The course of getting better at dating never runs smoothly. It’s inevitable that you’re going to run into mistakes, problems, plateaus and roadblocks as you progress; it’s a part of the learning progress that everybody has to go through. Sometimes it’s just a brain-fart that screws you up for an evening. Sometimes it’s something that leaves you hung up for weeks or even months while you try to work your way through it.
But just because it’s a part of the process doesn’t mean that it’s not incredibly frustrating. When you’re pounding your head against the same damn wall over and over again, it’s easy to start feeling as though you’re never going to do any better and there’s no point in trying any more.
Fortunately, you’re not alone in this. I’ve had to work through my own sticking points when it came to getting better at dating, and I’ve helped many, many people through theirs as well. In fact, over the years, I’ve found certain issues come up over and over again. So rather than letting a plateau cause you to backslide to the person you were before, let’s examine some of the most common sticking points in dating.
Approach Anxiety
Unless you’re just naturally a social butterfly who can talk to anyone without fear or reservation, you’ve felt more than your share of approach anxiety. Sometimes it’s just the voice of your jerk-brain telling you all the ways that things could go wrong. Sometimes you rationalize all the reasons why you can’t go up to talk to someone you’re interested in, leaving you hovering in the corner, nursing your drink and wishing other people would come talk to you instead. Sometimes it’s a full blown panic attack, leaving you absolutely convinced that you’re about to die right there on the spot.
Now, approach anxiety is one of those areas where the best cure is a program of graduated exposure as you slowly start working your way towards getting comfortable with talking to people. Unfortunately this is a process of weeks, if not months… and sometimes you want a more immediate solution. Some will turn to a little booze to act as a social lubricant in order to try to overcome their anxiety… and that’s a mistake. At best, you’re just trying to paper over your fears by numbing yourself to them; at worst, you’re actually dulling your social skills even further as you keep slamming back shots in hopes that you can make that clenching sensation in your stomach disappear. By the time you’re feeling bullet-proof enough to say “hi”, you’re going to be half in the bag already and acting like a huge jackass… which isn’t going to help you at all.
Instead, what you want to do is warm up before you go to the party, the bar or the meetup. You wouldn’t start a race without stretching out first, so why would you try to leap head-first into a party without getting into more of a social mindset? Trying to dive into meeting people when you’ve spent the better part of the day lost in your own head is going to cause you to lock up, the social equivalent of your hamstrings cramping up. So before you head out, make a point of just talking to people with absolutely no agenda outside of just being chatty. Go up to people and just ask for directions or a recommendation for an awesome thai place. If you’re going out to eat before going to the Skee-Ball Afficionado’s meet-up, chat a little with your server: what’s good, what’s not. Call up a friend or a family member and just shoot the shit for 15 or 20 minutes.
You’ll still have those twinges of nervousness, yes… but you’re also going to already have the emotional momentum that all of that practice brings. By the time you’re out with your friends, you’ll be in the social headspace… so why not go talk to the brunette across the way who caught your eye?
Running Out of Things To Say
So you’ve been able to get past that initial rush of adrenaline and actually go introduce yourself to some people… except it seems like every time you end up talking to somebody, the conversation turns into awkward silence punctured by the occasional “so…” as you both scramble for something, anything to fill the conversational void. As a result: you end up saying something unbelievably stupid and inane and you’re kicking yourself even as you say it. All that’s left is for you to leave, dig yourself a hole and pull the dirt in after you.
Sometimes the key to not saying something stupid is to let the other person do more of the talking… so ask some leading questions. Interested is interesting, after all, and everybody appreciates someone who is showing that they find us so fascinating that they really want to know what we think. This is where active listening comes in handy – when you’re using what she says as a springboard for more topics, you’re showing her that you’re actually paying attention instead of just waiting for your turn to talk, like so many other guys she knows do.
If you want to switch things up from just asking questions, consider using the “assumption method” – instead of asking, you make an observation instead and ask for confirmation. For example, when I’ve met people, instead of asking where they’re from, I’d say something along the lines of “You’re not from here, are you? You seem much more like you’re from the East Coast… you’re much more direct and focused than Austinites are.” When I’ve been right, they’ve been amazed by my perceptiveness and insight. When I’ve been wrong, I’ve still indicated that I think that the qualities I mention make them cool… and it leads to a conversation about where she’s from either way. It’s related to cold-reads – it’s open-ended enough that you’re likely to be right, but even being wrong doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve fucked up either.
The other thing that helps is to have a couple of stories pre-loaded that you can bring up as needed with a simple segue. It doesn’t need to even be related to the conversation, just something that occurred to you or a way of finding commonalities. If I want to talk about crazy things that’ve happened when I’ve been travelling, I’ll nudge the conversation in that direction. “Hey, have you ever done $THING_I_LIKE? Dude, check this out…” Beyond being a chance to brag subtly about yourself, it’s also a way of filling in the space without having to tax your brain; I’ve got some stories I’ve told enough times that I could repeat them in my sleep. If I can’t think of something to say, then hey, pretty good time to bring up nearly getting run over by an elephant in Tanzania. To be fair: your stories don’t have to be that level of exciting; they just have to be entertaining and end with her saying “cool!” “awwww” or a laugh.
Remember, you don’t want canned routines, you want to tell stories that actually happened to you. Using somebody else’s material’s an inelegant substitute for having a personality and a life.
You’re Constantly Getting Rejected
Occasionally I’ve had people who report to me that they have given up on dating because everywhere they go, they’re encountering nothing but bitchy women who won’t even give them the time of day.
Others are perpetually bemoaning how dating is impossible unless you’re one of the rarified 20% (or 10% or 1%… depends on which meme is currently filtering through PUAHate, RedPill blogs and related sub-reddits) of alpha males/bad boys/high-status men and whining about how women have stacked the deck against them and they can never compete because evidently, women rule Bartertown and that’s just not fair. This usually descends into whinge-fests about hypergamous women, the eeevils of feminism and why foreign women (especially Asian women) are so superior to Western women and why can’t these guys get the pussy they deserve, man!
Now obviously, not everyone who’s dealing with constant rejection is this bad. But it does illustrate the common cause for this sticking point. If you’re getting nothing but rejection, then the only common denominator is, frankly, you.
Sometimes it’s a simple matter of appearances. You may not be the walking reincarnation of Clark Gable, but it’s easy enough to be more attractive with some very basic changes. Other times it’s simply a matter of skill, which will improve over time with practice.
But more often than not, it’s a matter of unresolved personal or emotional issues that need to be addressed before you can move any further.
The most common issue I’ve seen in people who get rejected constantly has been neediness – these people have a desperate need for validation from others, especially from the women they’re attracted to. Whenever they’ve approached a woman, they’ve been alternating between being worshipful and begging, hoping that they’re going to stumble upon the proper mix of “Nice Guy” that will melt her stony heart and open the doors to the Promised Land.1 These men are willing to sublimate everything about themselves in hopes of getting a woman – any woman – because in the end, they’re looking for someone to plug the hole labeled “Girlfriend” and give their lives meaning.
The next most common tend to be the guys with entitlement issues, who believe that they’re owed sex, or a girlfriend, or even just the time of day. These are often the ones who ignore women’s signals because hey, if you’re gonna approach, you gotta know you’re the prize and make them respect that so get in there and show them you’re the leader, bro. These are also the people who are most likely to encounter the fabled “bitch shields” that women throw up supposedly to test men and weed out the undesirables. Except bitch-shields aren’t a thing. If you’re consistently encountering bitchy women, then the odds are that your approach is what’s putting them off, whether you’re coming across as rude, inconsiderate, or inauthentic or else showing that you are incapable of understanding when you’re not wanted.
There’s also a frequent parallel sticking point that crops up with constant rejection: a simple refusal to change or accept feedback. Either the individual refuses to take responsibility for their own complicity in their difficulties or even acknowledge that there’s a problem in the first place. On occasion they will make their obstinacy a point of pride, even in the face of constant failure. Other times they will place the blame anywhere else- on women, on society, on the locale, even on their own supposed superiority. It’s only when they are willing to be brutally honest with themselves and own their involvement and control over their lives will they begin to progress.
In short: if you’re constantly getting rejected, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and make some changes.
You Never Get A Second Date
As you get better, you may notice that while old sticking points have vanished, new ones have taken their place. Where you might have never been able to even get a phone number or had a problem with women consistently flaking on you, now you’re getting solid numbers and even dates regularly… but never a second.
In a perverse sort of way, this is a quality problem to have – it’s a sign of how far you’ve progressed. If you’re getting first dates, you’re actually doing a good job at attracting and intriguing women… now you need to build on that success. The trick is to determine just why you’re not getting those second dates.
On occasion, it’s an internal, emotional issue – much like those who are forever getting rejected, there are attitudes and beliefs that are poisoning your game. When you’re letting self-limiting beliefs and negativity get in the way, it’s going to show in everything you do, from the way you talk to the way you interact with your date to the way you sit and stand. Even the most self-disciplined poker player is going to find that his unexamined need for external validation radiates from him like a lighthouse in the fog.
Often it’s simply a matter of just not connecting with your date. It’s easy to get caught up in the need to impress her, to want to prove that you’re amazing and that she should be attracted to you just because of how awesome you are, but this misses the point of the date in the first place. She’s already at least somewhat interested in you, otherwise she wouldn’t be there; your job now is to make that interest grow. The best way to get into her heart or her pants is to get into her mind first. Find the commonalities that the two of you share. Show her the passion you have – people who have passion in their lives and can express it are much more attractive and desirable than those whose lives are a hum-drum march into old age and death. Connect with her emotionally by making her feel – someone who can inspire feelings of joy or awe or fun is someone she’s going to want to see again.
You Keep Getting Stuck In The Friend Zone
We’re going to make an important distinction here: this is when you’re consistently finding that people you’re interested in romantically or sexually only like you as a friend, not the results of the Platonic Friendship Back Door Gambit. If you’re trying to get a woman to fall for you by pretending to be her friend, then a) you already know what you’re doing wrong and b) you deserve what you get, fuckknuckle. Friendship under false pretenses is a shitty thing to do to someone.
The Friend Zone is simply a short hand for “she’s not attracted to you”. That’s it. If you’re consistently hearing the dreaded “Let’s Just Be Friends” speech, then what these women are telling you is that somewhere along the line, you’ve messed up. More often than not, this comes down to one of two problems. Either you weren’t up front about your interests – in action as well as in words – or else she simply isn’t attracted to you and is trying to be nice about letting you down.
Getting stuck in The Friend Zone tends to be a problem when you’re younger and have a harder time being up front and honest about what you want. It means being willing to be polarizing; you’re making a definitive stand and demanding a response rather than hanging in the more comfortable haze of plausible deniability and unrealized possibilities. It means being willing to risk rejection, instead of trying to play it safe and getting nowhere… and frankly, you’ve usually earned your failure.
You can’t just say “I like you” and leave it there; if your mouth is saying that you’re interested in her and your behavior says “keep your distance”, then all that’s going to happen is that you’re going to leave her feeling confused and uncomfortable. The incongruity will ultimately lead to her giving you the LJBF speech for her own comfort, if nothing else. Better to default back to platonic friendship rather than keep in this uncomfortable Limbo. You have to be willing to back up your words with action; you need to be willing to touch her, to flirt with her, to build sexual tension. Otherwise, you’re showing that you’re not that interested in her after all – or that you’re hoping that she’s going to do the hard work of seducing herself for you.
If you’re interested in someone, you have to commit. You have to be willing to own your desires and act on them if you expect any chance of actually fulfilling them. By trying to hedge your bets, you’re implicitly saying that either you don’t believe that you can succeed or that you don’t deserve to. Yes, you run the risk of rejection… and that’s fine. Rejection is a sign that the two of you were incompatible in the first place. It’s better to get shot down early, so you can move on and find someone who is into you, rather than to linger for months – sometimes even years – and missing golden opportunities because you’re hung up with a case of Oneitis.
Fortune favors the brave. Taking more risks means you’re going to get shot down, true… but better that than constantly getting stuck in The Friend Zone.
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LeeEsq says
What is the difference between want and need? There seems to be a very fine line between wanting a girlfried or sex because they are normal desires and neediness. Crossing this line seems lethal. How do you express want without coming across as needy.
The entire thing seems to be a bit of a paradox. You have to demonstrate desire without it coming across to strongly. It favors people who had early success or are just good actors.
Cait says
It's not that bad. After all, if you're on a date, she knows you want a girlfriend. Anything more and you come across as needy.
The PUA community takes it WAAAAY too far, but their concept of negging does have one tiny, interpreted value. Dates/ conversations that are clearly leading up to dates, are chances for her to prove that she's worth your time too. Should NOT be done by insulting her, but simply by asking her questions that probe into what makes her interesting. It comes across as needy if you act like she's got it in the bag on the first date, especially if you're strangers/ virtual strangers. If she comes in expecting to bend over backwards to show off to you and you're convinced she hung the moon, she's gonna get nervous. You don't know each other, so your blatant good opinion is based solely on the image you've got of her in your head, which she knows isn't true. Could be two things: you're desperate and will take anyone with a pulse or you've already put her on a pedestal that she's bound to fall off from. Neither is good.
LeeEsq says
I definitely think that I don’t come across as somebody who would take anybody with a pulse. I have standards. Nor do I bend over backwards for my dates. Bern there, done that.
I am very good at asking questions that probe. My job gives me a lot of practice with that.
Cait says
That's its own problem. My fiancé has said on more than one occasion that I am lawyering him.
A good pattern would be a question that probes that can also be tied back to you. After all, you're looking for places to connect.
"Where was your favorite place you've been?"
"Oh, Florence, I've always wanted to go there. What was the best part?"
"The art, huh? Well, I haven't been to Florence, but I did get swept away by this museum in Boston once…."
Think deposition, not cross examination.
LeeEsq says
I do this.
Cait says
Hmmm..
I keep circling back to resentment/ general emotional closed-offness.
What you need to realize is that there are women out there thinking the exact same thing you are, with the same way of approaching the world and relating to it, and it's just a matter of finding them.
If you were a woman, where would you be? It sounds silly, but it might help you to find someone you're really compatible with if you imagine how you would want to be picked up, were you female. Be honest now, it does you no good to lie to yourself.
Ethyl says
Lee, I've mentioned in other threads (although I came late to them) that I wonder if maybe you're doing less of the circling-back-to-yourself thing than you think you are. I've been in conversations with well-meaning men who constantly ask me about myself, and it can really become exhausting and start to feel hostile, even if you're nice and smiling and acting interested.
If you add into that what sound like barely-concealed resentment and entitlement issues, and you're going to come across as someone who is auditioning a woman for the role of "girlfriend," and not someone who is actually interested.
Shaj says
" It's not that bad. After all, if you're on a date, she knows you want a girlfriend. Anything more and you come across as needy. "
You'd think so, but not if you're like me and end up at dinner with a woman (only you two) and she for some reason doesn't think I'm intending it as a date.
Robjection says
Just checking, did you actually say the word "date" to her when making the dinner arrangements? If not, then small wonder she doesn't think it's a date – when in doubt about the level of a relationship, default assumption is lowest one that hasn't yet been disproved, and since it's entirely plausible for two platonic friends to go out for a meal, the "platonic friend" level hasn't been disproved.
If you did make sure to call it a date, then … I got nothing.
Shaj says
I didn't, but one of them knew that I thought it was a date and decided not to correct me (I know this because she told me later). Then she left with another man.
Cat says
Use the word "date" and be up front about it next time then. That forces her to be up front too. Either she wants to go on an actual date with you or she doesn't. Avoiding it in fear of face-to-face rejection will land you in situations such as the one you mentioned above.
eselle28 says
Ouch. Yeah, that's not a very nice thing to do if you know the other person thinks it's a date.
That being said, I still think that being clear and using the words avoids a lot of problems. Someone who just wants to ride along for an evening out and enjoy the ambiguity doesn't get plausible deniability anymore, and someone who is willing to be clear will know where things stand.
Kwerkii says
I've had the situation where I agree to hang out with a friend and only realize after a little while that it was supposed to be a date. At that point I don't exactly feel comfortable about hurting my friend by outright rejecting him when all I expected was to hang out for a bit. I do not condone "leading others on" but accidental dates (when only one party thinks the two of you are on a planned date) are this frustrating grey area that is awful for both parties (if the platonic friend catches on…which they usually do).
The lyrics to this song http://www.clevergirlsmusic.com/lyrics_accdate.ph… (track 3 if you want to listen) has Very good examples of an accidental dates.
@kleenestar says
I once ended up going out with a guy on what I thought was a date.
He brought his ex.
And got back together with her while out with us both.
And ended up making out with her in front of me until I just got up and left.
LeeEsq says
Something similar happened to me once. A few years ago, a friend of mine did attempt to introduce me to somebody who thought would be good for me. He arranged for a double date, he and his girlfriend, the other woman and I. She brought somebody she was interested in. It was kind of awkward.
eselle28 says
Oh, those are the worst situations, for both people.
I think the general feeling among a lot of people here is that you should actually use the word "date" when you're asking out people outside of online dating, and especially if you're asking out friends or coworkers. I'm not normally too dense, but there have been a couple times when I thought it was really clear that we were friends, or where it seemed natural to get food with a coworker after working late, and one awkward incident where I had the wrong impression (not without evidence) about someone's sexual orientation.
Becelec says
I have a serious boyfriend and I frequently go out for dinner or the movies with male friends, just one on one. Would never consider these to be dates, never did when I was single either. Which occasionally lead to awkward surprise dates where I thought we were just hanging out.
@kleenestar says
I am going to make a crazy suggestion. I think for you, a lot of the neediness comes down to feeling like if you don't get things exactly right, you'll never get to have sex. Do you have a female friend you could ask to have no-strings-attached sex with you? Even if you don't go through with it, knowing that you have an alternative lined up could take a lot of the emotional weight off your dates.
LeeEsq says
No, my female friends are either married or are in committed relationships or are lesbians. Your probably right about the source of my neediness but I have no way of getting no strings attached sex or even a make out session. My only option is going through the long arduous task of dating.
Cait says
Take a trip to Nevada.
LeeEsq says
You really think having to pay for it, isn’t going to lead to another source of problems? Would you react well if you learned that your fiancé went to prostitutes? Do you really think that having to pay for it will make me feel better?
Cait says
Of course I don't. I also don't actually think that having sex will solve your base problem, even if your base problem is that you want it badly. You'll just want something else badly.
johnny doe says
is your past sex life your fiance's business, if it took place before you guys ever met? If its on a need-to-know basis, I guess, but need-to-know so I can harshly judge you for it and think lowly of you? I can't speak for anyone else on this board, but I don't think that's cool.
eselle28 says
I'm not sure this is an issue people can talk about in prescriptive language. Whether it's right or not, there are some partners who consider a frank discussion of sexual history to be the price of entry. There are others who don't really care, or who only want the broad strokes.
I've chosen to pass on dating men who wanted to really scrutinize my past behavior – partly because I suspect their judgment would be a thumbs down in any case, partly because I take that as a signal they're not well-suited to me, and partly because that sounds like the most tiresome conversation in the world. I can see a certain sort of person who wants to be with someone who has conservative sexual views running into trouble with this, though, as there might not be much overlap between people they'd want to date and people who'd never ask. Then again, unless those people have some really wild double standards, they may need to think about whether they're actually comfortable with the behavior in question.
