my nights out downtown. My friends and I would meet up at one bar for what we’d call our “warm ups” – low-investment approaches early in the night to get us into a more social mood before heading out for more looking for more “serious” prospects.

This also tended to a involve a number of warm-up shots.
This also tended to a involve a number of warm-up shots.

As a general rule, the nightlife in Austin would start around 10 PM and slowly build until reaching a crescendo around 1 AM. Since most people you’d meet early in the evening would only just be starting out, you wanted to conserve your energy. Certain bars were for early in the evening when things were more chill and we were only trying for numbers. Other bars were for later in the evening, when the higher energy and later hours meant that they would likely be more interested in hooking up that night. The general assumption was that you might want to circle back around to someone you met earlier, but the majority of your focus should be on the women you meet later on.

Of course, all that went out the window when I ran into one of the hottest women I’d ever met at our warm-up spot.

Analysis

Warm-ups are actually an important part of meeting people. Just as you don’t want to start running a 5k cold, you don’t want to start a social night out in a solitary headspace. It can be hard to shift into that social mode and leave you feeling anxious and out of place. This is one of the reasons why it’s good to go out with friends whenever possible; meeting up with them beforehand helps you get into a more talkative and outgoing mood.

Even if you’re going to be rolling solo or meeting up with your friends later, you can still warm up beforehand. Talking to friends on the phone (actually talking, not just texting) is a great way to stretch those social muscles before a party. Failing that, starting low-investment conversations with people around you – talking briefly with the waitress at dinner, for example – can help you warm up and get ready to meet people.

Also important: developing a feel for the energy levels of the people around you. Parties and social gatherings tend to follow a waveform pattern. The earlier you are, the more stand-offish and low energy people tend to be; they’re usually less likely to be receptive to more than basic conversation. People tend to loosen up and get more excited and energetic as the night goes on, peaking an hour or two before things close down for the night.

The Approach

She had come in with a few friends who had headed straight to the bar, leaving her standing over by a table, checking her phone.  Lady Jay was stunning to say the least. A little older than me1 but dressed to impress with a blue sparkly number that showed off an ass like damn and breasts like phwoar.

There was no way I was not talking to her, warm up or not. I had a couple drinks in me at that point and was feeling cocky, so I decided to go with a slightly more aggressive2 approach than normal because… well, to be perfectly honest, I thought I didn’t have a chance so fuck it.

“So is he in a lot of trouble?” I asked, nodding at her phone.
“Who?” she replied.
“The guy you’re texting who’s clearly late.”
She smirked at me. “Who says I’m texting a guy?”
I blinked. “Well if you’re texting a girlfriend, I’m going to be walking away from this very disappointed…” I replied. Mentally, I kicked myself. It was not my smoothest moment.

She dropped the phone back into her purse. “Be honest. You didn’t come over here just to ask me who I was texting,” she said, giving me a challenging stare.

At this point in my development, I’d met very few women who were willing to sass me back right off the opener; most of the women I met in bars either would reject me right off or tended to be much more indirect. This was the first time I’d run into someone who was willing to straight-up call me out on what I was doing.

It was simultaneously the hottest and most intimidating thing she could’ve done and it completely threw me off my game.

"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my massive erection..."
“I’m sorry, did you say something? I can’t hear you over the sound of my massive erection…”

PUA protocol at this point would be to shoot back with something snarky in order to take back control of the conversation. I, on the other hand, was so surprised that blurted out “OK, fine. I thought you were smoking hot and I really wanted to meet you.”

She laughed. “See, now you’re actually interesting,” she said, holding out her hand as though she were expecting me to kiss it. “I’m Jay.”

“And I’m thinking you should have a drink with me,” I said – desperately trying to regain my mental footing. This, in fact, would define most of our conversation that night – her managing to keep me off-balance by continually giving me unexpected levels of playful shit, followed by surprisingly deep conversation, punctuated by more teasing. I liked someone who could banter with me, but I hadn’t met anyone who managed to upend my expectations. She refused my offer of a drink but did sit with me instead. If it wasn’t for the fact that she kept touching me – a brush on the arm, a nudge with her foot –  and playing with her hair as we talked, I would’ve been convinced that she didn’t like me much. Eventually I managed to start zinging back, which made her laugh and lean in. It seemed like a natural moment for a kiss, so I moved in… and got the push-back via a finger on the lips.

“I don’t think my boyfriend would approve,” she said with a grin.
“…you waited until now to tell me you had a boyfriend?” I replied; if I knew I wasn’t going to have a chance with her, I wouldn’t have spent so much time flirting.
“What can I say? I was having too much fun talking to you. You’re interesting.”