Johnny Doe says
I think open-minded people can, and they don't need to be frank about it all if they don't want to be. The key phrase in your post is *past* behavior. Is it a *present* issue?
Unless you have created permanent consequences through your sexual past, STDs or children, I just don't see how this needs to be relevant to assessing a potential relationship.
How would such a price-of-entry conversation go: " Like how many people have you slept with? four huh? Yeah, this isn't going to work out"
eselle28 says
I'm certainly on the same page as you for the most part, but I'm fairly open-minded about sex. I can see there being a handful of past issues that would make me decide never to be involved with someone – for instance, I wouldn't date someone who'd sexually abused a child or who described a past encounter that I interpreted as my partner raping someone – but in my case, they're relatively small in number. For whatever it's worth, I had a former boyfriend who visited sex workers a couple of times while living in a country while it was legal, and I didn't object.
However, there are people who aren't me and some of those people do judge based on people's past choices. I know a decent number of men who wouldn't be interested in dating a woman who's had as many sex partners as I have, and for the most part, I think it's best if we both go our separate ways. The conversations kind of go as you describe. I know some people who were virgins when they married and who only wanted to date other virgins, or who only have sex in long term relationships and expect the same from their partners. In all those cases, I think it's best if people go their separate ways so they each can find someone more compatible.
isdzan says
I am fair to mostly certain the man I am dating probably went to a sex worker or hooked up with a bar girl when he was in the service. It is just the kind of thing men in the service do. Not my concern, not my business and definitely not something I am going to ask about. Sexual past (barring the exceptions mentioned by eselle of child abuse and rape) have no bearing on our sexual present or future.
If he asked about mine I'd be a bit annoyed, though. I have had a very limited number of partners, so it isn't that I fear being judged as slutty. It is more that it has nothing to do with him. I am not a freaking used car. You don't need my SexFax
Gentleman Horndog says
And then there are guys like me who think hearing about her past sexual experience is fascinating in its own right, a useful tool for estimating our own sexual compatibility, and potentially an immensely fun conversation. If "What was the first really GOOD sex that you ever had?" is a natural place for the conversation to go, that first date is going really well.
(Of course, I now recognize that if my first reaction to her recounting a wicked-hot encounter is "So I take it you didn't press charges? WHY?!", that's a red flag.)
I like dating women who like sex. This probably means they've had it with plenty of people who aren't me, had a great time doing it, and now have a solid idea of what they do and don't like — and that's actually pretty awesome.
enail says
To me, I don't care all that much about sexual history on either side (other than the kinds of dealbreakers you mention), but I would feel kind of weird about it if a partner wasn't willing to talk about their sexual past when it happened to come up in conversation – if someone was having sex with me in a relationship context, I'd hope they'd feel comfortable talking with me about their sex life, even if they didn't want to say a specific number or didn't have any experience to mention.
isdzan says
Why would you need to tell anyone you paid for sex? It isn’t like a sexual history biopsy is needed in a LTR.
You might benefit from trying the Docs cold approach advice, less to get dates (although yay if that happens) but more to practice conveying sex appeal and interest in a short period. If you can learn how to do that, it might help when you meet for first dates.
Cait says
This is also true. As long as you're clean, who cares? I'm actually more interested in the hypothetical woman who faked a relationship with you in her head who follows you on social media than I am how you ended up with a one-night stand in Vegas.
Gentleman Horndog says
I don't think this is a good idea.
I'm not a psychologist. But I have to think that if you're coming at sex from a position of frustration and anger, paying a beautiful woman to pretend she's into you will only wind up adding fuel to that particular fire.
@kleenestar says
On the other hand, it could be a way out of the trap of "there is one right way to do this." I don't think I know Lee well enough to judge.
Gentleman Horndog says
Perhaps. But — acknowledging that Lee's head is not my head — when I was in a similar headspace, a big part of my brain was actively looking for reasons why I sucked, and would have glommed onto "The only way a woman that attractive will ever like you is if you pay her" in a hurry. With a heaping side order of "And I hope you liked that glimpse of something you will never, ever actually have!"
Just figured that, if the sex-positive horndog who thinks independent callgirls are awesome sees potential harm here, I probably oughta say something. 😉
trixnix says
Speaking as someone who has been told in his life by some people that the only way he'd ever get sex was either by paying for it or raping someone (not true as it turns out but bullies are fun), I have to agree that paying for sex may not be the answer here. The idea that the only reason he got sex was because he paid for it is probably more problematic than whatever is actually stopping Lee right now.
Or maybe I'm biased. I have quite a powerful sex drive which, with the way this body looks, can sometimes not be fun to experience. But I'm not interested in sharing that sex drive/sex with anyone doesn't actually want to be with me in that context and that would include someone I'd paid to have sex with me. Mainly because they wouldn't be there with me without the money being paid to them.
Part of me wants to make Lee the offer: show me how you get so many first dates and I'll show you how to get second dates. Because on the occasions where a woman is actually interested in me, I can connect quite well with her and I don't usually get flakes. In fact, on those occasions, there's often no real need for a second date since we're already a couple by then. It's just that those occasions don't turn up very often.
Gentleman Horndog says
I'd argue that escorts do earnestly want to be with you, if only to get you to come back. Repeat clients are their bread and butter; new clients always carry the risk of being either violent douchebags or law enforcement. (In fact, if she gets enough regulars, she can stop advertising her services and enjoy a self-contained employment ecosystem with remarkably little risk given her profession.) But, yeah, wanting to be with you so her rent gets paid isn't nearly as flattering as wanting to be with you because you're just that hot, so point taken. 🙂
And why are you so down on your body, man? I am one tubby bastard, but there are women — very attractive ones — who've found me damned sexy. Of course, they had to get to know me a bit first, but I don't think my situation is unique that way. You don't have to look like a Jersey Shore cast member to get positive attention from women you want to get it from.
I DID used to have one friend who told me (repeatedly) that she thought I was unfuckably ugly, and openly wondered how my (now ex-)wife could stand it. Kindly note the use of the past tense when I describe that "friendship."
Cait says
GH, I have no idea what you look like, and I'm happily monogamous, but I find your personality very attractive.
It's cliched to say that looks don't matter, because they definitely do, but for me the only real turn off is someone who is unhygenic. Otherwise, if you're a great person, I'm gonna enjoy making out with you. After all, you're a great person ALL of the time. I only get to see your rippling abs when your shirt's off.
Akai says
I'd like to second the hygiene thing: the only times I've ever actively thought "nope, definitely can't have sex with HIM" have been for people who seemed unwashed. Though I have appearance preferences, they're nowhere near as set in stone as that.
Henry Gorman says
Trixnix, if I had to guess, the reason why Lee gets lots of first dates is probably just that he's a lawyer. This isn't a hypergamy issue– it's more that being a lawyer means that one is well-educated (and thus, more likely to have something in common with other well-educated people) and probably fairly responsible.
Cait says
So are you suggesting that people are giving him a try who wouldn't otherwise simply due to his profession? Not saying I disagree, just asking for clarification.
LeeEsq says
FU.
Johnny Doe says
disagree with you big time – I am a lawyer, a very successful one at my age, and I go on dates once every 2 years. Lee does not get dates because of his profession.
Girls don't just yes to a date because you are a doctor or a lawyer. I've gotten rejected for first dates so many times with girls who knew I was a lawyer. Honestly, when I go on a date, that literally in itself is an accomplishment. Getting laid or going back to her place or mine in my mind doesn't even register because getting a date and GOING on the date in itself is such a big deal.
Girls who know how much I make (not because I was bragging, because it did come up in general conversation) did not act differently or more interested afterwards. Or maybe I've never asked a girl out who would be thrilled to go out with a guy whose got some of it, but its just not the case in my experience.
I think to test out what Henry Gorman is saying, I would need to put in my dating profile how much I make plus my profession – right now, i get zero, and I mean zero replies to every girl I send messages to on OKC. So if you were correct, the replies should spike up automatically because its criteria girls consider for the first date, but I just don't believe that is the case.
My take – your profession and how much you make is NOT a dealbreaker for a first date, and if it is, thats retarded. I've never experienced a girl more attracted to me because of my profession or my income, and the only I time I ever did get laid, I was a broke college student.
ccmc says
Yeah, I actually find it kind of a turn-off when a guy lists his income on a profile. I know that people want to get as many replies as possible and feel that listing the income will accomplish that, but I kinda feel like I'm being accused of being materialistic. I don't think it would be a dealbreaker for replying to someone, but it does give me pause.
johnny doe says
yeah, I never list my profession or annual income in my profile, and I'm getting to a point where I'm not even going to disclose what I do for a living – I drive a car, and can afford my own place, I definitely don't do anything illegal or shady – its just not anyone's business, not until they get to know me better – no one NEEDS to know what you do for a living off the bat. It can be tricky sometimes to avoid talking about what you do without coming off rude, but its something I am working on right now.
This is because I am really, really convinced the interest level of girls that I encounter does not go up or down based on how much $$ I am making or my job. And honestly, why would it? When you are out at a bar, or at a social event, people are people, they aren't their jobs.
Ethyl says
Adding to what GH and Cait said — I've been with some weird-looking people. I find trixnix's personality utterly captivating and wish he didn't live on a whole other continent so we could be friends 😀
LeeEsq says
Trixnix, do you have an online dating profile? There are several keys to your online dating profile. The first are the pictures. You should never use pictures that were explicitly taken for online dating profiles, they always look posed. You want pictures that were taken on other occasions, some only with you and some with you and other people. You will be more relaxed in these pictures and they will look much better. You also need to be honest in your profile. You shouldn't lie about your interests, your physical appearance or anything else. The goal is meeting in person and forming a relationship. Lying about anything can act is a turn off even if you meant it as a joke like the people who say their highest level of education is space camp on OkCupid. I refuse to message these people, they aren't being serious.
Your profile should show why you are an interesting person and why people should want to date you. It should not be challenging, confrontational or intimidating. It should be warm and inviting. Put very little about sex in it as possible.
LeeEsq says
Part 2: When you see a profile you want to respond to, read it very carefully. Find something in the profile that you can comment to in length and inquire about. It shows that you paid attention to the profile and are interested in her as a person. Try to relate to something in your life. Write in complete and grammatical sentences and try to at least write something two or three paragraphs long. Ask to meet her in person after about three or four messages. Try to meet as soon as you can. If you can find an activity that matches what you were communicating about the better.
trixnix says
Reply to Part 2:
"When you see a profile you want to respond to, read it very carefully. Find something in the profile that you can comment to in length and inquire about. It shows that you paid attention to the profile and are interested in her as a person. Try to relate to something in your life. Write in complete and grammatical sentences and try to at least write something two or three paragraphs long. Ask to meet her in person after about three or four messages. Try to meet as soon as you can. If you can find an activity that matches what you were communicating about the better. "
Thanks, Lee. I did what you said when I was doing online dating.
trixnix says
Thanks, Lee. It might take a while for me to reply to this so sorry if this gets long winded:
"Trixnix, do you have an online dating profile?"
I did have. I actually did better online than in real life for a bit with women getting in touch with me and one woman wrote me a poem. Did have some bad experiences. In one case I'd forgotten to put a photo up and one woman seemed interested. The moment I did put one up she stopped being interested. There's been reports in the UK of staff at online dating websites pretending to be signed up members to entice users to pay for membership. I've also seen people troll on online dating sites. I don't really trust it that much anymore.
"You want pictures that were taken on other occasions, some only with you and some with you and other people. You will be more relaxed in these pictures and they will look much better."
Photos are fun. My eyes are very light sensitive and the flash of a camera often prompts my eyes to close leading to pics with my eyes closed. Plus a lot of the dating sites I tried would not accept pictures that featured other people as well as me. They only wanted pictures of me. Bit problematic to be honest but I take your point about photos.
"You shouldn't lie about your interests, your physical appearance or anything else. The goal is meeting in person and forming a relationship. Lying about anything can act is a turn off even if you meant it as a joke like the people who say their highest level of education is space camp on OkCupid. I refuse to message these people, they aren't being serious. "
Not lied about anything on a dating site. There were times when my age didn't get updated because I left the profile for a while and there was one time where the dating site would literally not accept any photo other than one that was taken a few years ago. But I don't lie about my interests, physical appearance or anything else.
"Your profile should show why you are an interesting person and why people should want to date you. It should not be challenging, confrontational or intimidating. It should be warm and inviting. Put very little about sex in it as possible. "
I've not put anything about sex in any online dating profile I've had. I wrote most of my online dating profiles apart from the rather odd time where my ex wrote an online dating profile for me because she was insistent she could "sell me" to women. I'm glad her first draft never made it online.
Just to say I really appreciate your tips and insights and I've taken them onboard. I'm replying to provide more details of my experience/more information.
Cait says
In my experience (and I tried some paid and some free, but back in 2010) the free sites were actually *less* inclined to have the fake pages, because the free sites don't get membership fees and make it easy to delete your page. Just try getting away from a paid site. Holy neediness, Batman, I've never had a break-up that hard!
Other people might have different stories, but what I've experienced and talked to people and heard from them is that the free are… better. And also free.
Gentleman Horndog says
My experience matches yours. AdultFriendFinder is great for finding spambots and dead profiles. OKC is where I go for actual people.
trixnix says
Thanks, GH, Cait.
Tried OKC a while back. Got nothing out of it. My sister has had a lot of success online dating. I'd prefer not to go back into it because whilst I probably will come across better in writing that I do in person (I don't know if that's true but I suspect it), I'd still end up on the date in person. I'd rather meet people in real life and give things a go. That's my thinking at the moment.
LeeEsq says
The free sites like OkCupid are better than the paid sites like Match.com. They have a much more liberal photo policy, it might be too liberal if the accussations of some people on the internet are true. I never had any photograph rejected on Okcupid. Even if you photograph weirdly, you will still look more natural, relaxed and better in photographs that were not explicitly taken to put on a dating sites. I also find that the free sites have more honest and more detailed profiles than the paid sites and the free sites are free.
You might also want to check out Coffee Meets Bagels. Its an innovative website. You set up your profile. Every day they send you a profile. You select if you like that person or not. If you do and she likes you; they set up a private text line between you to that last for a week or so.
@okidoll821 says
I agree. I was on paid sites, but ultimately found OKCupid to be the best place to find people with my interests. Their forums are fun too. It was just a much more open place than Match or E-Harmony.
Cait says
It's definitely a delicate distinction.
If Lee were a 38 year old woman who had never had sex and wanted children, wouldn't we be treating the issue slightly differently? Maybe, maybe not. The real point is that his desire to achieve something is precisely tripping him up in his quest to achieve it. How do you get around that?
eselle28 says
That's an interesting comparison. I think that I, at least, would want to talk to her about the possibility that she would get only one of the things she wanted (the children) and that the sex and the relationship wouldn't necessarily come along later. Would she be happy just being a mother, or is single parenting so far from her idea of the family she wants that it would just be harder and worse? You definitely run into women who split on this issue, and I suspect you'd see a divide between men considering going to sex workers as well.
Another issue that would come up, that's being discussed here but isn't such a big deal, is the extent to which pursuing the thing you want so badly that it's tripping everything else up might make it harder to obtain those other things. I think that's very much an issue with recommending that woman have a child on her own. I think people are probably overstating the extent to which visiting a sex worker will harm any future relationship – it's not exactly something that's printed on someone's forehead as a notice to future dates.
LeeEsq says
I'd argue no, you would not be treating this the same way. I think women with frustrating love and sex lives are dealt with more sympathetically. Very rarely are they told to reflect on why they might be getting rejected and told to improve this and that in order to get better chances. Giving that sort of advise might be even labelled sexist. Very often the message is that men are fools for not recognizing how great this particular woman is without change.
The idea that "nobody owes you sex" is officially gender and sexuality neutral but I think the intended audience is heterosexual men. The subtext is that heterosexual men have to earn sex while everybody else has more of a innate right to be sexual and to have sex while heterosexual men do not. This might not be intended but thats the subtext behind it.
eselle28 says
I wouldn't say that's quite true. The men are fools advice is given by some friends, but so is the women are bitches advice. As a woman who has a frustrating love life and sometimes a frustrating sex life, the advice I'm generally given is a list of ways that I could be less picky (date older men, date men with children, date men whose views you find disagreeable because they'll probably change them if you push hard enough, go on as many dates as a man will ask you on to see if you'll change your mind, don't decide you're not attracted to someone until you've actually had sex with him, and so on) and a suggestion that I lose weight. I think a lot of women would actually like getting a list of wardrobe, personality, and lifestyle changes that might do some good in addition to the usual tips, rather than being told that it's just a matter of being prettier or less picky.
Everyone has an innate right to be sexual. You don't necessarily get to have someone you find attractive who wants to be sexual with you. I would say that "nobody owes you…" could be extended a bit more to women, but I think the area that sometimes needs to be mentioned is that life doesn't promise you a marital partner or a serious boyfriend.
LeeEsq says
This seems accurate. A lot of my real life friends say reassuring things to me like "I have a lot to offer" or "women are bitches" or similar things.
Don't women magazines provide the wardrobe, personality, and lifestyle changes to women? I think that this sort of advise is a lot harder to give to women than men because a lot of it could come across as kind of contrary to feminism if given wrong or given at all. Some of the advise would seem more than a little retro. I'll give an example, a woman once contacted me on OkCupid. I checked out her profile and decided not to respond because it was a massive turn off. It basically read as "this is who I am, if you have a problem with this FU". Thats a fine sentiment but not when it comes to advertising why men should date you. I like something of an indication that the woman is loving and affectionate in her profile rather than confrontational. I think plenty of other men are similar. Yet telling women that men like loving, affectionate personalities reeks of traditional gender roles and is more than a little anti-feminist to say that they should cultivate it. Its a terrible bind.
eselle28 says
No, not really. They tell you to lose weight, mostly. If you already have someone to have sex with, they'll provide a list of ridiculous and potentially criminal ways to spice up your sex life. To the extent they cover makeup and fashion, it's not in a way that really supports dating or even taking the recommendations into real life. It's more like things to look at pretty pictures of than suggestions anyone could afford or mimic. As for lifestyle or personality advice, no, not at all.
I think there would be a way for someone to tell certain sorts of women to tone down the harshness a bit without implying women should be subservient or weak. I'd admit it's tricky, however. That being said, that doesn't mean that the dating advice currently available for women is particularly kind and coddling. It's particularly harsh if you can't or have already decided you're not willing to lose weight – all that remains is a list of people who you don't want to date but who the advice-giver thinks you should date. I'll allow that it's good for people to occasionally reexamine their standards, but I will say that I notice dating advice for men rarely suggests that men consider settling and instead tries to give them tips to improve so they can date the women they do want.
enail says
I don't know, most of the straight women I know who've had trouble with their dating lives seem to spend a lot of time being told they're too picky and should settle more, that they need to change their appearance, and even that they should be less assertive or act less intelligent to attract more guys. It seems to be a big source of angst for them.
As Eselle says, friends tend to say reassuring things like that the people of their preferred gender are missing a great person by not dating them, but that's not really advice, it's friends being supportive.
LeeEsq says
Men get told to settle a lot to and that our expectations are to high. I've been told this personally.
enail says
Oh, sorry, I wasn't trying to say that men don't get told this, just that women get told to work on themselves and don't necessarily get sympathy either.
eselle28 says
Oh, men definitely get told this. But, as you said, they get told lots of other things too. It seems like guys get a huge grab bag of potential things to try to change from standards to dating methods to conversation skills to appearance, which I'm sure gets overwhelming, but which I'm also personally jealous of.
Also…this may just be perception, but I think when women get told to settle, they sometimes get told to settle harder than guys do. I most often see men advised to tweak a couple of expectations. Women? Well, the last time I asked a guy to glance at my online dating profile, the first thing he said is that it's unreasonable to set my upper age limit in the mid-40s, and that I need to raise it to 55 or 60 (literally old enough to be my father) because decent guys in their 40s don't get stuck dating average-looking women in their 30s. There are whole schools of dating advice that tell women not to care about anything except whether a man is willing to commit to her and treat her reasonably well. And when I say anything, I mean anything – not education, not being employed, not being the same age, not having similar interests, not appearance, not hygiene. Granted, this theory doesn't treat men so kindly either since it posits that a man who really loves you will fix those things once you grant him your attention, but it's pretty depressing advice. I think that's a little harsher than most of what gets told to men, as guys at least get offered a glimmer of hope that they can date people they might actually like.
LeeEsq says
I think that men get told to settle pretty hard, I was once told to give up all my expectations regarding looks and this was from person who acknowleged that I was at least somewhat easy on the eyes. I'm not exactly stunning but I'm not bad looking either.
I also think that men are made to feel guilty about not wanting to be what I call the Saint-Boyfriend. Its kind of like the male version of the Magic Pixie Dreamgirl, where the man is supposed to rescue a woman from all her previous bad relationships and be the perfect partner. Men who do not want to date single-mothers, and I'm one of them, get hit particular hard and are made to feel horrible.
What your told about age limits is very harsh and stupid. I think it comes from the idea that women are "supposed" to like older men.
eselle28 says
Fair enough, I don't think anyone should be told to give up all appearance standards. I'll say that while I've suggested that you reconsider what you're looking for, I'm mostly suggesting experimenting with one thing at a time. And I'll point out that you've been given a very wide variety of advice – perhaps an overwhelming amount, but much of it not focused on settling. (You know, one thing that might help people give you advice is for you to think of some changes that you would be willing to make and for people to evaluate whether they're good ideas.)
I'd agree men get that. Women get that too. We're supposed to have maternal instincts and think the kids are adorable and fall in love with them, and a woman who's not open to dating an otherwise good guy who has kids is going to be called a lot of very harsh names. I have one acquaintance who's still upset with me after I (fairly gently) said that I didn't think her brother would be a good match for me for that reason.
In any case, no point trying to out pity party each other. How about my final conclusion be that both genders get told to settle equally, but that there's a dearth of non-settling advice for women and a wider variety of aspirational advice for men?
Jenn says
I think that depends on what you mean by settling. Dan Savage often says that 'settling down means settling for' but I don't think he's saying that you should accept bad relationships. Only that you have to accept that the perfect fairytale relationship doesn't exist. That people are flawed and all relationships are going to require some degree of compromise.
eselle28 says
Oh, and for sure. That's not what I'm talking about. I think it's occasionally necessary for people of both genders and all orientations to accept that their partners will have flaws and that they can't plot out exactly how the relationship will go, and that sometimes dating advice needs to mention that.
I'm talking more about some of the big ticket issues mentioned above, and particularly the implication that someone doesn't deserve to have any choice in who their partner is and should be willing to tolerate anyone who will tolerate them. That kind of thinking is poisonous and tends to over-state the importance of being in a relationship.
LeeEsq says
Wasn't there a book several years ago that got flack because it was encouraging women to settle for Mr. Good Enough? I remember seeing interviews about it.
@kleenestar says
I read that book. The part where she was suggesting women settle was actually quite sensible. What she called "settling" was actually more like "go for values rather than for a laundry-list of superficial things." The rest of the book was … awful.
LeeEsq says
Yes, when I hear settle I think it means don't focus on things like breast size for men or height for women or hairiness for both. It doesn't mean go for anybody who will have you and isn't a completely awful human being.
eselle28 says
Eh. I've read it too, and I've read some other things the author has written. There was a core of good advice in it, but it's basically an unstable, unhappy person telling other people to as she says, not as she did herself.
I'd point out that three years later, she continues not to have settled for anyone, and she's also written an excruciatingly cruel account of dating someone who was overweight, including enough detail for the man to identify himself and respond. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2010/02/lori…
And…well…while I do think it's good for people to double check their standards and make sure that they'd really rather be alone than be with someone with whatever characteristic, I tend to think that a lot of the "settle!" advice can be similarly hypocritical.
LeeEsq says
The problem with hypocritical advise is that a lot of it is decent but its hard to take it seriously because of the source.
eselle28 says
Oh, absolutely. I would say there's sometimes a substance issue with it as well, though, because a lot of it seems to concentrate on the decision point and doesn't really look at what happens once the settling has been done. I think there's a bit of an assumption that once the choice has been made, all those things stop mattering and true love takes over. Sometimes that happens, especially when the hangup was something like "enjoys tennis." Sometimes you end up with a couple where one or both people aren't attracted to the other or deeply resent something about the other person.
What would be really nice is to get some perspective from someone who has settled and who's quite content with it, but that's like looking for perspectives of people who've had children and then regretted it. No one with any desire to preserve their current relationships would be public about those feelings. So the only people promoting the message are the hypocrites and, on the other side of things, people who have settled or felt settled for and had it turn out badly.
eselle28 says
Yes, there was, though I think the discussion was a bit more complicated than that. There are some other issues with Gottlieb's writing, as well as they way she chose to interpret marriage statistics and her focus on upper-income, well-educated women, who for the most part do tend to be married when compared to other groups of women.
Beyond some fairly valid critiques of the basis of her argument, some of it's just frustration because we hear this so often, often from the Lori Gottliebs and Patty Strangers of the world who don't actually do this themselves. In comparison, when was the last time there was a major book published telling men the same message?
Rei says
Whoah. Have you ever even glanced at a women's magazine? The cover is always completely full of "Moves to drive him wild", "Why didn't he text back" and "Moves to get a hot ass!" Women are pretty much constantly told what they need to change about themselves in order to attract a man.
I'd argue that "Nobody owes you sex" is a message aimed at straight guys because they're the ones who need to hear it. If a woman isn't getting laid, she knows it is because she isn't good enough.
Also, is this thread seriously comparing the decision to utilize a sex worker to the decision to have a child solo? In what way are those remotely the same thing?
LeeEsq says
Do women who are not getting laid no that they aren't good enough? There might be more of them than straight men but I've encountered the female equivalent of the nice guy enough to know that not all women are blessed with the clue stick. There are women who are an unrealistic view of themselves and what sort of relationship they should be in.
isdzan says
Some do. Some definitely do. Although, just like men who aren't getting laid, if they lowered their standards to include all men, they might get laid….by someone they are not attracted to. Basically the message to men and women is to accept less than they want and it is one situation where both men and women are getting told the same thing. "Take what you can get or die alone", usually attached to some piece of marketing to sell that one product that will solve everything.
It sucks for both equally, I think
CmE says
This is completely disingenuous. None of know Lee in the slightest. You can't possibly have any idea what sex with a hooker would do for him. Only Lee himself can know, maybe.
It amuses me when people claim to be sex-positive, pro sex work and workers' rights, etc, yet consistently argue that no man should ever buy sex nor no woman ever sell it because reasons. The reality is that sex for nearly everyone is a need – not for survival but for well-being. There are willing providers happy to sell it: if you want to, buy and be happy.
I admit I am in no way sure, but I at least feel like's Lee's sexual frustration and cooped-up desire leaks through in almost very post he writes, sometimes bursting through right out into the open (no bad puns please). I doubt it's doing him any favours. There are arguments against, for sure – he's a lawyer, discovery is extremely unlikely but theoretically possible – but I don't think making up theories about Lee's head in the future is one of them. "Go to Nevada" has merit.
eselle28 says
It's true, none of us know Lee. We've all read a great deal of what he's written about his feelings about sex and love, though, so I think it's a little unrealistic to expect people to draw no conclusions as to that. You're doing so, after all.
That being said, I'm of two minds about it. I think visiting Nevada (or Amsterdam, which might be just as easy of a trip) would be helpful for someone who's sexually frustrated to the point that it's interfering with dating. I don't think it would be especially helpful to someone who's focused on things like romance or the social validation of having a relationship. It seems like there might be some of both involved here.
Dredd says
I live in a place with legal prostitution, and going to a brothel would be as easy as going to the local kebab shop… but I feel like if I do that i'll be admitting failure.
LeeEsq says
If you want to know how I really feel, what I feel is enormously frustrated. My mind is constantly filled with fantasies and desires for love and sex and I feel tremendous pressure because I can't get either. I need a release. People on this thread already pointed out that "you need to get laid" to me but its not that easy. This pressure probably shows up on dates more than I intend and its probably hurting myself. I'm in a bind, my wish for romance and sex is acting as stumbling block on my quest for such. You have to want these things but not to much because that hurts your chances.
BTW, there was a massive anti-prostitiution raid in NYC today. Its like the universe is mocking me and telling me that there is no easy way out and you have to take the long and hard path to what you want.
eselle28 says
I think I've said this to you before, but I do think you need to work with your therapist with trigger management. It seems like it's pretty common for you to either get carried away with idealistic romantic fantasies or to do the opposite and to build up negative, unhappy visions of the future. I'd say that the raid might be an example of the latter. You don't seem all that keen to pursue the legal versions of that option, so being upset because you're reminded that sex work is locally illegal doesn't seem like a very productive train of thought.
That only treats the symptoms of the frustration, not the source, but I think if you could get into a calmer state of mind both dating and deciding what to do about non-dating ways of pursuing sex might be easier.
enail says
Since people were mostly responding to the concerns he himself had expressed, about having to tell future partners and about being found out (and, for both of these, there were arguments made both for and against), I don't think there's really all that much wild speculation going on here.
Akai says
Wait, so why is it disingenuous for people to theorize that seeing a prostitute might not actually solve the underlying problem, based on what Lee has said and their own feelings about the general merits of the action, but it's totally fine for you to say that doing so is going to be helpful, based on the same things? What's the difference?
Johnny Doe says
I've done it myself, with an extremely attractive woman, and I make more than enough $$ to do it on a consistent basis. As far as the opinion on sex workers, I don't have any issue with girls doing that, as long as they are safe and they are ok with what they are doing.
I'd be lying if i said I did not enjoy myself when I met her, and I thought I wouldn't care because I am single and I'm not cheating on anyone and I am being safe, but I was really, really upset a few days later because a separate girl who I took out who didn't call me back for a second date.
I thought I had genuine feelings for her and was really, really hoping to get a second date, but got the complete wall of silence, so I went to call an escort, figured I would feel less needy and upset about it.
The thing I was most upset about was I thought if I made enough $$ to sleep with an attractive woman that would be heaven, and I'd never feel bad about lack of dating or anything. I was wrong.
I was surprised that I cared at all after doing it, because I thought if I had a sexual experience with a beautiful woman, I would completely not care, but that wasn't the case. I think sometimes just sex by itself can, not always, but can leave you feeling more lonely than before you had it. But again, that's just me, some guys would be stoked just to get some.
I just realized that a woman that I am interested in reciprocating my attention, that really does like me for me, is one of the best feelings I ever have experienced. Just going on a date, where there is no strings attached, you just want to get to know each – it really is the greatest, most cool thing to me, and a girl is making plans to see you, not anyone else, is one of my favorite ones to experience with MOTAS. If you as a guy, really, really care about a woman being excited to spend time with you, to like you for you, getting an escort is in no way shape or form, going to diminish that feeling. And also, my first time I did it was NOT with an escort, it was with a girl who really wanted to sleep with me, so I wouldn't recommend it to guys who have never had sex with a consenting partner.
I wasn't thinking about it at all the day I met the escort, but 2 days later, my feelings for someone else came flooding back.
At that point, I think I realized I have to try to date, and try to get out there again, and thats what I need to do now. It's not going to be easy, that's for sure – I have alot of issues, but its the only way I can get that feeling back again – I won't get it any other way – not through my professional accomplishments, which I am extremely proud of at the moment, or through a beautiful escort.
My advice to Lee – don't do it man, keep trying.
LeeEsq says
Yes, thats my feeling to. Why are people getting upmarks for saying the same thing that I'm posting and I'm getting down marks?
My psychologist basically compared to falling off a horse when your trying to ride it. You either give up completely or keeping falling down till you get it right.
One of my biggest fears is getting much too little much, too late. Like the scene in the Last Unicorn where Molly is angry at the Unicorn for not being there in her youth when she really needed it. I want now, not latter. The more I have to wait, the less of a chance of getting the type of relationship that I want is going to occur.
Johnny Doe says
I've read your posts in detail Lee – and this is just my opinion, because I have experienced the same feelings you have, and probably on a deeper level, because I don't go out on dates nearly as much as you do.
I get the vibe from your posts that you don't enjoy yourself at all on dates, as in having a good time, good-hearted fun for yourself, irrespective of a second date or physical intimacy from the girl. For me, I am beginning to realize that my total lack of dating has made me so overinvested in the tiniest things, that it isn't really possible for me to be nonchalant and having fun for myself – when I went on my most recent date – I was so consumed by coming off properly, being a super cool guy, impressing her, that I didn't really have that much fun, and most of the date, especially following dinner, was just stiff and awkward.
In all fairness, had I done things different, I may have ended up with the same result – wall of silence after the date concluded, but I still do regret it and wish I would have been more focused on having a really good time for myself, and genuinely getting to know my date better – two things I didn't do, because I do want to give it my best shot, whether or not it ends up going somewhere.
So now, I am hoping if i get to go on a date again, my new goal is strictly to have a good time, for myself, and not care too much about the rest. Some of my friends told me they just don't like the idea of dates, its too formal and too stiff and I should just bring a girl by their house next time so we can take their boat out, and I'll act the way I do around them, just relaxed, so I am considering different things right now (of course, lol, I need to get a date first, but at least I know what to do if I get one)
This may not be what you need to do, but you and me can both agree your deep need and frustration for intimacy, affection, and sex from women has brought you no closer to it than you are right at this moment. So you got to figure out either a different mindset, different actions on a date, or both.
And give yourself credit, you've gotten a lot of first dates – in my experience, some girls just will NOT go out with a guy unless they are somewhat interest, however minimal, meaning they won't go out with a guy they dislike but agreed to go out with in the moment – if her feelings change, she'll cancel for flake without rescheduling (some girls, not all, this just from my personal experience and that of my friends). I would go as far as to say getting a date that shows up is half the battle in itself, that can be a huge challenge for many guys, because many of us need to get numbers, many of which do NOT turn into dates, and not be frustrated about it.
When I read your quote Molly is angry at the Unicorn for not being their her youth when she really needed it, I get the feeling that you will still have those feelings of resentment and bitterness over your experiences even after you get into relationship, if you get one – the relationship isn't going to make how you feel right now disappear. They are so deep and ingrained no amount of affection from a female is going to fix it, no matter how strongly you feel that it is the solution to your frustration. Do you whatever you want, but consider that perspective going forward.
enail says
This is great advice, but just so you know, most women will be very wary of going to the house of their date's friends on a first date with a stranger. For a first date, stick to public space.
Ethyl says
To say nothing of *getting on a boat* with a group of strange men. Yikes.
johnny doe says
Hello Ethyl, I should have explained myself better. My main point was that my friends (married couple) told me that dates can be just too formal and awkward, and they suggested bringing someone over so its just less of a date and more hanging out and having fun. So I'm just trying to figure out how to accomplish that state of mind, not necessarily through acting on their suggestion.
My friends live in a very, very nice complex, where the neighbors are very social with each other, that's right on the water, and we take an electric boat out onto the harbor, which is really amazing and beautiful. I've actually driven it a few times myself. 90% of the time I hang out with them, there are no guys besides me and my friend – its us, his wife, all her girlfriends. Yesterday when I went out it was 2 guys and 3 girls total. That's the type situation I was thinking it *might* be ok to bring a girl she would be interested, because everyone is totally safe and friendly and the girls typically outnumber the guys. Some of my female friends have already seen the boat because I showed it to them on my iphone and they want to come check it out when our schedules free up.
I was there for Thanksgiving, and a neighbor knocked on my friend's door, and invited us to go out on his boat, and we all went together.
I absolutely would not invite a girl somewhere where its just me and a bunch of my guy friends.
enail says
If it's someone you know socially and have already chatted to a bit, this sounds fine, and it could also be a good way to get to know acquaintances better in a relaxed way and see how you hit it off if you're not sure if they're someone you'd like to ask out or not.
For a complete stranger, the invitation to someone's house might still be a red flag, though. But it sounds like you've got this down already.
johnny doe says
yeah, the woman's safety perspective is one I've been clueless about too long. . on the few dates I have went on, they always involve meeting in a public place, separate cars. On occasion the girl will ask me to pick her up, but 99% of my dates, public place, separate cars. I really prefer to take one car or a cab, I don't care who is driving, which I have also done before, but if a girl doesn't feel comfortable, that's fine too, I don't mind driving to meet up somewhere at all.
One date years and years ago did involve a girl coming to over to my friend's house for dinner that I had never gone out on a date with, just like you said, and oh man, it was red flag central. I was a broke student, and I didn't have enough money for a real date, and she wanted it to be a double date, and I just didn't have enough $$ to cover four people at a nice place, and I was really embarrassed to say it because she was a professional, so I just cooked dinner and asked my friend if i could use his apartment lounge, which was a really nice one, so I thought this wouldn't look like a cheap date, and I never gave any thought to what it would look like from her end.
I thought just by texting her very early in the day hold off on dinner because I cooked something, which she responded to by saying "oh u made something?" that she would know that I was inviting her to someone's place, but she didn't start asking until she got there 'its an apartment?', and she really freaked out and called me and asked if she should have brought pepper spray, and I reassured her several times that she was totally ok with me, and eventually told her that I was just cooking dinner for her and her friend in the community lounge, but yeah, there were alot of red flags that you speak up popping up in her head.
She had also suggested a double date and brought her friend and I had brought my friend, so I figured she was already comfortable with the idea of seeing me, and she relaxed after we had dinner, and even did the dishes, but I would never, ever do that again, if I don't have money, I'm not going out, or I'll make sure I have enough $$ for decent plans in public.
I think it depends on the person, I have met some girls who I am not dating who have been to my place, and they are ok with me picking them up, in fact they prefer it, and some places I have lived girls have knocked on my door and invited me to their place for a party.
From my own experience, its really high end apartments and condos where girls and guys are totally ok going to each other's places and their isn't much fear there for something going wrong, but more for social situation, not date.
I think that might be because the screening procedures to even get considered for these places is pretty thorough and includes a criminal background check, ability to pay is not as important as ensuring no one with a felony conviction gets approved for tenancy.
I myself have lived with 3 girls at one point (much younger than me as well, with no parents- drugg addicts), and almost had one female roommate at one point, and there's never been anything sexual about it – not in my head anyway. I think when I lived with them for four months, we maybe had a total of 2-3 conversations when I happened to be around for dinner.
johnny doe says
I think its ironic, but my really deep insecurities about how women see me in dating/boyfriend/sexual context that go back to my childhood is why now alot of girls do feel safe around me (and maybe some don't, I just don't know about it) and have been totally ok with living with me, even though I am a guy.