As she stood up to leave, she turned and looked at me over her shoulder. “Maybe I’ll see you around some time.”

I had never been so confused in my life. And I was absolutely determined to have her.

Analysis

I probably learned more about flirting from Lady Jay than I did from almost anyone. She was the epitome of the push-pull dynamic – drawing in with a compliment then taking it back with a tease. It made her difficult to read and maddeningly hot. It wasn’t until I could match the same rhythm that she warmed up to me, and even then it was clear that I was playing catch up. Keeping someone slightly uncertain can actually increase their appeal – sexual tension, after all, is thwarted desire – but needs to be done carefully. Past a certain point, you’re no longer flirting so much as playing head games, which nobody likes.

The Second Encounter

It was sheer coincidence that I ran into Jay a second time. This time we ended up meeting at a club across the street from the warm-up bar; it was a favorite of ours because we’d gotten to know the bouncers and were able to skip the line. I made my traditional beeline to the bar when I felt a tap on my shoulder.

“Hey, Mister Pick-Up Line,” she said with a grin.
I gave her a mock-stern look. “Hey Trouble,” I replied. She pouted at me.
“How’m I trouble when I’m so nice?”
“Because you’re the one who’s going to get me in trouble if you keep looking at me like that.”

"I'm sorry, did you say you were actually good with women?"
“I’m sorry, did you say you were actually good with women?”

She laughed and punched me in the shoulder. I offered to buy her a drink, but she shook her head. “I’ve got my own,” she said. When I arched an eyebrow at her, she reached into her purse an wiggled a flask at me. “I like keeping track of how much I’ve had. Plus, they never have what I like here.”

“What do you have in there?” I asked, my curiosity piqued.
“Tequila” she said winking. I snorted. “What, you don’t like tequila?” she said, almost affronted.
“Oh no, I used to love tequila shots. Then, y’know, I learned I could get good alcohol.”
“That’s because you’ve never had the good stuff,” she said with a sniff. She hooked my arm with hers. “Come with me,” she said, pulling me over into a corner. “If they catch us, we’re going to get kicked out of here.”

"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my massive erection..."
“Sorry, I can’t hear you again.”

We huddled up near the booths as she passed me the flask. “Don’t shoot this. Sip it.”
It was my first time with straight tequila… and it was damn good. We stayed there for a good 15 minutes, passing the flask back and forth like teenagers at prom. I put my arm around her waist and she leaned in with me… but again, gave me the finger to the lips when I moved to kiss her. “Boyfriend, remember?”
“I don’t see him anywhere, do you?” I said. She shook her head.
“Doesn’t matter. Still exists.”
“You’re the one who pulled me into the corner,” I responded. She grinned.
“I didn’t say I didn’t like you. I said I had a boyfriend.”

That night we exchanged numbers; I joked that as long as she was going to be stalking me, I should be able to tell her where I was to make it easier on her. Later that night, I sent her a text: “Hey Trouble. Just so you know, I’m going to keep hitting on you.”
Five seconds later, she wrote back: “Well you’re certainly welcome to try.”

Analysis

This is where things started to get interesting. On the one hand, she was dating someone and wasn’t interested in cheating on him. On the other hand, she also was making it clear that she liked me… and was dropping considerable hints that hooking up wasn’t entirely out of the realm of possibility. Again, the push-pull aspect of our interaction was keeping me interested.

A lot of people would say that she was just trying to keep me on the line because she liked the attention, which is entirely possible. And to be honest, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing as long as everybody is on board. However, her behavior – approaching me instead of waiting to be approached, giving me her number – speaks far more to genuine interest than manipulation. Similarly, the moments of intimacy – pulling me into the corner, standing in close and sharing the flask – implied a deeper interest than just appreciating being hit on by a younger guy.

Most importantly, however, was that I’d been given explicit permission to keep flirting with her. This is the point where persistence comes in to play; she likes flirting with me, which only gives me more opportunities to win her over. At this point in my development, I had been quite successful, so I was confident that time was decidedly on my side. The key is to be careful not to cross the line. That’s the hidden meaning behind “welcome to try.” If I played things wrong – by being too persistent, getting needy, entitled or pushing things to the point that they weren’t fun any more, then I was going to get cut off.

Finding The Equilibrium

I spent the next several months (yes, months) walking a line with Lady Jay. On the one hand, all signs pointed to the fact that she liked me. On the other hand: boyfriend. I wasn’t so concerned about the boyfriend – as far as I was concerned, he was a temporary roadblock to what I wanted. The key – or so I thought – was going to be getting Jay’s attraction level high enough that it would override the existence of the boyfriend. At the same time: well, I wasn’t going to stick around waiting for her. Not when there were other women to hook up with. So it was a matter of keeping contact open and maximizing my time with her, but not giving signs that I was getting needy.