When I am with my friend who I mentioned in an above post, his wife's friends all the time ask me if i was ok taking them home when I leave, which I have done quite a few times, which I never thought of as anything but a ride.
Very sadly, there is one guy who was coming around that DID try to touch one of our friends in her sleep on a vacation trip. Because I had gone out with these group, slept on their couches, and their house, taken drunk girls in my car many times when I was designated driver, it never, ever occurred to me that there were guys out there who would actually try to do something like that in a social circle, where everyone knows who you are. Fortunately, nothing happened and she was totally ok (she's tough as shit in general and might beat my ass in a fight), but after that, I totally saw why some girls are very wary about being around guys without a set meetup and exit time, even if its just friends.
Some of my friends have girls meet them at their place for a date, but the idea is NOT to hang out there, its to go somewhere in the area together by cab or walk.
One time years ago a woman I went out it warned me she had pepper spray before she got into my car, and I just laughed and said 'you're totally ok with me', and I was empathetic. After awhile though, she made more and more comments about guys being predators and rapists. Initially I didn't care, but the more and more I heard, I just became uncomfortable with those jokes because I did think they were somehow associated with me because I was a guy.
The final straw for me was her friend telling me at a house party that if I hurt her in any way, she'd chop my balls off, followed by group laughter and a nervous smile on my face. I stopped calling her after that. We just made out a few times drunk and never slept together.
Sometimes, when I think of old movies and TV showing the 1950s, I wonder if girls and guys considered safety issues in dating as much as today. I always had a picture in my head of a guy going so what time should I pick you up, going to the girl's house, meeting her parents or roommate, figuring out a curfew, and making sure she was back by that time.
eselle28 says
Just responding to the last paragraph, I think that in the 1950s, a much higher percentage of women lived at home or in fairly strictly-regulated dormitories or "women's hotels." If you live with protective people or with a literal guard at your door, I think it's easier to be relaxed about someone knowing your address and seeing how that person interacts with your parents or the person announcing visitors might even be a bonus. Of course, there were other women who lived alone or with roommates, but I think eventually there were enough stories for norms to shift a bit.
Personally, I'm pretty insistent on taking my own car on first and often second dates, but I wouldn't make a big deal about it in a pepper spray sort of way. Part of it's that I'd rather not have someone who I end up finding creepy know my address, but a lot of it is having some bad experiences when I was younger with wanting to end a date and having trouble convincing the guy to take me home (of course there are cabs, but that means 20 minutes of sitting around and dealing with him).
Johnny doe says
yeah for sure, I completely understand. Sometimes a person even having your email address or phone number that you later find out is creepy can be a drag.
LeeEsq says
There used to be all sorts of apartment buildings directly marketed for single people and these buildings tended to have very strict requirements regarding vistiors of the opposite gender. It was community policing of the no sex before marriage standard. Than the sexual revolution happened. I'm also fairly certain that landlords and superintendants were really happy to give up the job of guarding the virture of their renters. I could imagine that it was really annoying probably.
LeeEsq says
Honestly, I can say that I never had a woman mention off hand that she had pepper spray or have a threat of castration directed at me. One good thing about NYC is that its easy to pick a relatively safe and neutral dating spot thats inconvenient for both people. If a woman made any remark about pepper spray or something similar, I'd just cancel the date right there.
johnny doe says
Thanks, I just posted it more along the lines of I'm considering different things, but I will definitely keep that in mind.
FormerlyJay says
Johnny, you seem like a good egg.
johnny doe says
Thank you 🙂
LeeEsq says
Gentleman horndog, that’s part of my thinking on why it isn’t a good idea. It could easily lead to more issues that it solves. The other issue is that these things do have a way of coming public and often lead to negative consequences.
Cait says
I know you said it wasn't really an option, but I'd also like to point out that no-strings-attached sex with a friend is even more likely to cause problems. Because then you've got friends-feels mixed up with pants-feels. And no easy or immediate way to back out again. I actually think that being able to have sex with only bare minimum of emotional strings is Advanced Level.
LeeEsq says
Yes, I'm stuck between in what seems to be a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. My sexual frustration is definitely causing problems with my dating life. But there is no easy way to relive that, no way that doesn't lead to another sit of problems.
nihilinitio says
I just had a thought, reading this. Have you considered visiting a sex club? Often they are kink or swinger oriented, but it could be a way for you to get some needs fulfilled in a no-strings attached way, in a social environment that is highly discreet and nonjudgmental. Hookups, if any made at such places are based on atttraction and are not (as far as I know) economic transactions, so theres no danger of illegality as you would get from an escort. Unless you're strictly vanilla, it might be an option for you to explore.
LeeEsq says
I probably lean towards the vanilla and I'd at least want to start there. Basics first.
nihilinitio says
A swingers club might work for you, then. There are a lot of vanilla folks; they just like to share. You shouldnt have too much trouble meeting a lady who wants straight up sexing.
Gentleman Horndog says
Erm. I hate to be a wet blanket again, but this sounds like a bad idea, too.
I've been to a number of swingers' clubs. You CAN hook up as a single dude, but … it ain't easy. Mostly, you're going to be surrounded by couples looking for other couples, or for the occasional single women (who are going to command all KINDS of attention). A lot of your opportunities will probably come from couples looking for a guy to satisfy her fantasy of getting tag-teamed by two dudes.
Basically, in my experience, if you're a single dude, there are going to be a whole shitload of people there to have sex with other people who aren't you. If you've got a voyeur streak you're looking to indulge, or if you're game to be part of a group scene, potential fun. But if you're already struggling with feelings of resentment towards people who have more active sex lives than yourself, I'd be very wary.
But, hey. Just one guy's experience. Maybe things are very different outside of western PA.
eselle28 says
This is just my knowledge of New York based on some friends (really!) who used to go to them, but a lot apparently don't even let in single men.
Granted, I only know this because the male member of the couple used to pester me to go with him after things blew up between them, promising and promising I'd just be needed to get past the door. It's possible this policy does not actually exist. But I can kind of see that it might, since there are a lot of plain old nightclubs that don't let in dudes by themselves unless they get bottle service.
LeeEsq says
Both of these sound about right. It conforms to what I've heard to. I've never been to a swinger's club and probably imagine that I wouldn't function well in the club for various reasons. It would be overwhelming and dealing with a complete newbie wouldn't be much to their satisfaction. This sucks.
Gentleman Horndog says
Would a sexual surrogate be an option? This is well outside my experience, so I really have no idea where this falls on the Good Idea/Bad Idea spectrum. But in theory, sex with somebody who's helping you process some of your issues regarding sex sounds like a worthwhile possibility.
Assuming it is, you know, actual legit therapy, and not "therapy" with a wink, a nod, and a reminder that the cops don't need to know about your "treatment." Like I said, I have no practical experience to apply here.
Dr_NerdLove says
And there's at least one surrogate who I *know* reads this site who might be able to answer some questions.
LeeEsq says
I was actually something that I was looking into with my psychologist when I was in therapy. The problem that came up was the price. My psychologist asked around and there was pretty much one sex surrogate place that is seen as reliable. I found them expensive and I don't make chump change. You also have the same legal issues as prostitution.
In the psychological community, most psychologists find sexual surrogacy highly dubious and think that a lot of it is bulk. Lots of people go to psychologists because they are romantically and sexually frustrated and there is a rather heated debate on how professional it is to directly help people find love and/or sex. The consensus is that psychologists should not be matchmakers.
Akai says
I wouldn't think it would have the same problems as legal prostitution, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what your problems are. Elaborate?
LeeEsq says
Under the law, sexual surrogacy is prostitution because you are still paying for sex. Thats all prostitution is. The law doesn't care if its on the street, through a fancy escort agency, or through sexual surrogacy.
LeeEsq says
I also want to have sex with a woman who desires to have sex with me; not a woman who is doing this because she is going to make money.
eselle28 says
I'm going to suggest something far less extreme. Pick one bar near your work or home that you like tolerably well. Decide you'll spend at least two nights a month there hanging out and talking to people. Make friends with the bartender, but also try to talk to at least a couple of women every time you go.
This will be far less time-consuming than cultivating a second group of friends. It will allow you to meet some new people in an environment other than online. It will also give you access to quicker feedback than you're getting from your online dates. All you know now is that your online dates seem to like you well enough in writing, but that something is going wrong once you meet them in person. People in bars aren't in any sort of social contract to keep hanging out with you, so you'll get quicker and perhaps more honest reactions. And, hey, you might end up picking up a woman. It'll take a thick skin, but online dating takes that too, and it seems like a reasonable supplement.
Johnny Doe says
I'm going to try this for myself! Thanks eselle28
Rei says
Said policy TOTALLY exists. Even sex clubs that do let in single dudes will frequently charge more for them than for couples. This is not a realistic option for a male virgin looking to lose it, I think.
nihilinitio says
I've never been to a swingers club, so I will defer to your experience. You make very excellent points.
hrm, Lee, I got nothing, sorry.
Dr_NerdLove says
That's assuming he gets in. Most swingers clubs don't like dudes rolling solo unless they come highly vouched for by another member.
Gentleman Horndog says
Oh, wow. The clubs I've been to don't require vouching, but they DO put a strict cap on the number of single guys who may attend (requiring they make a reservation ahead of time) and have a pricing structure in-line with the crowd they're trying to draw. (I've seen stuff like single dudes $75, couples $25, and single ladies get in free.)
So if anything, it sounds like my experiences may be MORE single-dude-friendly than most.
So, yeah. Probably not a good idea.
Gentleman Horndog says
Getting publicly outed as a client is less common than the media would lead you to believe, especially if you're not in the public eye. But yeah, "Don't play if you can't afford to lose" is certainly a legit reason to be concerned.
Cait says
Lee's a lawyer. Like it or not, he's got legitimate career reasons to want to keep things private.
LeeEsq says
Most people who know me in real life are going to be very disappointed if they found out to because they don't see me as that type of person.
LeeEsq says
As I pointed out above, the NYPD just recently conducted a massive anti-prostitution raid according to the news.
Akai says
Not really relevant to legal activity outside of NYC, though.
Ethyl says
Also, all the information I'm seeing on this is about a "child sex trafficking ring." Soooooooo that really should not be affecting you or your outlook on this.
Akai says
We hope
isdzan says
I don’t think this is a solution, but if you really just want the physical act of sex for now to clear your head, prostitution is 100% legal in all Nevada counties except Clark (where Vegas is). The cathouse was one of the few points of interest in Wells when my Shoshone friend took me on a driving tour (the other was Quiznos). If you just need to clear your head of the pent up physical need, this is an option. You don’t need to tell anyone anymore than you’d share a random drunk bar hookup whose name you forgot.
If you feel that you really need more than physical release alone to get your head straight, I would consider stopping online dating for 6-8 weeks (or whatever) and work on cold and warm approaches out and about in your day-to-day. You need to figure out how to better present yourself in person and get the sexual frission going. You have mastered getting interest through messages online and probably feel more comfortable communicating in writing (lawyers are good at that), but it isn’t translating to real life.
You may or may not get dates, but you will definitely get practice communicating interest and maybe learn how to project the sexually appealing Lee. They will also give you more practice reading body language, because I have a feeling you are missing some cues of disinterest/date not going well. Doing real life approaches will also cost you nothing and give you immediate feedback. After doing this for a while, you will either meet someone or will learn some key skills for when you go on first dates with women you meet online.
Gentleman Horndog says
Am I a freak for thinking a brothel with an in-house Quiznos sounds fantastic? "That was some great sex. But now, I could really use … hey, sandwiches! And they're TOASTED!!!"
Akai says
Oh yeah, I know I'm not the only person who gets really hungry after sex (and sometimes before sex, although quiznos doesn't seem like the best choice for that). They'd make a killing, especially if they let you eat in bed.
Gentleman Horndog says
Another potential benefit of isdzan's recommendation:
Lee, a lot of us have speculated that, if the negativity we've seen from you here regarding sex and relationships leaks through in person more than you think it does, that could explain why you're not getting second dates. Taking that stuff off the table and approaching people just for the sake of having interesting conversations with interesting people could help sneak around that issue and give you more practice being your best self.
isdzan says
Ohhh! GH, business op for sure. They are apparently reopening the gold mine near Wells, so there should be enough business for 2 cathouses and 2 Quiznos 🙂
Gentleman Horndog says
Dude. I have no idea if you bring anything to the table as a small business owner — I certainly don't! — but I'm TOTALLY willing to go in on this with you.
Let's apply for a loan now!
Akai says
One of them could even be a Panera!
eselle28 says
Who are all you people who want healthy fast casual after sex, and how do so many people think it's appropriate to eat sandwiches in bed? There's so much wrong here I can't even process it.
Clearly the proper combination is cathouse/pizza parlor and the cathouse/Americanized Chinese place.
Dr_NerdLove says
No, definitely not Chinese.Think about it. You've just had sex. You want something equally naughty. Clearly you need a burger joint. Something you eat with your hands and get messy with.Preferably with craft beers.
eselle28 says
But the cartons are so convenient for eating in bed!
That being said, a bacon cheeseburger and a couple of craft beers hits the grubby greasy factor perfectly. Damn, now I want a bacon cheeseburger and a couple of craft beers for lunch.
enail says
Mu shu would do nicely, though. In fact, you may have gotten me to reconsider my vote.
Akai says
You can eat chinese food with your hands too, and you'd probably get even messier 😉
enail says
I would have gone with cathouse/burger joint myself.
eselle28 says
Sounds like the people have spoken!
Gentleman Horndog says
"Clearly the proper combination is cathouse/pizza parlor"
Chuck E. Cheese. But with hookers.
COME WITH ME MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS WE ARE ABOUT TO MAKE ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD.
enail says
0_o Thanks a lot, GH, this idea creeped me out so hard I may never have sex again!
enail says
Or eat pizza, for that matter.
Gentleman Horndog says
Then I'll refrain from mentioning what the giant animatronic rat is capable of after bedtime.
isdzan says
*pokes out eyes and goes for brain to erase image*
Although…..it might cater to some out there….
eselle28 says
Do they have clowns at Chuck E. Cheese? Please tell me we're not going to attempt to mix clowns and hookers.
Gentleman Horndog says
Good Lord, woman. I'm sex-positive, but I have my limits.
Dredd says
Huh. Prostitution is legal in my area, and I could use some cash, and its a better idea than my 'goth brothel' idea.
enail says
OTOH, goth brothel is WAY better than Chuck E Cheese brothel!
Dr_NerdLove says
You only say that because you've never tried to screw to “Bela Lugosi's Dead”.
enail says
I'd still take that over the animatronic rat. *shudder*
Jess says
That sounds like the world's worst combination of machine and fuzzy fetish to me.
Ethyl says
Hey, I resemble that remark!
isdzan says
I’d be less than useless. I have no idea how you’d get staff, pricing, atmosphere, etc.. All I know for sure is make sure there are no bedbugs, because bedbugs are evil *side eye at crappy old apartment *
BiSian says
Amen isdzan! Bed bugs are more disgusting than animatronic rat hookers…
isdzan says
I guess I was thinking more of a sexual history biopsy. I definitely agree that being able to talk about likes and dislikes and the funny thing that happened on the way to orgasm is very healthy and important.
GH’s question on a first date would get a, “none of your dammed business, stranger” reaction from me. Then again, I also come from a culture where only my family and the healers know my true name, so my privacy level is higher than average 🙂
Gentleman Horndog says
FWIW, I only ask that question if the conversation has already taken a turn for the saucy. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be Apache to be put-off by it as an opener. 😉
Kate says
Let me try to use an analogy of applying for a job…
Say you're an employer interviewing two different people for a job. Let's say both of these candidates are currently unemployed single parents with two kids and have no way to pay rent next month. Which of these two candidates are you going to pick?
1. Hello. I've been working as a department head for the past two years and before that I worked in HR for four years. I am familiar with using [requisite software] and have excellent organizational skills. I'm applying for this job because [previous company] downsized, and now I'm looking for a job in a small working environment where my coworkers and I can really work as a team.
2. Hello….well, I really love your company, and I think you guys do a lot of good things….I'm really good with people and I think I can be a good asset to your company and I really REALLY need this job, I have two kids at home…
It's a rough example, but you get the picture. Both people equally want/need the job, and the employer knows this. The key is that the first one gives a sense of what s/he can bring to the table in a relationship ( a business one here, but a relationship nevertheless)…s/he's not asking for handouts s/he's saying "I'm interested in starting a relationship with you, here's how I can contribute". The second person is going "Hi I need a relationship, please give me one, please please please!!". In other words, "needy". It's asking for a favor/beggin, and it's not the employer's (or potential partner's) job to give out that favor. They, too, are going to be a part of this relationship and they have the right to lay down the terms in which they're willing to engage in it.
Here's another example. When I was studying abroad I met two different guys. The first guy was obviously interested. He liked to…hover…he'd stick around near me so much it got awkward, smiled a lot, and when he tried to hug me I tried to gently tell him no, at which point he broke down sobbing.
The other guy I met at a social get together, and towards the end of the evening he approached me and said "So, I want to ask you something….I think you're very attractive and…I hope I'm not freaking you out because don't want to make you uncomfortable, but…would you maybe be interested in sleeping together?"
While ultimately I chose to remain celibate (and still am), guess which one of those belongs on the very short list of guys I have seriously considered sleeping with, and was vastly more comfortable with? The second guy was was upfront and honest (INFINITELY appreciated)and gracefully accepted my decline…he had is own desires, obviously, but he was ALSO taking mine into consideration. The first guy wasn't a bad man…he qualified as nice, and I know he was just socially awkward. But ultimately it was about him trying to get emotional support/validation from me without really taking my wants or comfort into consideration, and collapsed into a pile of self-pity when I rejected him. The second guy was a bit bummed, sure, but was able to move on in a way that was emotionally healthy.
Johnny Doe says
I totally collapse into self-pity! Thanks for sharing the female perspective on it, something I most definitely need to work on =)
LeeEsq says
On to the second date problem. How do you know if your connecting or not? I haven’t been able to connect with all my dates, nor did I want to connect with all my dates. However, I did have several dates where I thought I did make a connection because we had commonalities and I thought I expressed passion through those. There seemed to be “chemistry” but apparently not.
An example, in spring, I had a date with a woman on Okcupid. Our commonality was our love of art. We were chatting on OkCupid for over a month and mainly about art and she liked my opinions. Our date was going to MOMA and seeing two exhibits. We continued our conversation about art and each other and got along. At the end of the date I told her that I liked her and wanted to see her again. She agreed at least then. When I contacted her again, she declined politely. At least from my perspective, I thought it was a good date and I found her rather attractive. What did I do wrong, if anything.
Cait says
Could be nothing. Could be that her ex decided to get in touch with her.
Connecting isn't just about shared interests. In fact, it isn't even at all about shared interests (sure, if you guys do nothing the same you might get bored, but that's not what connecting is about). It's about being emotionally open. You don't have to (in fact you shouldn't) bear your heart out to her, but you should at least be engaged on an emotional level. I think from what all I've heard from you, that's a problem. Women want to know that they're being understood, and the way they feel understood is by having their conversation partner engage with them on an emotional level. Easiest way is mirroring: She tells you a story and she's laughing so hard before she gets to the end that she can't finish it. Clearly you laugh too- that's mirroring for beginners. Neutral faces, poker faces, the sorts of things that men are taught to do simply won't work. She's evaluating how you'll be as a romantic partner, she wants to know if she's going to have to explain every single feeling every single time or if you're going to be clued in enough to get her.
Do you read novels? (I know, being a lawyer is a lot of reading and it's been a lifetime and a half since I've picked up a book for fun) Novels are a great way to practice emotional empathy, because (well written ones) call on you to empathize with someone who only exists in written words. It's a great way to practice understanding other people.
LeeEsq says
I read like a fish.
trixnix says
I got "told off" for my poker face last Saturday by a woman who spent a lot of time making the general conversation (in the group) about me and grabbing hold of me. Apparently she was trying to "get a reaction out of me". I was frankly taken aback by her touching me. Her touching me wasn't unwelcome. I just couldn't work out what it meant if it meant anything at all. It was certainly not what normally happens to me.
I learned that being un reactive was a good way to survive being made into a joke, figure of fun, having the mickey taken out of me etc. Unless their the type going in for physical or sustained bullying, most bullies stop when they realize they can't get much of a reaction out of you.
Hidden behind the un reactive person is actually quite an emotionally empathetic person. I just learned to hide and I am kind of nervous about smiling because if I get a smile wrong it's really not a good look on my face. My sister told me that very little shows up on my face. Eye contact can be dodgy and I can be having the best day ever and still look miserable thanks to my resting face. Sometimes it felt like being told off no matter what I did so I just sort of left things with the poker face as the default.
I'm quite clued into how people are feeling. I knew my former friend was very angry when she sat across from me a while back. It just feels sometimes like you can't win with emotional connection and expressiveness.
Cait says
No, you definitely can win. Most people aren't being bullies. If they aren't, you should let your guard down.
Anonyleast says
That can be much easier said than done. Emotional or physical survival habits learned when someone is a child are really, really hard to break as an adult. I've been working on it for a while now, but I still I am hyper-aware of where everyone is around me and I have to constantly remind myself it's okay to show emotion around my friends.
Gearhead says
I’ve found that the best cure for bullies is self-deprecating humor. If someone makes a mean joke at your expense, follow up with one of your own (about yourself). It takes their power away by showing that they can’t ruffle you. Almost always works for me.
CmE says
I'm pretty sure that the best way to practice emotional empathy and to understand other people is just to spend lots of time with people. If you do that and are still having problems, then novels are not really going to help. In fact novels – especially ones written in the first person – are something of a blind alley because they give you a direct window into a character's mind, when no such thing exists in real life.
There is no constitutional man-code that says"go around with a silly poker face". Mirroring etc is just basic gender-neutral social skills 101. Everyone who is at least reasonably socially calibrated does that stuff.
Akai says
See above for discussions of situations in which emotional openness is maladaptive. I've seen that sort of thing happen with both boys and girls, but when they get older, girls are rewarded for opening up emotionally in a way that boys aren't, in many places.
Marty Farley says
You chatted with her online *for a month*? Why?? You should have been asking her out by the third or fourth message, and if the third or fourth message doesn't occur until 3 weeks in (or scheduling for a date takes a month in advance), then she was probably never that into you but seeing if you'd make a decent friend/had enough chemistry in person to surmount such a mistake. If a guy is talking to me for that long with no mention of a date, I emotionally friend-zone him. It's just too long to get to a date and keep my hopes up.
Cait says
…Yeah, the fact that she initially said yes and then turned him down suggests to me (and this is me reading waaaay into subtext) that she thought you were doing "art friends" stuff and was somewhat taken aback that you were actually still interested in her. But again, that's going off a one-paragraph description of what went down. You could have been signalling to her that it was a date the whole time and she could have known it was from the beginning.
LeeEsq says
We did want to meet sooner but we had work related scheduling problems. She had to go away for work than I had to travel for work.
isdzan says
Well it is online dating. You might have been one of many she chatted with in the month and might have picked someone else. Or she might have accepted a job in Singapore, decided to not date because something else came up in her life that would not leave her with free time, been diagnosed with an illness, etc.. Or she had a better date.
It isn’t all about you (plural, universal you not Lee you), although when we date we tend to think it is. People have a whole lot of other influences/factors in their lives that will move them in and out of dating or closer-farther to wanting a relationship with a specific individual.
Mel_ says
Yeah, seriously. I had a guy I'd gone on two seemingly good dates start talking about date number 3 like it was a given (spontaneously, with no prompting from me) at the end of date 2. Who then proceeded to suddenly get too busy to ever see me again the very next day. Sometimes you just can't figure these things.
Paul Rivers says
Wow, that's just weird and annoying….
fakely_mctest says
Hey, sorry for contacting you like this. Tried to create a new forum account but it wouldn't logout my main acc't. I was permabanned for spam but I'd like to get that ban lifted when you get a chance? I swear I was just trying to make a comment on Hugo Schwyzer of all people in the universe.
eselle28 says
One of the rough things about online dating is that it almost always comes with some dates that you thought were good, but didn't result in anything. I mean, that can happen with regular dating too, but it's much more common online because you have a lot less information about what's going on with the other person.
There are those dates that you thought went well, but that the other person viewed as the equivalent of friend-zoning. The convention for a date is that you're expected to stay for a certain period of time and be polite even if you decided very quickly that you weren't interested, and most people will attempt to have a good time while they're there. If you have a history of getting friend-zoned, that might be what's happening in some cases. It's just that your date doesn't feel the need to give a friends speech because there's not other investment in the relationship.
There are times when there were some things you didn't know about stacked against you before the date. I just got an email from a guy I'd had a fairly nice date with a couple days ago saying that he'd thought it over, and that he's more uncomfortable with dating someone older than him than he'd thought. Sometimes you're someone's experiment in going against type, or their first baby steps into dating after a breakup, or online dating was something their friends pressured them to do. Those people don't come with warning labels, so their dates aren't aware it was always an uphill battle.
And then, most frustratingly, there are dates where the other person really did have a good time…and it still isn't enough. Unfortunately for the rest of us, online dating works really well for some people and they have lots of options to choose from. While they're messaging one person, they're falling for another, or they simply have so many options for upcoming dates that they're in no hurry to schedule a second date with someone who they had a decent first date with but aren't head over heels for. The fact that your date was so delayed might indicate that some of this was happening there – I've found that people who really, really want to get together will make the time for it and that one of the reasons people drag things out is because they're feeling out another option. I'm pretty sure this has also recently happened to me, so I do get the frustration.
Basically, online dating comes with a lot of conveniences, but you do need a thicker skin for it than you do with other kinds of dating.
isdzan says
I had online dates where I was shocked the guys wanted a second one. In my mind we completely didn’t connect, had nothing in common, I only kept the conversation up to make time pass faster, and was laughing because not laughing was awkward. In their minds it went swimmingly.
Reminds me of Rashomon (sp?), where people witness the same event, but come away with different interpretations, none of which is wrong.
eselle28 says
I've had that happen too. Last year, I went on a date with a guy whose first five minutes of conversation convinced me that we were all wrong for each other. It didn't come across online at all but apparently he defines himself as a small town, old fashioned country boy, a type I tend to avoid, and then he made back to back comments disparaging my profession and one of my favorite hobbies.
He not only asked me on a second date, but was very confused when I turned it down and kept pressing and pressing for explanations. Turns out he didn't even remember me saying that I wanted very different things in life or that I enjoyed the things he disliked, and interpreted me making small talk and asking him some questions about his family as interest, rather than a way to make things pleasant while we finished our drinks. It's kind of hard to analyze a date when you're on the inside of it, especially when you don't know the other person well enough to have much insight into their behavior.
isdzan says
Very true. If you are in it you are too close, especially if you are interested in the person. I can’t help but think people see a positive experience when they are really interested in the other person, but gloss over the things that are not going well or things the date says that show a bad match (like your old fashioned country boy) because they don’t want to see them.
Then there are the folks that won’t admit they are doing anything wrong (side eye on big cousin who can’t see that his a**hole behavior is why he is single), because that would mean that the problem starts with them. It is so much easier to blame it on the other person!
Dredd says
yeah i went out with somebody, thought we connected… got a message the next day saying there was no connection
Anonyleast says
Likely something like this happened at some point during the date.
Him(spoken): "(Insert terrible joke here)."
Him(thinking): 'Oh God, that joke was horrible! Why did I make it? WHY!?!'
You(thinking): 'That joke was bad. But, it's been awkward when I haven't laughed'.
You: *laugh*
Him(thinking): 'She laughed at that? SHE LIKES ME!'
LeeEsq says
This sums it up nicely. What to you do when your only source of dating is online then? Nearly every woman I know in real life is unavailable or not interested me that way or one reason or another.
eselle28 says
I try to remind myself that I'm not an omniscient narrator, that other people have their reasons for doing things, and that it ultimately doesn't do any good to be angry judge people too harshly unless they've actually done something unpleasant to me.
I try to look at the things I can fix (I think I might have chattered a bit too much on the date in my third paragraph, and that I may have seemed either too negative or like I was trying a little too hard – or both – in the date I mentioned in my fourth paragraph) and then blow off some other things as things just not being right and first dates having a high natural failure rate. When I stop being able to do that, I take a break from online dating, which sometimes means putting more effort into other kinds of dating or socializing and sometimes means just taking a breather and concentrating on other things.
FormerlyShyGuy says
One of your hobbies is dancing right? What kind events do you go to?
Between classes and clubs and studio events I am constantly meeting new people. If there is no one interested in me today there are always new women that I could hit if off with tomorrow.
LeeEsq says
I do meet a lot of people dancing. The issue is this though. Dancing is an expensive hobby, so a lot of the people who do it trend much older than me because they have money. I was at Disco America in June and out of all the non-professionals, I was definitely the youngest by at leats ten years. There are women my age and younger who do dance and I see them at events and while they dance with me and seem to like me as a person and dancer; they do not seem attracted to me. It might just be me but when I watch them dance with other men around my age or even older men, they seem to put more sexuality in their dance than they do with me. I always feel that they treat me a bit more chastly. I've also noticed that they seem more willing to step aside and get to know other men better while with me its thanks for the dance, next partner or just a shorter chat.
LeeEsq says
Elaborating on this further. Even if with older women, the relationship seems more chaste than with other young dancers. I'm treated in a more maternal or friendly manner while when I see older woman dance with younger men it seems to be more of "cougar/straping young or at least younger man" type of feel, more flirty and more sexual.
Akai says
Do you have any sense of why this is happening? Of the differences between you and the leads treated in a more sexual way, for instance?
LeeEsq says
I think at least with the leads my age, its because they are more traditionally handsome than I am. I'm not ugly and I work out but I'm short, only 5 feet 5 inches, and very hairy. I tend to be around the same height or even a bit shorter than many of the women. Many women might feel more comfortable showing sex appeal around some one bigger than them.
FormerlyShyGuy says
What venues do you go to dance? I noticed that same problem when I go to events at or related to the dance studio. When I go to a Salsa clubs that are separate from any studio there are people of all ages to with the average to be in the 20's and 30's.
You live in New York correct? From what I have seen online there are many high quality clubs in the area.
isdzan says
I doubt it is a height issue. At my samba studio they also do salsa, tango and other partner dances. The most desirable leads are the ones that drip sensuality with every move. The top guy is about 2 inches shorter than me (I am 5’4″) and is not conventionally attractive, but when he dances….Oh when he dances *swoon* Needless to say he is never single
You seem to have difficulty communicating sexual tension/frission, so it probably is the same when you dance. Your partner isn’t going to get all sensual if you aren’t cuing that way. You are the lead after all
LeeEsq says
I was going to put this in to but decided against it. I think I mentioned this in other threads but I do not believe that I come off as a creep. At the same time, I don't radiate any type of positive sexual tension/frission either. The good thing is that women generally feel safe around me. The bad part is that its hard generating sexual attraction. I think a big issue is that when I see men that are really good at communicating sexual tension/frission, I also see a lot of douchebag behavior that I have no desire to emulate. The ability to generate sexual tension/frission seems to require a lot of douchebag behavior from my perception.
@kleenestar says
Maybe you could find a guy who oozes sex without being a jerk, and use him as a role model?
Dr_NerdLove says
Funny you should mention that :https://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/04/nerd-role-models-pick-up-artist/
Marco Pura says
I don't know about Lee but personally I never met a guy who fit that description. Perhaps that's a problem- no older male role models in the family other than two male cousins who lived overseas and I saw only sporadically…Parents and parents friends were from a different time socio-culturally speaking. In fact I don't remember my parents ever flirting or being even subtly sexual.
LeeEsq says
The problem with most men that ooze sex appeal isn't that they are jerks necessarily. Some are nice. What they are, and this is something that I have no desire to emulate, is cocky and not gentle. Even the Doctor is cocky, especially the 9th and 10th Doctors. I see myself as modesty and gentle and think those are good and necessary values to be an ethical and moral person. Combining modesty and gentleness with sex appeal is kind of hard. Its one reason why I don't like DNL 's idea of antagonistic flirtation, its not how I want to deal with other people if I can avoid it. I like having my friendly, open countenance.
isdzan says
From your descriptions of yourself I can see you doing more the tango version of sexy as opposed to the salsa/meringue (sp?) version. The more formal and restrained passion.
In fact, while dancing might be a good time for practicing building sexual tension because it is a safe and non-creepy place to do it. You can add some sensuality without squicking out your partner because it is a formalized setting and activity where a little sizzle isn't out of place.
Wish I could tell you how to do it, but all the dancing I know well is ceremonial and partnerless, except for samba, which is not ceremonial but still partnerless
LeeEsq says
I'm actually more of a ballroom dancer than anything else. I specialize in the five international standard dances. I do salsa, hustle, and east and west coast swing. I've tried tango and really don't like it as a dance. I wasn't bad at it but it wasn't my thing.
isdzan says
OK I have only seen a little salsa and swing (no idea what type) and it seems like you could spice those up a little bit as practice for first date sexual tension. It doesn't have to be all Rico Suave. Maybe a little Fred Astaire?He definitely communicated attraction when he danced
I am sure there are more recent examples, I am just not familiar with the dance world 🙂
LeeEsq says
You know that there is a partner version of the samba. Its part of the Latin school of dances: samba, rumba, cha-cha, paso doble, and jive.
isdzan says
I have heard but I am such the beginner level that we are singletons right now. I also think the troupe is all women, but that might be because only women are in the advanced class?
I am not sure I could even figure out how to dance with a partner. All the dancing I know is like this: http://youtu.be/dpK3j4WTX3Y (you can't miss me. I am one with the dark hair and skin 🙂 ) and I am not great at it. Coordinating with another person? Wow.
LeeEsq says
I see what you did there.
Partner dancing is a lot easier than people think it is. All you really have to do to be adequate is being able to tell your right and left apart. If you can do that than practically anybody can do simple partner dancing with practice. It gets harder latter but even thats approachable with practice.
isdzan says
Sneaky huh…actually I am the one in red an purple who just kind of bounces through shots on occasion because I forgot the steps 1/2 way through. The camera avoided me 🙂 The ones who are awesome are the older ladies, the bigger girl in black, the girl in white and purple and the one in the sunset color dress
I might try partner dancing at some point, but if my capoeira sparring skills are any sign of my ability to coordinate with a partner, my partner might want to dance in steel toes
CornedBee says
And you have to be able to find the rhythm of music (not complex rhythms, just the basic 1-2-3 or 1-2-3-4 pattern) without some heavy base kick spelling it out for you. I have seen people in beginner classes dance at a completely wrong speed, because they couldn't do that. But if you do any dancing at all already that shouldn't be a problem.
enail says
Paso Doble is a very sexy dance!
LeeEsq says
I only wish they used a wider variety of music.
@kleenestar says
I don't know, Lee – maybe that's just a matter of whose sex appeal you, as another guy, notice. How could you find the men who are sexy and gentle and see what they do?
For the record: my husband is gentle and modest, and I find him devastatingly sexy. If anyone's cocky in our relationship, it's me. 😛
LeeEsq says
Considering my taste for old movies; I like Cary Grant and David Niven. More recently I like Jason Schartzmen's character Jonathan from Bored to Death.
@kleenestar says
Those are some good examples! Are there men in your life who can be inspirations for you in this way?
(Cary Grant! Oh, Cary Grant!)
LeeEsq says
Not really. Most of the men that I know aren't in the oozing sex appeal character. The ones that I do know that have sex appeal are in the cocky version of it.
@kleenestar says
So: maybe meet some men who could be role models for you?
eselle28 says
I'd second kleenestar's suggestion to try to focus on people in your life who seem to channel a bit of that kind of charm. I think that's especially the case with older films – you're going to need to see someone put a more modern spin on the theme if it's going to work.
enail says
One thing you could do with gentle is to slow things down and add a little intensity, bringing a hint of sensual tenderness into your manner.
Akai says
Yeah. The idea of gentle but sexy sounds really appealing, but I'm stumbling on how to articulate how to actually achieve it. Slow and intimate sound like good adjectives for that.
isdzan says
Sorry to come back and beat a dead horse, but your inability/reluctance to convey sex appeal and build sexual tension is probably going to kill any chance you have of getting into a light/casual relationship. Think about it. The women who are into a light/casual relationship that may or may not go long term are going to put a higher value on immediate sexual attraction/chemistry/sexual tension. Why? Because they are not thinking, "Is this guy marriage material?", they are thinking, "Does this guy seem like someone I could have fun with for a while?" The ones who are willing to overlook the lack of pants feel on a first date are probably more like your ex and looking to fill the boyfriend/husband role and more focused on the long term, because in that situation and with that type of person, your other qualities (stability, responsibility, etc.) matter more.
I kind of fear that as things are now, the women who will go on a second date with you might be more like your ex, a road you do not want to go down again.
Just a hypothesis
Jess says
I agree with this, as a dancing "follow" I follow the "style" of the guy I'm dancing with. If his body language is loose and sensual like a cat, then I dance to match his. Sometimes I'll stiffen up to discourage someone I really don't want to act sexy with. If I'm dancing with a guy that is more coolly technical with how he is dancing, then I will match what I perceive as his comfort level.
If he's not leading sexy, I feel like he doesn't want to be flirty/sexy with me, and that he's not attracted to me. It is a lot easier to feel attracted to someone who is giving you the sense that you are attractive to them. After all, "female rejection" comes in the form of being ignored and treated chastely. Women raise your hand if you've gotten the "You're a the kind of girl that is great to hang out with, just not date" brush off.
I can also confirm that some of our hottest guys in our dance scene were the short guys. You could tell a lot about them by the way they danced.
So, is stiffness an issue? If so, how do we get you to loosen up and start projecting your sexiness outward instead of trying to tie it up inside you with duct tape because you want to avoid the creepy factor?
FormerlyShyGuy says
"I agree with this, as a dancing "follow" I follow the "style" of the guy I'm dancing with. If his body language is loose and sensual like a cat, then I dance to match his. Sometimes I'll stiffen up to discourage someone I really don't want to act sexy with. If I'm dancing with a guy that is more coolly technical with how he is dancing, then I will match what I perceive as his comfort level."