I knew from experience that more sexual flirting made actual sex more likely – but I couldn’t just come out and say “I want to fuck you”. There needed to be a more playful aspect to it – something fun to draw her in but also not tip my hand. She knew I wanted to bang her. I knew I wanted to bang her. But our entire relationship was based on the banter and dance of sexual frustration. The answer: texting. Texting made for perfect flirting territory. It was a way of keeping lines of communication open without being too pushy, and people tend to be more willing to be sexual via text than they would be over the phone or in person. So I would occasionally send bait texts: “Hey, I had the craziest dream about you last night. So I just wanted to say ‘hey’ and also ‘stay out of my dreams’. You make it hard to concentrate.” She’d send back “Aww, but I like you dreaming about me.” Another time I sent “Hey, just saw your evil twin.”

She wrote back “No, you saw the good one.”
“What makes you so sure?”
“Because everyone knows bad girls are hotter.”

OK, so she had me there.
OK, so she had me there.

If I was out and about downtown, I’d make a point of texting her to see if she was around and wanted to meet up. If she was downtown already, she’d usually meet up with me – at least for a little while. We’d banter, we’d flirt, I’d pull her in close… but that was as far as it ever got. It seemed like a battle of inches; she was fine with my putting my arm around her. She was cool leaning in against me in intimate space… but never anything further. It was maddening in its own way; I could tell she was in to me… but I could never quite get it over the last hump (as it were).

On the plus side, however, I was developing an appreciation for fine tequila.

Of course, I inevitably screwed myself.

There were plenty of times when we’d run into each other at various bars or clubs by legitimate coincidence.

"I call bullshit."
“I call bullshit.”

We’d talk and flirt, but then I’d move on and flirt with other people. There were a few memorable occasions where other girls I’d been seeing would come by and I’d end up making out with them in front of Jay.

And then I pushed things too far. On one occasion, I ran into Lady Jay at a club with her friends. As I came up to say hi, she waved me off. Confused, I went back to my friends. A bit later, she came up. “Sorry, that’s my boyfriend over there,” she said, gesturing at a guy by the bar.

I was aghast. This was my competition? He looked like the lead singer of White Lion after a lengthy prison stay. I couldn’t believe that I was being functionally cockblocked by someone who looked like he was in a Jackyl-with-a-Y cover band… and said so. “So… does he ever tell you about the days he opened for Winger?” I asked, getting a chilly smile in return. “No, seriously. Can you ask him to come over here and do ‘When the Children Cry?'” From that point on, when I ran into Lady Jay, I’d make a joke about her boyfriend.

That was a mistake.

“So… did he win you over with his rendition of ‘More Than Words’?”3 I asked once. And that turned out to be once to many.

“You know what? I’ve got to go,” she said. She turned and walked off without another word, leaving me with my metaphorical dick in my hand and the vague feeling that I’d just irreparably fucked myself.

Analysis

First and foremost: my persistence was not only welcome but working. Jay was very responsive; even if she had no intentions of dumping her boyfriend, she was enjoying my presence in her life. It’s a situation that requires being socially well-calibrated and aware of how other people are behaving; it’s easy to go from “welcome persistence” to “annoying nuisance” to “dear god why is this person not getting the fucking HINT!”  If I’d started getting pushback or detecting signs of The Fade4 I’d have bailed.

Next: this was a master class in how to do things right and wrong… occasionally at the same time. On the one hand, flirting with Jay via text was good. Not only did it help keep her aware of me, but it was easier to escalate sexually than it would have been in person. Text, to many people, just isn’t as “real” as talking on the phone and they’re more willing to go further. It also helped keep a barometer on how she felt about me. I spent more time initiating the texting, but she almost always responded quickly and enthusiastically, rather than with increasingly short replies.

On the other hand, insulting her boyfriend was a stupid, stupid move. To start with: it was just plain mean. Our flirting was fun as long as it was light and fluffy; the occasional mention of the vague obstacle entitled “boyfriend” was a part of the game. Talking about her boyfriend the person made it personal and dickish. Plus: not only did it make me look petty and immature – not exactly appealing traits in a man – but it also insulted Jay. After all, by mocking her boyfriend, I was mocking her taste in men. What does it say about what I think of her if I think her boyfriend is such a jackass? There’s a lot in PUA circles about “boyfriend destroyers” – mythical scripts or patterns that can diminish a boyfriend in his girlfriend’s eyes and make you that much more appealing. They’re bullshit. Bringing her boyfriend into it only made things worse.