Exactly! I try to communicate what I type of dance I want to the follower, and I sure as hell do my best to "listen" to see if she is comfortable with and enjoying a more sensual dance.
isdzan says
Oh no, not creep at all! That is not what I am saying. You probably come off as neutral/cold rather than sexy/sensual. Sexy/Sensual in a dance lead makes the partners respond the same. It is true for first dates as well.
No creep involved.
Dredd says
Yeah the second date thing bugs me… i've had about 6 first dates this month… and 2 second dates. Got another 3 dates coming up and I'm worried they'll all be one and done… there won't be a second date.
Krullis says
So there is alot of things that I need to do to be the best I can be.
What can I expect FROM a girl? Why does everything seem to hang on me all of the time?
If dating is about mutuality then why can't I expect the girl to build attraction and sexual tension as well?
I like you and your advice nerlove. But sometimes it feels like you don't question toxic norms when it is the guy that suffers from it.
Anyway, I have vented enough.
It would be awesome to get your advice on escalation from a former hermit. I am that Lous C.K. joke, where he confeses that he doesn't know how to be smoth and just blurts out "can I fuck you?".
Peace,
Krullis
@kleenestar says
FWIW I think it's really important for women to approach guys, too. I'd love to see DNL do an article on "How can I behave to get women to approach me."
Dr_NerdLove says
I'll be writing about something close to that on Friday.But as I've said before: a large portion of why women don't approach comes down to a mix of socialization (women are taught not to approach, men often react badly to women making the first move) and a greater level of potential danger that's not equal to the potential reward.So it's more than just “how to behave”, it's about societal shifts.
@kleenestar says
You know I'm on board for societal shifts!
Paul Rivers says
I think one of the topics that's been greatly lost in society is the art of flirting. Flirting used to be how women told a guy they were interested in him, without actually "approaching" themselves. A girl flirting was saying "I want you to be more aggressive if you feel like you want to", a girl who was flirting then stopped was saying "I was liking this but it's going to fast / to far / I changed my mind".
When I meet girls who always seem to have dates, but never actually "approach" themselves, they were usually always very good at flirting.
@kleenestar says
I'd love to see guys learn how to flirt that way, too.
Paul Rivers says
Lol, well, if girls approached half the time then I'd agree with you. 😀
eselle28 says
Well, but as a woman who sometimes does approach men, I can say that if guys did attempt to do a little flirting or send some signals of interest rather than either making flat out approaches or ignoring me altogether, I'd probably make more approaches. It is sort of a vicious cycle, especially since the guys who are confident enough to do that sort of thing are usually fine approaching and the shy ones who rely more on women making the first move often have negative or indifferent body language.
@kleenestar says
Sure, and there are valid (if shitty) cultural reasons why that's the case. I'm just not sure why you'd go out of your way to reinforce that crappy pattern instead of trying to undermine it every chance you get.
Mel_ says
You know, I completely agree that it'd be great if people had more ways to learn how to flirt. That was always something I find incredibly hard–I have no trouble flirting with a guy I'm already in a romantic relationship with, or being friendly and warm with a guy I liked and was open to dating, but I could never figure out how to be "flirty" with a guy I didn't know well without coming across as desperate. So I usually ended up hoping friendly and warm would be enough to do the trick. (Didn't seem to be.) A few lessons would have helped a lot! 🙂
Paul Rivers says
Yeah, it's something weird about American culture where flirting and people being somewhat obvious about desiring the other person is almost always depicted as bad.
If a girl is flirting in a movie, she's usually either the Femme Fatal who's going to try to kill you later, or she's a good character – but trying to manipulate someone. If she's being flirty on a date and they go back to his place, she's going to pull out a knife and try to stab him or something…
Mel_ says
What I've most commonly seen in the media, when it's a "good" character, is the flirty woman as Painfully Oblivious Girl, who's portrayed as amusing or outright pathetic for throwing herself at a guy who's clearly not into her… That was what I was more afraid of coming off as.
@kleenestar says
Sorry, I just want to add: that doesn't mean that there aren't things that guys can do to up their personal odds of being approached by a woman, even if they can't single-handedly change the issues on the societal level. For example, I didn't hesitate to approach my now-husband for a date because he'd shown me, in other contexts, that he wasn't going to enforce gender norms and punish me for making the approach.
Amber says
YES THIS. I am much more likely to approach a guy if he's demonstrated that's he's feminist or no-pressure-guy. I'm much much more hesitant to approach a guy who might have the "if she asked me out, she must be dtf" attitude.
eselle28 says
Yes, I think any woman who's in a guy's social group is going to watch for a guy's behavior around other women who approach him when she's thinking if she's going to make a move. In addition to the more obvious stuff like not saying it's a turn off when a woman does that, or on the other hand assuming a woman who approaches is an automatic lay, I pay attention to how the guy talks about other women who don't interest him. If he's prone to describing the looks of women who are interested in him in cruel ways, I'm going to worry that he'll talk about me the same way to others. A guy who liked to complain about how no women liked him would be a bad bet as well, especially if I'd been flirting with him.
When it comes to strangers in bars and in public, I generally feel way more comfortable starting a conversation if I see he's chatting with the bartender a bit or making an occasional comment to people around him who aren't obviously with him – I take that as a signal he's open to talking to someone in general and that starting a conversation isn't likely to be either a nuisance or a signal that I want to drag him off to the bathroom for a quickie.
Marty Farley says
The girl probably is building attraction and sexual tension…. you just don't realize it. A big reason is that girls are socialized and groomed to do this from birth…. be nice, smile, mirror body language, show interest in the other person. Girls are taught that such behavior is polite and the expected norm, so most well-socialized women have been doing "pick-up techniques" their entire life.
Also please take into consideration how much work most women put into their appearance, another thing we are taught from a young age that guys only start sorting out once they want to have some sex. For example, how much money have you spent on underwear in the last 6 months? I have spent about $200 for two bras and 15 pairs of underwear. And that's JUST underwear. Should I start laying out how much I spend on hair products, make-up, and clothing? And comparably, I don't even spend that much time or money on my looks!
The thing is, this society raises us to *expect* those things of women, that you don't even really notice when a woman is engaging in attraction and sexual building. We're just taught that this is "the norm." It's a double-edged sword; guys have to teach the same things to themselves (grooming, social skills) that girls are taught from a young age, but then the work girls put in is ignored.
@kleenestar says
Oh, Marty, that is SO SMART. I can't +1 it enough.
isdzan says
Seconded.
Women put a lot of work in to look like the person someone would want to date. This is part of building sexual tension. It can take a couple of hours to even get the casual-jeans-Tshirt-sneaks-no makeup look. And that doesn’t count hours at the gym or exercising, hairdresser, etc.. Then there is looking engaged and attentive, trying to give the impression of not being one of those/bitchy/crazy/high maintenance/baby obsessed marriage harpy/fill in blank for negative female characteristic of your choice women, trying to calibrate if you talk too much/too little, etc.
Trust me, the girl on the date with you is putting in just as much thought and effort as you are both before and during the date!
Krullis says
I agree with you that I girls help build attraction and tension. I over edited my post and that kinda got lost. What should've been there as well is that what expectations should i have when she is obviously intome and have been flirting back and been engaging the whole date through.
When that silence comes up where we both catch each others eyes. our breaths quicken. Bodies closing in. Mouths open slightly. Is it really my fuck up if I don't kiss her. If I hesitate and it becomes akward. When that happens alot of girls becomes mad at me. And I wonder why thehell she couldn't have kissed me instead?
My comment don't seem to load.
enail says
Some people have very rigid gender expectations, so you can judge what's likely from them to some degree by their general attitude to gender roles in dating (and avoid dating people who have gendered expectations you're not cool with). But some people are also just plain old jerks. I'd say that anyone who becomes mad at you for hesitating at kissing is just a plain old jerk.
Akai says
I dunno, I can see being confused that someone partially went in for a kiss and then stopped, and reacting as though frustrated to cover up hurt. Not that this is to say it's Krullis's fault, just that the other perspective might be something other than "but I can't do the kissing! that's the MAN's job!1!!!1"
enail says
That's true – we don't know how it came across to the other person, it could have felt like they were being toyed with and reacted to that. That's why communication is everyone's friend 🙂 But since he's said that they also didn't react well to his attempts to communicate about what was going on, I'd guess there's something more going on there.
Akai says
I guess it reads to me more as immaturity than anything else, you know?
@kleenestar says
Thanks so much for clarifying!
No, I don't think it's your fuck-up if you hesitate. You haven't done anything wrong, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a jerk.
You might not be communicating the things you want to communicate – e.g. it might come across as "Well, actually, I'm not into you." But that's very different from a fuck-up, if that makes sense.
Rei says
It's very possible that she's dealt with a guy who reacted badly to that. If you want a girl to take the lead and kiss you, say so.
LMM22 says
If you hesitate while moving in for a kiss, the other person is going to sense that. Kissing is a mutual thing; if the other person pulls away or stops at the last minute, I'm not going to continue to initiate — I'm going to assume that they don't want to kiss me. (Hey, enthusiastic consent. It's a thing.)
And, yes, that is going to be frustrating. It's not just you who is insecure on the first date — if the woman likes you, she's been trying to read your cues just as much as you've been trying to read hers. If you hesitate, she's going to assume that *she* did something wrong. If a guy did that to me and then went on to explain that, I don't know, he was confused about how I was feeling, I *am* going to be mad. Was my body language not clear enough? Was I supposed to *make* our lips meet?
Every single thing you do on a first date sends a message to the other person. Not being able to read my very clear body language — hesitating at one of the moments that I'm making myself the most vulnerable — says something about you, and it's not something that you probably want to be projecting.
If you want to be clear about someone else's body language, ask them if they want to kiss *before* you start to move in for a kiss. Don't hesitate in the moment. The other person is equally insecure, and pulling away when *they* see you as going in to kiss them sends the message that you're disinterested.
FormerlyJay says
I am someone who grew up with frugal parents who dressed me in hand-me-downs and discount clothing 3 sizes too big for 18+ years, and also lectured me frequently on only dating boys who valued me for my mind, not my appearance. I was STILL hyper-conscious at how much stuff I was doing wrong and how unattractive and unfeminine I must have been for not dressing like those "other girls." Guess what I started doing as soon as I went to college and got my own income? The training still gets to you even when you've been raised the exact opposite of it.
I just laid out $38 for a single tiny bottle of foundation. Another $33 for a skin cleanser set that'll last me maybe a few months. $20 for hoity-toity conditioner. My bras – not even especially high-end – must be over $250 in total, plus probably another $100 for the good panties. Any boy who goes on a date with me who wants to whine about how I'm not doing enough? Can go home and cry over his unmoisturized hands and baggy Hawaiian shirts.
Unless he's Weird Al, I'll definitely accept Hawaiian shirts from him.
enail says
He's telling you what you need to do because you're the one he's giving advice to. There would be no point in him telling the people who he's not addressing should be doing. This blog is more aimed at men than women, so most often the 'you' he's addressing is men (though much of the advice works for both genders, and he does sometimes make it gender-neutral or address women specifically).
He does have some articles about what you shouldn't put up with, what to look for that the other person should be doing for it to be a positive interaction or good relationship. Maybe you'd find those helpful? He frames it in terms of what you can do about it, though, because his general framework is advice for the person reading.
LeeEsq says
To add to what others said, we are kind of in a confusing period where the old gendered dating patterns are not really favored but nothing has replaced them. Women aren’t obviously going to be eager to embrace the joys of being rejected. So you get her company and her making herself attractive for the date. Anything else comes latter.
Akai says
Yup. Women are never rejected. That doesn't happen at all.
LeeEsq says
I did not say that women are never rejected. I said that many women don't actively approach men because they know that they can be rejected, they know it hurts, and aren't eager to embrace the pain of rejection. Since the current courtship dynamic favors men approaching women, why should they approach?
@kleenestar says
Actually, the research I've read suggests that fear of rejection is not why women don't approach. The two big reasons seem to be fear for their safety and fear of being punished for violating social norms. Getting turned down is a GOOD scenario for a woman who approaches.
Akai says
This. "Men are afraid of being laughed at, women are afraid of being raped and murdered."
Mel_ says
What kleenestar said. Also, shocking fact, if you're a woman in a place where it's normal for guys to try to pick women up, and you're looking around smiling with open body language trying to seem approachable, and all the guys around ignore you and/or approach other women instead… that's rejection too. *Especially* in a society where the current "courtship dynamics" say that if a guy's interested in you, he'll approach you.
FormerlyJay says
Also, women who approach men risk acquiring a "slutty" or "loose" reputation. I've seen this used against women by men who turned them down. Of course, I've also seen this used against women who turned men down. I think some men just don't like women very much.
isdzan says
Good point, Formerly Jay. Also some people, male and female, love pushing the blame for not getting exactly what they want, when they want it, onto other people or society or whatever. It is so much easier to shake your fist at the universe and blame men, women, monkeys, sun spots, the Illuminati, etc. than to admit that you are the problem (universal you, not any specific individual)
Mel_ says
Wait, you're an admitted "former hermit" who barely knows it's not okay to just blurt out a request for sex, and you think you're in a position to judge whether women are doing enough work to attract you? Maybe you should get a little more experience with actual women before you decide how much effort they're actually putting in. Tip number 1: Making negative assumptions about women like that they take it easy and expect guys to do all the work in dating is a pretty sure way to be unappealing to women.
Others have pointed out that most women put in a lot of effort to look attractive to men in general. I'll also mention that any given woman has no reason to put in additional effort to build attraction with *you* specifically unless you have already made yourself attractive to her. Presumably you wouldn't go around trying to build attraction with every single woman you see, only the ones you find appealing. Women get to do the same thing. Just as you get to not bother trying to build chemistry with women you don't find attractive, they also get to not bother trying to build chemistry with men they don't find attractive. Nothing unfair or toxic about that.
If you find no women are interested in building attraction with you, the likelihood is that you're turning them off in some way, not that they're just lazy.
Paul Rivers says
I don't know if Krullis has other posts that reflect a certain frame of reference, or if there's some other theme I'm not aware of, but I definitely agree with the idea of his post.
Having no expectation from the woman makes the guy seem like he has no standards. I see the question as just asking for advice on what those standards should realistically be. At it's most basic level standards include – she can contribute to at least as much of the conversation as you do (you may have to start conversation off, but you shouldn't be contributing > 50% of the conversation overall), you don't find her unpleasant to be talking to, she makes some attempt to bring up other topics when the conversation dies off, she doesn't continually return to negative topics again and again and again, etc).
The idea that the man should do all the work and the woman just completely sits back and enjoys it is ironically **both** incredibly selfish – *and* inneffective, as women tend to see him as "anyone will do"/doormat/etc.
The actual quote was "attraction and sexual tension" but I bet that includes "romance" and "interest" as well.
If you expect that the woman contributes nothing to your date, you're ironically saying one of two extremes – either the woman is simply being selfish and one-sided, or the guy is in completely to "hit that ass" because all he should care about is whether she's "a fine physical speciment".
A woman who sits there and expects all entertainment to be done by the guy – all the conversation, all the entertainment, etc etc, is contributing nothing about her personality, so all she has to intrigue the guy is how she looks.
Cait says
I think you're right about this: a date is a two-way street. Don't conflate making the first move with behavior on the date (even though I'm clearly not against the woman making the first move). Once a woman has agreed to go on a date with you, she's got as much responsibility to make it go well as you do. And you shouldn't just let her sit there, because no matter how gorgeous she is, you want to see what she's got to offer, what she's going to offer.
Of course, we all generally do this. Not always, but generally.
Paul Rivers says
Yes, exactly!
Mel_ says
I don't think anyone disagrees that women should put in as much effort into and contribute to a date as much as the man. What we disagreed with was Krullis's characterization that 1) DNL is advocating that guys shouldn't expect the woman to contribute anything (nope, he's just focusing on what the guy could be doing because that is what the article is about), and that 2) society in general encourages women to hold to "toxic" view that they don't have to put in any work, and thus women don't.
In fact most women put in plenty of work. And certainly if a guy's on a date with a woman who expects to just sit there and be entertained, I think we'd all agree he's better off cutting his losses and looking for someone else.
Paul Rivers says
I just don't personally see him saying that.
"1) DNL is advocating that guys shouldn't expect the woman to contribute anything (nope, he's just focusing on what the guy could be doing because that is what the article is about)"
He write that –
"What can I expect FROM a girl? Why does everything seem to hang on me all of the time? "
And I think I know what he's saying, that it's a constant stream of what the guy should do with little about what the girl should be expected to do. It's demotivating, but it's also just a bad impression to get for the reasons above – you end up looking like a doormat if you don't have some sort of expectations of your own.
"2) society in general encourages women to hold to "toxic" view that they don't have to put in any work, and thus women don't."
I'm sure we'll disagree, but I agree with him. Most of the time when I talk to girls about online dating, they balk at the idea that they would do any of the planning or suggesting stuff to do. Not – by any means – all the time. I've talked to plenty of women who will suggest a location, etc, but even they will mention the feeling that they're somehow "lesser" in some way because they're doing part of the planning or suggesting something. Even if they think it's a stupid idea.
It's also true that men often don't have any idea how much work women actually put into their appearance. Or – sometimes – how much work they put into being in a certain mood to keep the attraction vibe going while dating.
"In fact most women put in plenty of work."
You don't know if that's true any more than I know what the guys on the personals are like. You or I just don't have the perspective to say what people outside our own friend groups are like, and that makes up the majority of people.
Many women put in plenty of work. But that's different than "most".
"And certainly if a guy's on a date with a woman who expects to just sit there and be entertained, I think we'd all agree he's better off cutting his losses and looking for someone else."
Well, that's part of what I mean. But seriously, I've dated one and been friends with several that definitely had the "sit back and wait for him to entertain me" mentality.
What I'm saying is – just like women try to weed out men who are not looking for what they're looking for (they're looking for a relationship and she's not, they're looking for a one night stand and she's not, the guy is perfectly willing to lie about anything to sleep with her, etc etc), guys job isn't just to entertain, it's also to weed out the girls who are just looking for the attention and entertainment, and spend their energy on girls who are looking for the same thing they're looking for.
I think the source of what he's saying is that all he gets is a constant stream of "guys should do more" in advice on this site or the internet, and he's complaining that there's little advice on what you should actually be expecting from the girl. Since women also say that they don't like guys without standards, personally, I don't even see where the controversy would be here.
I know my dating life improved greatly when I came up with a certain set of standards –
1. Don't go out with anyone where you bond more over negative topics than positive ones. If it starts in that direction, try to change the subject, etc, but if you can't find anything else to bond over never go more than "friendly acquaintence".
Paul Rivers says
2. The "3 strikes" rule – if your time is wasted by someone twice without a good reason, or 3 times regardless of the reason, stop putting any effort into it at all. They're saying they're not interested in you. Again and again this proved itself to me – it didn't really matter what the real reason was. Sometimes they were just flaky – but that made them incredibly irritating to have as friends anyways. Sometimes they were playing a devious game and lying about why they couldn't do something. Sometimes they were just really busy, but again it didn't really matter – they just didn't have time for new friends / new date / etc. It just doesn't really matter, putting more time into it is a lost cause.
3. Girls who believe that if they have strong feelings, that they shouldn't even consider your side of things make terrible friends, dates, or girlfriends.
Now, consider means "consider". She can absolutely consider it and then decide her feelings or opinion was still right / more important / etc. But there's a certain kind of girl who when she gets very upset she believes that everyone should bow down to please her because she's emotional.
This one definitely applies to me as well – I hold myself to the same standard I hold them to. And it probably applies to guys as well.
4. Related to #3, and this is something I used to be very, very bad at – an ability to let a certain number of things be at an "agree to disagree" level. I always used to think that if we just talked about something for long enough, or brought it up in discussion enough times, that eventually we'd all be able to reach the same "best" conclusion, regardless of whether that was mine or there's or a new different one. But at some point I realized that you can't get anything done that way.
I could go on here, but this is the general idea that I think the other comment is complaining about.
Mel_ says
Actually, Krullis had already commented again before you wrote this clarifying that what he was complaining about was his idea that women get more guidance from specific men if they're sexually awkward, and that women he's dated have gotten upset at him for not making a physical move. So I think you might be projecting a little here… and you might want to read what the commenter himself has said before you decide for him what he meant. 😛
eselle28 says
I don't think this article or anyone else is saying that a date should be a situation where a man does a bunch of tricks to impress a woman who sits back, bored, judging whether he's performed them well enough. Honestly, there are only two situations where I see this. The first is when the man really likes the woman and she decided a few minutes after showing up that she wasn't into him at all, and the rest is just marking time until it's polite to leave. The second is when the woman is actually interested, but is a boring, bad date who can't keep up her end of things. Neither of these situations should result in a second date, and it's rare for them to do so. And, yes, I've seen both happen with the man being the silent, unhelpful one and the woman being the talkative one.
I'm pretty sure this article comes with the assumption that people who are being disappointed are reasonably satisfied with the appearance and behavior of the other people involved and are wondering where they're going wrong. I suppose there could be an article on Signs Your Date Just Isn't Trying, but that one would end up being kind of a downer, since the only thing to do in those situations is to politely end things so you can go out with someone who does put forth some effort.
Paul Rivers says
"I don't think this article or anyone else is saying that a date should be a situation where a man does a bunch of tricks to impress a woman who sits back, bored, judging whether he's performed them well enough."
I think the commenter we've been responding to is saying that the impression he's getting is that that's what he's supposed to do.
"Honestly, there are only two situations where I see this. The first is when the man really likes the woman and she decided a few minutes after showing up that she wasn't into him at all, and the rest is just marking time until it's polite to leave. The second is when the woman is actually interested, but is a boring, bad date who can't keep up her end of things."
While I think there are other situations, I agree that those are 2 big ones.
"Neither of these situations should result in a second date, and it's rare for them to do so."
But if you're in the middle of a date and you're in this situation, it's helpful to realize that things aren't going well. It's time to change the topic, suggesting bailing on what you're doing now and doing something different, or even just cutting things short.
"And, yes, I've seen both happen with the man being the silent, unhelpful one and the woman being the talkative one."
Sure, I absolutely agree that this can happen the other way as well.
"I'm pretty sure this article comes with the assumption that people who are being disappointed are reasonably satisfied with the appearance and behavior of the other people involved and are wondering where they're going wrong."
On the article, yes, but I was just responding specifically to the above comment.
I don't think the comment above is complaing about just this one article, it's complaining at the level of "there are a million of them and they're all like this".
"I suppose there could be an article on Signs Your Date Just Isn't Trying, but that one would end up being kind of a downer, since the only thing to do in those situations is to politely end things so you can go out with someone who does put forth some effort."
I disagree. Not knowing what's going on erodes your confidence, self-esteem, and your feeling of having any control over your dating life. When I started following the small number of rules from above, I felt *much* better about things.
The reverse-gender parallel is advice for women about when he's dating or sleeping with her, but his feelings are never actually going to change into what she wants. Her one "maybe he'll end up liking me if I give it more time" relationship is draining in the same way that tens or hundreds of "maybe if I had just tried harder or done something different" experiences are for the guy.
eselle28 says
I don't think this is all of his complaint, since below he's mentioned a hypothetical woman with his dating problems and his belief that a guy would come along and guide her through them…which I have found not to always be the case.
If people generally feel that Signs Your Date Just Isn't Trying is a worthwhile topic, then perhaps we can have an article on it at some point. Although it's not a cheery topic, I can agree that it's sometimes quite useful to realize someone isn't into you fairly early on so that you're not disappointed later. I don't think it should be in this one, however, because I do think there are a lot of people going on relatively pleasant dates who are confused why they're not getting second ones and other folks who are frustrated at rejection and friendzoning, cases where the other person's disinterest is eventually made obvious.
The reverse-gender parallel for women isn't what you describe. That happens, but setting it up as the parallel misses the fact that women also end up on first dates with guys who cancel twice, show up late and unshaven and sloppy for the third attempt, make their dates do all the work of carrying on the conversation, don't attempt to be friendly or engaging in any way, or spend the date asking for advice or using it as a venting session. These are really quite gender-neutral problems. There are also guys who get caught up in dating relationships with women who aren't going to feel the way they want – this is particularly the case with rebound relationships.
@kleenestar says
Huh, the post came off to me as "If I'M interested, she should be working to help build sexual tension and attraction," not "If SHE'S interested, she should be working to help build sexual tension and attraction." The former is just … nope. I couldn't agree more with the latter.
Paul Rivers says
" I couldn't agree more with the latter."
I agree with this part. 🙂
I just don't read it as saying the other part. In this part – "Why does everything seem to hang on me **all** of the time?" I don't seem him complaining that he has to do work, he's complaining that he's getting the impression everything hangs on him *all* the time.
@kleenestar says
Well, it's true that everything always hangs on you, in that your behavior is the only thing you can control. This is true both for men and women!
eselle28 says
Yes, that's true. If there were dating advice that involved brainwashing people to like you more and to be better dates, I think the author would make a lot of money, and then be kidnapped by national security and never seen again.
Even if we're talking about identifying people who are playing with you or who aren't invested enough in a date to put in some work on it, it still all hangs on you, because all you can do in those situations is figure out how to exit them and avoid them in the future.
Rei says
My experience of dating is the opposite. Males may make the first move, but I'm the one who makes things "go" on the date. In fact, I believe this is the cultural norm.
The more work a man puts into the date, the more I like him. I've been on some dates where the dude sucked at dating, but he thought it was a great experience because *I made it fun*. So, they wanted another date, and I never wanted to see them again.
But here's the point. Dude comes onto this website, and is like "How can I get better at dating?" You can give him all sorts of advice, but you can't tell him "Expect the women you want to date to do x for you" because that's not under his control. Instead, be the best date possible, and if you find yourself with interest from a girl who is a *bad* date… well then you get to reject *her.*
FormerlyJay says
Dr. Nerdlove has been repeatedly asked to broaden the focus of his blog to directly addressing women geeks as well as male geeks. He has decided not to. As such, all the articles are going to focus on advice for…big surprise, male geeks.
Krullis says
I know how to flirt, I can get dates, I can get womens attention. What I can not do is escalate in a smooth manner.
I know that women do things to in a date. I responded to Marty Farley above us, if you want to know the whole gist of it. But I Misspoke on this. Also, I don't think me being a former hermit is something bad. I have noticed that I don'ttake alot of this stuff at face value because I learnt about this stuff when I was a little
So heres more info on my situation:
When I am in that moment where I know I can kiss her, I can see her looking at me like she waiting for me to kiss her… or do something. I become blank. I don't even chicken out. I feel nothing at all.
When I taught myself to be more outgoing and social. It took me maybe half a week before I could go up and talk to strangers, compliment them. It took me one full week before I could flirt with some girls, hold eye contact, get numbers and dates.
This was maybe after me being depressed and a recluse for seven years. It seems to me that I had enough building blocks or talent when it comes to the social part for me to work with. But when it comes to the sexual part and me taking charge of it. Nothing at all. I don't know where to start.
So I have taken inventory of myself:
Not asexual or gay(dont ask me how I figured that out).
Have I been abused? Yes. For a a period of my life, my mom kicked and hit me more then she hugged me. Lets not talk about school either. But heres thething.I have had years of therapy/meditation/ self reflexion now. I am Done with feeling bad about it. I can even see what it has thaught me. But what it has left me with is a missing puzzle piece to the human experience.
So, here's why I was a little bit snippy in my first comment.
If I was a she, and I taught myslef to becomemore outgoing and happy and flirty as I have done. This last step would probably be solved for me in one fashion or another. There would brobably be a guy to teach me and help me out. But as a guy I feel that I have no support at all. I feel a little jealous. I don't blame anybody for my situation. And I don't take it out on anybody. But thats how I feel.
I have expectations on me. And I feel like an asshole when I can't achieve them. every time I see dissapointment in a girls face. Every time she sends me an angry text the next day asking me if I was leading her on. And, honestly, it seems I make it worse when I try to explain my situation. Either they never calls again or she takes pity on me. But then I noticed that she starts to see me as a litle kid more then a person.
So, what should I do? How do I overcome this?
enail says
One thing you should do is not date jerks. I know that sounds flippant, and I don't mean to be, I know it's not always easy to know who's a jerk and who's not… but I think you should know that someone who gets angry with you because you're hesitant to take the lead in kissing and reacts badly when you explain your feelings is probably not a good person for you to date. So one thing I think might help would be trying to date people who are kind and who are willing to make some of the moves themselves, rather than expecting that you will always do that if you're interested.
It might help if you can figure out what's going on with you immediately before you blank out – are you feeling scared? If so, what do you think you're scared of? Another thing that might help is communicating more before you try to kiss. Do you think it might be a little easier for you, when you think she's hoping you'll kiss her, if you say "I'd really like to kiss you," and see how she responds before kissing?
Mel_ says
I'm pretty sure that women who have trouble expressing themselves sexually often aren't lucky enough to have a sympathetic man come along and guide them. Certainly women who are sexually awkward are regularly accusing of "leading on" the guy or seen as undesirably frigid and/or immature. *raises hand as someone who's had issues with this and knows other women who have too* I'm not sure why you'd assume this isn't the case, and I don't think letting yourself give in to resentful thoughts about the opposite sex is going to be helpful to your issues.
I definitely agree with others that any woman who gets pissed off at you for awkwardness you're better off not dating anyway.
You don't mention–do you feel the desire to kiss someone, or a specific woman, and times *other than* those moments when you see an opportunity and blank out? Or do you simply not feel the desire to kiss or get physical in general/with specific people at all? Because it is possible that you're asexual and simply want romance, and are pushing yourself to get physical because it's expected, or that you're not comfortable with that side of yourself in general and need to work on letting yourself feel that desire when you don't have the immediate pressure of acting in it before it'll come through in those situations.
If you do feel desire other times and it just goes away in the moment when there's an opportunity, I wonder if you might be putting too much pressure on yourself to spot those opportunities rather than just feeling how well you're getting on with the woman in general and then creating a moment when she seems into you and you are feeling the desire. Like enail said, if you're worried that if you don't have blaring "Kiss me" signs from her before you act that she'll be upset, you can totally preempt it with a "I'd really like to kiss you" or similar to make sure she's into it. I've had guys say things like that to me before a first kiss before, and I actually preferred it, because then the kiss didn't take me by surprise (and it can sound quite romantic or sexy if said in the right tone).
Rei says
So, you keep failing to kiss a girl, and then getting an angry text the next day? How many times has this happened? Twice? Twelve times? You should consider how solid of a pattern this is, and what exactly might be causing it. Hint- the answer is not: all women are the same.
As someone else on this thread has pointed out, stop blaming the fact that you don't have a kind loving sexual guide on your gender. Do you think that every abused woman with sexual hangups is issued a sweet, considerate guy to "teach her and help her out?" Heck no! She's more likely to end up with another abuser.
Instead, look at what YOU can do to
1. find someone who is sexually considerate
2. communicate your needs to this considerate person in a way that makes them inclined to help you out
So first, be honest about this supposed pattern instead of dramatic and self-defeating. Then look at the commonalities in the women you are dating. Then change it up. And finally, when you are out on dates, explain your issues in a light way- don't do your whole life story, just say "I'm a little shy. I'd really like a woman to make the first move." This might scare her off. It might not result in her actually making the first move. But if you OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND COMMUNICATE then she won't be mad at you for leading her on.
LMM22 says
See my comment above. If someone hesitates in a moment when I'm making *myself* vulnerable, then telling me — days after the fact — that they were actually interested but (I don't know) didn't think *I* was interested is going to be frustrating. And while it may not make me actively angry at them, it's definitely going to piss me off enough that I'm not going to go on another date with them.
ETA: Which is to say, I don't know the content of the messages Krullis is getting, but, depending upon how things go at the end, I could easily see a situation where most women would respond the same way. I suspect communication before the fact is more important here than finding a different kind of woman to date.
Kate says
In a perfect world, yes, women would be expected to build attraction and sexual tension as much as men. Heck, I would LOVE it if humanity could get to a place where women could be as sexually expressive as they want to be without suffering the consequences.
Tragically, to my mind, we live in a world where women are punished heavily for that sort of thing. Some women are able to managed it, but the fact is we live in a world where, generally speaking….
1. For women to be seen as "good"/"respectable"/"virtuous", they must refrain from behaving sexually
2. If she does display sexuality, people start seeing her as a "bad girl", with no in-between (see Madonna/whore complex)
2. Because of this, ANY sexual behavior on the woman's part is often mistaken for meaning she wants to go all the way…maybe she just wants a little flirting and kissing, but when the guy tries to push things further she slams on the brakes, at which point she gets treated to "whu…why were you leading me on, bitch!!??"
3. If something…ANYTHING…goes wrong, the woman will be blamed for it ("She was totally asking for it!"). Even if she was exhibiting no sexual interest whatsoever. (Was walking down the street. Walked into public social area like a bar. Wore a nice blouse to work). "So she got drugged and pulled into a back room? Ugh. What did she expect going into a bar that time of night?" "Well, your honor, I fired her because she's just too much of a temptation for me"
We women are VERY VERY AWARE of all of this, and given the wide variety of social dangers that come along with being sexually expressive, a lot of us just opt for waiting for the guys to make the first move and being selective about who we respond to. It sucks, and it needs to change, but that's how things are for the moment.
And hey, don't completely rule out being up front and honest…see my earlier comment on this thread. We like guys who can care about our concerns and desires as well as express their own ;).
@kleenestar says
Truth. When you add this to Marty's point about "the vast amounts of work that women already do are basically invisible," you've got a lot of very stuck women. It really sucks.
Gearhead says
Reminds me of a bit by Louis C. K. He tells men to imagine only being able to date half-bear, half-shark monsters and having to just hope that you find a nice one.
eselle28 says
This is one of the more gender-neutral pieces I've seen on this site. The only tip that doesn't apply just as much to women is approach anxiety. Women who aren't attractive don't get asked out, and women who can't build emotional connections on their dates or who can't keep up their part of the conversation don't get asked out on second dates. There are also lots of women who have decent enough relationships with male friends and coworkers, but who aren't viewed as dating material by any of the men they know.
The article is working on the assumption that the person asking for advice is interested in and sexually attracted to their date. If a woman isn't making an effort to look appealing, keep up her end of the conversation, smile, and flirt a bit, then you're more than justified in not asking her out or taking her on a second date. Most other men won't either.
Marty Farley says
"In short: if you’re constantly getting rejected, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and make some changes."
Yeah, the tough part is deciding if I should pay for liposuction or a nose job first.
Cait says
Ah, but then guys will just accuse you of being a botox-obsessed plastic surgeon junkie and label you high maintenance and reject you for having work done.
We can't win that fight, Marty. You know we can't.
Marty Farley says
I read the Blue Pill sub-reddit for giggles and rage some days, and last week there was a thread mocking the Red Pill Logic of "If a woman wears make-up, then it's false advertisement and she's trying to trap us and she's secretly ugly!….. But if she *doesn't* wear make-up, then she's lazy and has no feminine self-respect and no respect for her Red Pill man who she should be trying to please by looking her best!"
Run, hamster, run!
Cait says
Dance, dance for our amusement!
ThatDebra says
There is probably nothing more enraging than Red Pill in recent history (I actually don't literally mean that). The way it tends to bleed through into other subreddits is even more astounding. At this point I'm simply glad that I haven't come across these people IRL, but the thought that some of them might actually secretly be like that is enough to make me slightly paranoid.
LeeEsq says
I was once invited by a friend to go get liposuction with him. It was weird and he promised me that they offer installment payments.
Cait says
Like… With him, with him? Or "Hey, I'm doing this and you should too?" Did he get a discount for referring a friend? That is.. odd. Then again, I really don't get the elective plastic surgery concept generally.
Marty Farley says
You don't? Why not? It is too bad how ridiculously expensive it is, but it offers the opportunity to FINALLY be attractive! What person wouldn't jump at that?
Maybe if you're already attractive, then you don't see the need?…
Cait says
I don't think I'm already attractive. I'm just the child of a doctor and think that unnecessary surgery is a great way to play russian roullette.
Gentleman Horndog says
Because body shape is only one part of attractiveness. (Real-life attractiveness, not Hollywood/photo-shoot attractiveness, which is a whole different can of worms.)
Marty Farley says
Well, that's why I was considering a nose job as well. Though chin and face shape might be more pressing…
OldBrownSquirrel says
For photo-shoot attractiveness, a nose job isn't sufficient; you also need PhotoShop.
Gentleman Horndog says
True enough. Even people who look like that don't actually look like that.
enail says
I'm not especially attractive. But I feel like I look like me now, and I wouldn't want to do anything that would erase some of the me-ness of my appearance, even if it made me more technically attractive.
Maybe this would work as an illustration of my feelings. I was looking at this amazing set of photos, http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/inchar… and I was struck by how amazing and wonderful some of those crazy faces were. And I realized that the ones that just wowed me, that were so full of expression and personality, were not the ones from the most conventionally attractive actors, but the ones with wrinkles and big noses and bags under their eyes and what-have-you. Their faces were able to show so much more and were so full of character that they were totally compelling and…beautiful, outside of what one culture or another says a person should look like to be attractive, beautiful like a meteor shower or a leaf skeleton or someone you love smiling.
To me, plastic surgery seems like it's filing down that expressiveness and uniqueness in order to fit into a mold of generic attractiveness, and that's not a trade that I'd want to make.
FormerlyJay says
Because it takes less chemicals and chopping up your flesh to play up the features you already have?
Also, the Nordic-North-European look as the standard of beauty has been plaguing us for centuries and has GOT. TO. DIE.
(I'm Chinese and I know of plenty of Chinese people undergoing dangerous procedures to whiten skin or get the double eyelid. It's their private business, but I think it's sad, wasteful, and reinforcing of a colonialist paradigm that I am sick to death of.)
isdzan says
I knew a woman who’s mom had a med spa and practiced her new techniques on her daughters. The daughters thought this was normal, or at least this woman did, despite the fact that her eyebrow was stuck for 3 weeks once in an up position…
Akai says
That's really disturbing and possibly illegal? Maybe?
Christine says
Plastic surgery can be fine. And it does not necessarily make you look fake in any way. You have to have realistic expectations (really do your research about exactly what each procedure entails) and have a top-notch, board-certified practitioner. I chose to have plastic surgery when half my face was damaged to such a degree that I almost lost an eye. No one has ever in any way even hinted that I look fake or weird or unnatural. Of course, there are terrible doctors whose work shows up in media horror stories. Like anything else, know what you are doing before making a decision.