Chasing other women, especially in front of her, didn’t help. It certainly didn’t necessarily hurt, but the biggest benefit was that I was still seeing other people instead of just pining after Jay. It didn’t magically make her jealous or somehow make her want me more. At best, she knew I wasn’t obsessing about her. At worst… well, it was basically neutral.

The Close

I was fairly convinced that I’d completely blown things with Lady Jay after the last incident. I tried apologizing – sincerely, even – but got nothing back. In fact, she didn’t respond to my texts for weeks afterwards. I hadn’t seen her downtown, either. It seemed that I’d pushed my luck too far and it had finally run out. I was surprisingly saddened by this; yeah, I wanted to sleep with her, not date her, but I’d really enjoyed our bantering and duel of wits. I was finding that I missed the back-and-forth teasing about who was trying to get into whose pants. Trying to get her in bed had been the project of six months at this point and it seemed almost a shame that it ended this way.

"I shall miss our games together... truly you were a worthy opponent"
“I shall miss our games together… truly you were a worthy opponent”

One night about a month later, several of my friends and I were planning a party at a local club – getting bottle service, reserving a significant portion of the club, the works. On a whim, I texted Jay, telling her I’d be there and she should totally stop by if she was going to be around. As far as I was concerned, it was tossing an invite out into the void. So I was surprised when Jay and a friend came by and made a beeline straight for me. Evidently they’d been out for a while already and after getting my message, Jay had decided… what the hell.

It was the first time that she’d been around my buddies for any length of time. They’d heard the stories and seen me flirting with her, but it was the first time she actually talked with any of them. I headed to the bar for tequila shots, handed one to Jay and said “Come with me, we’re dancing.” This was going to be my last-ditch effort to move things along; a little bump and grind on the dance floor to get excited and then… well, who knows? And it looked like it was going to work; as soon as we hit the dance floor, Jay was all over me like a cheap suit. We weren’t making out, but I was damn near getting humped straight into the ground as she was sliding my hands all sorts of interesting places. After what seemed to be too long and not nearly long enough at the same time, Jay mentioned that she had to go. I thought I was in like Flynn and offered to walk her to her car – conveniently parked in the garage across the street.

Standing by the car door, time began to slow down. We were both out of breath, yet breathing in synch. I put my hands on her waist and pulled her close. As she melted into me, our faces came closer and closer together, ever so slowly as the tension began to build…

And I got a finger to the lips. “Not yet,” she whispered. “I still have a boyfriend.”

Analysis

The magic words there? “Not yet.” Not, “no”. This wasn’t a refusal, this was a “need more time” – although I didn’t realize it at the time. More than anything else, persistence requires patience.

The smartest move I made was simply apologizing. Jay took her time in forgiving me, but the fact that I recognized the mistake and made a sincere apology for being an asshat earned a lot of good will back. If I hadn’t, she wouldn’t have spoken to me again afterwards.

The party also ended up working to my benefit. Having my friends talk me up to her helped solidify me as a cool guy – although this would’ve been more valuable earlier on. The biggest benefit, however, was the dancing. Humans are bad at recognizing how we feel; we feel the symptoms and ascribe causes to them later. It’s known as misattribution of arousal, and when done right, it works to your advantage. Anything that gets the heart-rate up increases sexual arousal because we tend to associate the feeling with a person rather than an event. The dancing got her hot and bothered – especially after seven months of flirting and building tension. All that we lacked at this point was for Jay to give herself permission – as it were – for the release.

The Payoff

A week later, I got a text. “I don’t have a boyfriend any more. So where’re you taking me tomorrow night?”

Later – much later – as we were cooling off in the afterglow and feeling the air tracing patterns over our skin, I turned to her and said “So… what made you decide that you were going to sleep with me?”
She yawned and stretched, sat up and began to collect her clothes.

“You didn’t give up. I liked that.”

 

A little persistence can go a long way

 

  1. As I would later find out, she was a good ten years older, in fact. Decidedly not a bad thing… [↩]
  2. also: douchebaggy [↩]
  3. Fun fact, my brother used to be very popular in middle-school because he could play ‘More Than Words’ on guitar… [↩]
  4. when someone starts to become non-responsive in hopes that you’ll go away, rather than having to actually have an awkward confrontation [↩]
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About Dr. NerdLove:

Harris O'Malley (AKA Dr. NerdLove) is an internationally recognized blogger and dating coach who gives dating advice to geeks of all stripes. Making nerds sexier since 20011

Remember: Dr. NerdLove is not really a doctor. [Read More …]

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