Plastic surgery isn't for everyone. One of my best friends has a very large nose, which she was self-conscious about and endured some teasing in high school. Her mother often offered to pay to have it changed, but my friend declined. She ended up marrying a man who looks like a Greek god (he also is Greek, so maybe that goes with the territory). It took her awhile to gain the confidence she needed to find her partner, but no surgery was involved.
Think about your own situation and just don't rush into anything. I have no regrets about it, but neither does my friend.
CmE says
Yeah, this is sensible. I don't think most men will think negatively about tasteful and well done plastic surgery. Largely it will go unnoticed.
StarlightArcher says
I'd say the nose job first. Even though it's likely to be the most expensive, it'll also be the most drastic. Lipo can turn into a Pandora's Box considering if you loose too much weight then you'll have to consider a tummy tuck and other skin tightening procedures.
I'm kind of in the same boat, I can't decide if I should be responsible and get veneers or do the fun thing and opt for a breast lift. Ultimately good cosmetic surgery is like a good makeup application. It should make you look like your best and not draw attention to itself. Like most computer graphics people say "if you notice the effects, I haven't done my job right"
Paladin says
Oh Jesus, Marley, for the last time…
YOU ARE ATTRACTIVE. AS A STRAIGHT (MOSTLY) APPARENTLY ATTRACTIVE DUDE, I FIND YOU ATTRACTIVE. TO USE THE VERNACULAR, I WOULD TAP THAT. YOU DO NOT NEED PLASTIC SURGERY. YOU DID NOT EVER NEED PLASTIC SURGERY. YOU ARE LOVELY THE WAY YOU ARE.
ThatDebra says
You are free to pay for anything you want, if you're being serious here, but you do need to consider who you're doing it for.
If you're not doing it for yourself, then you're putting yourself through painful procedures, paying a shitload of money that could be used for something you yourself could enjoy so much more, just so that some neckbeards stop being manchildren. And they don't actually stop being manchildren. They always want more.
The Mikey says
Huh.
You ever feel like you’re simply not cut out for dating?
No, that’s my jerk-brain being an asshole; but sometimes my brain asks a lot of good questions. I sit here scratching my head and my brain asks, how soon should I tell a girl I’m attracted to her? Do I tell her I want to have sex and a relationship? How direct is too direct? How do I flirt, what is flirting? (I ask because every person I ask how to/what flirting is gives me a completely different answer.) How exactly do I build sexual tension without coming off as a creep-o? When do I touch if I’m supposed to touch? Aren’t I suppose to keep my hands to myself?
I understand being willing and able to be vulnerable and being interested & letting ladies know what you want. But how do I do that? Obvious answer is with words, but then you get no answer and well at that point do you jump ship? What do I do?
I know this sounds pretty whiny, and I sincerely apologize; but I haven’t the slightest clue as to what I’m doing anymore. I’ve read just about every DNL article written and used the advice I’ve read wherever and whenever applicable/appropriate.
tl;dr Should I just stay out of the dating scene for a while? I think I’m gonna do that. Again, sorry.
enail says
It sounds like you're overthinking things and getting bogged down worrying about everything! Maybe try just incorporating what advice you feel comfortable incorporating and otherwise go about dating in the way that feels natural to you, see how that goes for a while, and then re-evaluate to figure out what areas you're actually having problems in?
If it's not just that you feel like you've got too much information and don't know how to apply it all, though if you feel like you're not enjoying dating and it's stressing you out too much, yeah, take a break. Dating will still exist when you're ready to come back!
The Mikey says
Bogged down is correct, I have no idea where to start and my head gets buried underneath the flow of advice and articles and I can't breathe. Over thinking isn't wrong either, but I'm being honest when I say that I don't know how soon is too soon to tell a girl that I'm attracted to them or even how I should say it and that my jerk-brain is genuinely asking questions that nobody seems to ever address (srsly, nobody ever says how soon is too soon to tell someone how you feel about them). If I have a loose idea of what I'm doing I can improvise from there; I'm fine with making mistakes (I'm not perfect), I just don't wanna screw up too badly and have anything tossed in my face either.
Currently, I don't know if I would enjoy dating (sure sounds like a lot of fun though) because I haven't been on a single date either which further adds to the confusion of what I may or may not be doing correctly. *shrug* :/
enail says
I think no one says how soon is too soon because it depends so much on the specific people and situation. There isn't one right answer. Some stuff, you just have to judge for yourself.
That said, if there's a specific scenario that's worrying you, I'm sure people will be happy to give you their best suggestions on when you should/shouldn't say something.
The Mikey says
I suppose so; Thank you, I appreciate it. 🙂
Jess says
My best advice is when admitting anything, keep it simple.
A quick "I'm really into you," said offhand while in the middle of an enjoyable activity can go a loooooooong way. "I'd love to kiss you." "I'm having a great time talking with you. I have this thing I'm going to Friday, would you like to join me?"
It's much better than trying to write reams of poetry and then manufacturing a moment to say it.
Akai says
I might almost suggest you read fewer articles if they're causing you more stress, though I'm loath to tell you to go away by commenting on a dating advice article (not least because you're one of the saner voices in your demographic here).
The Mikey says
I'm not entirely sure what you mean though. I understand the read few articles part, but I'm not too sure on telling me to go away lol. Sorry. D:
isdzan says
I think they are saying stay because you are not a nutter
I am certainly saying stay because you are not a nutter, for what it is worth.
The Mikey says
Thanks, I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy with all this dating business, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not after all. 😀
Cait says
I had absolutely no success with any of the traditional avenues of flirting and dating until I found someone I clicked with. None. If I had to start over again, I'd be up a creek.
So yeah, I'm probably NOT cut out for dating.
The Mikey says
But that's the thing, I have no idea what flirting is, I've asked people in my own social circle what flirting is and nobody can give me a straight answer. So I'm left with more questions than answers. Is flirting some bizarre existential concept that everyone grasps better than I?
So, I think I'm already up that creek, haha.
enail says
There are a lot of different ways people flirt, but essentially, I think it's just a way of letting your attraction show and encouraging the other person to respond to that. If you're having trouble getting people you like to see you in a romantic/sexual light, or even to realize you like them that way, flirting's probably a good thing to practice, but not everyone who ever has a romantic or sexual relationship with someone is skilled at flirting, and you don't have to know how to flirt to give a go at dating.
I think you're holding yourself back by feeling like you need to have it all figured out to even give it a try.
The Mikey says
Now that makes sense! I don't know why nobody was ever able to explain flirting to me in those terms. Nor do I know why people ever made such a big deal about it if I don't need to know.
And you're absolutely right about that too. I feel that if I can't figure it out, how am I supposed to be at all successful?
enail says
Well, don't take my word as meaning too much on this. I don't really know from flirting at all myself. 🙂 But I (apparently – I didn't mean to be doing it) managed to flirt quite a lot when I met someone I was really into who was (apparently – again, I was pretty clueless) flirting with me, so my experience is that it can just be what comes naturally to you.
The Mikey says
Come to think of it, aside from your definition, this small anecdote actually aligns rather well with what a friend of mine told me a few years ago.
He told me that nobody really knows that they're flirting, they just do it. He then told me he'd seen me do it too. I thought he full o' shit (hooray for insecurities! /sarcasm), he told me I was flirting with this girl from our 3D Class, I didn't think so because all I was doing was talking and I didn't even know what I said or did or remember the instance to know if it even constituted as such.
Such is life.
Akai says
It's actually a frustratingly hard concept to explain. It's a bit like joking or teasing, and it has elements of approach, but none of that sums it up very well.
The Mikey says
I joke a lot with ladies and either it flies past their heads or they giggle (I'm not entirely sure if they're being polite, or if I actually am funny). But that's something I do naturally I joke around with them lightheartedly and not in a sexual way either.
I'm not sure if that would constitute as flirting though…
Jess says
Add the undertone of "Hey you're cute and I think you're interesting" and you have flirting. I agree, flirting is the art of letting someone know that they have your attention and you want to show them your attraction in subtle ways that are fun and enticing and encourage interaction.
A look, a smile, a cock of the head at the right time, (watch for rocking side to side in girls, that is a common flirting technique) brief casual touches on arms and shoulders, jokes, listening intently to a conversation, drawing attention to sexual features by toying or touching them (watch for playing with hair or a girl who touches her lips), mirroring body position and movement, It's all flirting. There is no right way to do it. The only real wrong way to do it is to try too hard so that it looks forced or unnatural.
nakedJill says
Taking yourself out of the dating scene is a great way to avoid getting hurt, but it's also a way to avoid learning new skills. All those questions you asked can be answered through trial and error. Start off using a combination of your gut instinct and what you've learned via reading and then pay attention to the feedback you receive and modify your actions accordingly.
You're probably going to feel very uncomfortable at first, but as you practice and get better you'll start to see some success and that success will build on itself. It's worth making the effort.
The Mikey says
Getting hurt in the past I feel has been a result of me being stubborn and getting overly invested for some stupid reason. I've learned a lot over the years and reading this blog but I don't think I've actually gone anywhere with some of that knowledge out of fear (?).
I suppose I always look for feedback, but either I'm terrible at interpreting/reading it, or I get none at all. Believe me, it's very uncomfortable doing any of this at all, and just thinking about it terrifies me to no end.
nakedJill says
When I say feedback I'm talking about the reactions you get from the women you're trying to talk to/flirt with/date. If she seems eager to continue spending time with you, that's a form of positive feedback. If she's constantly checking her phone or looking around the room, that's an example of negative feedback.
Another way to look at it is if you feel good at the end of the encounter, things went well and you should repeat at least some of your actions. If you feel bad, you'll want to make some adjustments.
The Mikey says
So thats what you meant, okay, that makes sense.
I sometimes feel weird at the end of an encounter mostly because I don’t know how she feels about me even if I’m being cheery and positive. Other times I feel great.
I just don’t know anymore.
@kleenestar says
I would encourage you to embrace not-knowing and a mindset of experimentation rather than success. Try things! Find out what your strengths are! Develop your character! Build relationships without any expectations! It's okay to feel weird!
The Mikey says
I suppose so; I'm not gonna lie to you, not-knowing terrifies me to end!
Gearhead says
Gotta agree. It sounds like part of your problem is that you’ve spent too much time theorycrafting the whole thing, and need to just get out into the field. Doing so made a huge difference for me. For example, I read and reread the article on signs of attraction, and couldn’t make heads or tails of it. It wasn’t until I had an encounter with a girl who was giving me those signs that it finally clicked.
The Mikey says
Well I *have* ventured out into the field but it's yielded *very* little success. I had to double-check with that same article you're referring to to see if a girl I knew liked me, and all signs pointed to a definite "yes", turns out I was wrong. So, I wound up heartbroken and scratching my head searching where the hell I went wrong.
enail says
Don't worry, everyone misreads people sometimes. Signs are not 100% guaranteed information!
Charlie Foxtrot says
You're not whining at all. You are absolutely correct. Women expect men to treat them as equals in the feminist sense but to still take the initiative when it comes to seduction. You guess wrong and BZZZZ you're a creeper. In fact you guess right and you're still a creeper.
This is a side effect of modern feminsim. Women are taught that they are capable and equal and they deserve equality but deep down they are still conditioned for self-loathing and still haven't unlearned all that old Madonna/whore, knight in shining armor crap that our grandparents were raised on. So when the blogs are up and signs are being waved around and women are fighting the patriarchy then it's all I am woman hear me roar. However as soon as a cute scumbag shows up and looks her up and down in just the right way, she turns into a swooning, poodle skirt clad teenager from the 50's going "isn't he dreamy?"
Unfortunately the effect for lonely dudes is that there is no set of rules you can follow and nothing you do is right unless she's already decided that you're a dreamboat. If you don't happen to be a dreamboat then don't even so much as speak in turn or you will be friend-zoned or labeled a creeper before you've even decided how you feel about the person.
Part of the problem is the time discrepancy. Women often say they want a man to take his time, as Conway Twitty sings, but they themselves will make snap decisions about you and not allow you to take that time, should you not meet their internal, convoluted, nebulous criteria. Women are just in too damn much of a hurry most of the time and they are not pausing to think their decisions through.
"I wanna woman with a slooow hand…."
I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of misandrist preachiness and very little practical advice on this site. But I where you are coming from and you are right. Unfortunately the solution is for a lot of women to come to terms with some truths on an individual level and think about what kind of decisions they are making and what kind of messages they are sending. Most women just aren't up to this and find it easier to blame the man when they don't guess their whim. This is further complicated by a particular class of scumbag who manipulate these women….but that's a whole other rant.
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled…"
The Mikey says
I dunno, can't be THAT black & white… otherwise it'd be a fallacy.
Bob Loblaw says
Nose first. Once you can breathe better, exercise becomes easier.
Bob Loblaw says
That was supposed to be in response to Marty.
Robjection says
I get the feeling the reason for the (hypothetical or otherwise) nose job wouldn't be to do with her respiratory system.
Bob Loblaw says
That was probably me projecting. I had a deviated septum in high school and it made aerobic exercise particularly strenuous.
Cait says
She's talking about issues with attractiveness, not physical defects.
ccmc says
Seriously though. Getting a deviated septum fixed can work wonders for a number of health issues.
Bas Kleijweg says
Meh, if someone's an interesting person, I'd rather end up with a friendship as the consolation prize(for lack of a better term) than with nothing at all by being more forward. I can always choose to ask if someone wants to try dating at a later point-and if you get an LJBF speech, you just keep being friends(brief cooldown period not withstanding). I befriended most brodettes this way, never really saw the harm in it as long as you keep a clear head.
toddsmitts says
I dunno. If the two of you want different things, it might be better to go your separate ways.
Bas Kleijweg says
Lust, romantic interest and pleasant company don't exclude each other. Of course you go separate ways if one person can't overcome a crush or if there isn't anything left when the infatuation's gone. Accepting a rejection with grace and going back to being friends(without silly pining) seems pretty normal to me.
eselle28 says
I think both are realistic options. For me, a lot of it depends on whether there was any sort of a solid friendship there beforehand and whether that person's otherwise part of a social circle I interact with or would like to know better. There have been some cases where it's been a new, fragile friendship and it seemed like there'd be a lot more awkwardness and work than fun in trying to do a "just friends," and other times when it's been easy to drop the romantic angle and obvious that the friendship was strong enough to deal with some tension.
FormerlyJay says
>"never really saw the harm in it as long as you keep a clear head."
That's the key here. It depends on how mature the two (or more) involved parties are.
Right now I have a mild-to-moderate crush on one of my good friends. I know this is not going to be consummated or reciprocated because he has a steady girlfriend and shows all signs of being fully committed to her, and because I'm pretty sure I passed up my opportunity a while ago. Also, I have my own romantic entanglement with other people. I deal with this by enjoying the times we hang out and maybe sighing a little over the might-have-been, but otherwise I go about my life with little impact on our friendship.
Would 18-year-old me have been able to manage this? Oh hell no. The only way I was able to healthily deal with unreciprocated crushes back then was to cut off all contact with them so I wouldn't be driven crazy or get scarily obsessed with them. Thankfully, this is no longer necessary for me. It really all depends on maturity and experience.
Dictator tot says
These aren't solutions–they're "what would you be doing if you were a better person, which you're emphatically NOT." Wonder if there's any "How to stop the agony long enough to log in some practice at being an ordinary human being" sort of thread.
enail says
Therapy might be a good option?
Charlie Foxtrot says
Why is it when anyone talks about the friend zone it's automatically assumed that it's the guy who's at fault because it's assumed that he is the one not being a true friend and basically manipulating her for sex. That's some childish, misandrist, nonsense and i will brook none of it!
What about the idea, and I know this is a radical concep, that the guy genuinely is friends with the girl. And what if, as the friendship evolves, he realizes that he's found someone special and that he's fallen in love with her. Well the simple fact is the woman probably put him in the friend zone because she's a commitment phobe and loving him or having sex with him is simply out of her comfort zone (She then chooses her lovers badly or they are throwaways). It's too scary and too threatening to her internal construct of self-loathing. In other words it's easier for her to blame him after The Big Reveal™ (you know where he confesses his undying love Chasing Amy style and all she hears is sex…because she's sexist and assumes that all guys just want sex) than it is to come to terms with the idea that she might not be as loathsome as she thinks herself to be and that a special guy that's already a friend to her thinks that she is special. Her self-esteem usually just isn't up for it. So it's easier to convince herself, with lots of spurious logic and internal rationalization, that he lied to her all along and cunningly manipulated her for sex instead of actually being a friend.
But that's not the whole story. Nine times out of ten when a girl friend zones a guy, she's looking for the kind of emotional support that one normally gets from spouse, lover, or boyfriend. She wants that shoulder to cry on and the person she can talk about her day with. But she offers little in return, neither the sex or romance he desires (and for which he is automatically a villain should he express those desires). Nor does she reciprocate the kind of emotional support that she is seeking from him. It's sort of a cross between emotional vampirism and the sort of commitment phobia that men were commonly accused of about 20 years ago. Instead of him using her for sex, she is using him for emotional support (the kind that you're supposed to get from a Relationship).
Ladies, remember all those long talks you have with a shiny new guy where you just talk and talk until 6 in the morning, and he doesn't want anything and it's sooo wonderful. Yeah, I'll bet you it's not nearly as wonderful to him. In fact I'll bet the lady in that equation did most of the talking and when the guy tried to have his turn she cut him off to launch into another story. If that's the case then you done friend zoned somebody in a way that makes you the jerk.
But all this chicanery is only possible because of two underlying misconceptions that most women today seem to share. First, there is the idea that your best friend and your lover can't be the same person. Not only must they be two different people but the idea that they could be the same person is heresy and shouldn't even be considered. Second there's the idea that relationships (both Relationships as well as friendships) don't evolve..that they are static things for all time. So when a girl friend zones a guy, she's assuming they will be in the same state years from now. Maybe that's why the Big Reveal is such an angering shocked. She's compartmentalized him and gotten complacent about it and suddenly he's not staying in that box, how dare him!
One more thing: Ladies, if you get all the sex you want, when you want, and you're talking to a guy who doesn't get laid a lot, then don't go on to him about how wonderful your new guy is because "it's not about sex," or, "he wants to take his time." Doing so makes you come off like a stupid, spoiled, vacuous flake. Don't do it if you want your friend zone recipient to continue to stay in your friend zone. That's probably the one thing that's going to convince him to finally man up and leave your friend zone by telling you off for good.
Oh, and for the record, not everyone who has a legitimate gripe against women and they way the deck is stacked against men is a PUAhater or Red Pill blogger. That was a cheap shot, Dr. Nerdlove, and a logical fallacy for which you ought to be ashamed.
In fact I'm quickly beginning to think that Dr. Nerdlove is a pen name for a group of angry feminist women who, under the guise of "advice", are subtly trying to brainwash men into being oversensitive, misandrist toadies. Fie on you all!
I think I'll go check out those PUAhate sites just to see what they are about. I wonder why the false dilemma regarding them? Is there a truth amongst the neo-mysogonists that someone here at the offices of Dr. Nerdlove doesn't want people to find out. Or are they a threat to the misandrist world view?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled…"