Hey Doc,
My first girlfriend was white. Brown hair, super kind person, amazing person, we dated for 2 years and had to end it because I couldn’t handle her low self esteem anymore, it was becoming too much of a mental burden to always be the one to give her strength.
After that, I dated a few more people of different races, until recently I’ve begun to date a very lovely Desi woman. She is an amazing person too, kindness outta this world, and I’m incredibly attracted to her.
The problem I experience is (and keep experiencing), I keep having these ideas that I should be with a white girl, someone with skin more like mine, in addition to a body type more like mine and more in line with societal norms (trust me I love it when women have curves, and the woman I’m with now is quite curvy).
Sometimes, I just can’t stop the thoughts from entering my head that I should be pursuing this beauty standard of “a girl that everyone will desire and covet”. I’m not sure where it comes from, but I suspect it could be from watching too much porn for years combined with growing up with these societal norms of what women are perceived as beautiful.
Dr. NerdLove, how do I get wrong ideas about women out of my head?
Social Messaging Sucks
Here’s what’s going on, SMS. You’ve spent a lifetime soaking in an ocean of messaging and advertising telling you that this specific type of woman – white, blonde, skinny and curvy – is the ideal and that a “real” man has a girlfriend that all his buddies want to bang. Your girlfriend is the external personification of your worth, so if you’re not banging someone who’s a traditional 10, you just ain’t shit.
And this messaging hits people across all spectrums. Women of various sizes are taught that they’re too heavy, too curvy, too tall, too muscular, too flat, too big. Their skin isn’t light enough, their hair is the wrong texture, their noses the wrong shape and their faces have the wrong structure. Their personalities are wrong – too brash, too brassy, too loud, too angry, too assertive, too confident. And even if they come closer to the ideal, women of color still not going to be as socially valuable as a white woman. And of course, they need to give any man a chance because women shouldn’t be shallow in who they choose to date, while dudes are encouraged to be shallow. There may be a bunch of articles celebrating how women love the DadBod but far fewer about men who like zaftig women. Your first girlfriend may not be perfect brah, but you better trade up as you improve your own social value.
Now when people are left to their own devices, we on the whole like a wide spectrum of body types, skin colors and types of hair and faces. There’re guys out there – fit, jacked dudes – who love them some big, beautiful women. There’re women who love dudes with hairy musclemen and thiccboys. There’re people who like folks of other races, non-binaries, trans men and women and people whose gender presentation is all over the map. But the number of people who can admit to liking people outside of the model that’s been marketed to us are damned few – and that’s when we filter out the people who fetishize specific races.
You see this in shitty “jokes” like “how’s a fat girl like a moped”. You see this in people who’re willing to fuck transwomen but not openly date them, in people who’ll hit on people of different races like they’re paying them a compliment and get pissy if they have the temerity to say “go away”.
Their junk may want what it wants, but their brain isn’t going to let them live their truth; not when they’re valuing what society taught them to desire over who they actually connect with.
That’s why you’re having these thoughts, SMS. Cultural programming is a motherfucker. It digs in deep and it’s really hard to root out, even among the best intentioned. It can creep into your thoughts and make you question things. Like a concern-troll on Twitter it can sound perfectly reasonable on the surface: “are you suuuuuure you should be dating her? What will your friends say? Isn’t it unfair of you to inflict their judgement on her? What about those cultural differences? Are you sure you’re into her and not just fetishizing her?”
And in fairness: it’s good to interrogate your desires and ask yourself why you’re drawn to the people you like. Do you like your “type” because it’s what you’ve always been attracted to? Or is there something else about it? Are you into, say, large girls, because you like them big or because you think they’re going to be “grateful” and let you get away with more? Are you into people of other races or who’re gender non-conforming because you find them attractive, or because you like flaunting social mores and shocking people?
But a lot of the time… you’re going to find you like them. And even in this theoretically more enlightened, cosmopolitan era, loving someone who isn’t the “right” type is an act of rebellion. So here’s what you do about those thoughts that bubble up: defang them. Label them and note them – “Hey, there’s that weird bit of social programming again, that’s annoying” – and them let them pass. If you’re happy with your sweet, curvy girlfriend, then fuck what people think and what society tells you to want. Happiness is is too precious to give up over bullshit ideas about what you’re “supposed” to want. Love whom you love and everything else can go hang.
Good luck.
Greetings and Salutations, Doc.
I’ve been reading your articles on and off for about a year or so now, I guess, with increasing consistency for the past half a year or so in particular and have had a fairly regular presence in the comments. I’ve picked up a lot of useful, interesting and at times irrationally infuriating information from your work over that time. However, I had something of a sticking point the other night that I thought you might help me suss out.
A quick note on background: I am not a bar-goer. Generally speaking, I don’t like the noise, the press of bodies when it gets crowded and I’m not a drinker (alcohol tends to either make me sick or sleepy with very little in between). That said, I befriended the members of a band that has a steady gig at a local bar and grill; I enjoy their music enough to get over my intrinsic distaste for the bar scene. As a result, I’ve sort of developed a callous over my intrinsic distaste for going to bars, at least in so far as this particular one is concerned.
So, the last time I was out catching my friends play, I was paying a little more attention to the crowd than usual (usually I’m so wrapped up in the music, I don’t give the people aside from my friends a second thought) and I found myself noting a number of attractive women in the crowd.
I thought about all the stuff I’d learned from your site, podcast, videos…and eventually did absolutely nothing. A couple of quick glances across the bar and I just let it end at that.
Now, I don’t have to do a lot of introspection to determine why I didn’t make any moves. While I’ve been making progress in mapping out my personal peculiarities, between spending time critically reviewing my past actions based on the concepts laid out in your articles and getting professional guidance from a therapist…there’s still a massive stumbling block to my approach to women I don’t know.
That stumbling block is “A reason to approach them”. Ultimately, in my mind, “Hey, you’re attractive and I’d like to get to you know you better” doesn’t constitute sufficient reason to insert myself into someone else’s social evening. Even given your guidelines of “bars are a safe place to approach people”, my aversion to insinuating myself into somebody else’s good time tells me that I have no logical impetus to do so. I find it easy enough to slip into other people’s conversation with a quick comment or observation, but usually only when there’s really nothing at stake. And of course, that would mean being in proximity to hear what they were talking about in the first place and when I’m out at the bar, I usually spend my time on my own because I’m trying to get the most out of the performance rather than engaging the other people there (since most of them are NOT there for the music like I am). I suppose I give off a “fuck off, I’m listening to the music” vibe that only the most inebriated of patrons are immune to.
Maybe there’s still too big an issue of rejection avoidance; maybe it’s a result of poor self image; maybe I’m just intrinsically ill suited to cold approaches of this nature (that would be a cold approach, right?). It’s a pretty good bet I’m going to be in this position again in the future, as this is a regular monthly gig I make a point to attend, so I wonder if you have any suggestions on how to proceed. This is one of the few social engagements I regularly attend (I work at night, so my options tend to be a bit limited), so it feels kinda like a waste when I don’t make the most of it.
But, in the end, I’m not sure how to do that.
No Approach Vector
You’ve answered your own question here NAV. You’re getting in your own way.
Here’s the thing about conversations: it’s not that hard to join them, especially in social situations. It’s one thing if, say, you slide a chair up to somebody’s table at a restaurant; that goes against the social contract of the situation and people would rightly be weirded out by it. On the other hand when you’re in spaces that are explicitly social – like parties, like bars and performances – it’s generally accepted that people are going to mingle and introduce themselves to one another. The dynamics of approaching someone and talking with them at a bar aren’t that different from the ones at a networking event or a cocktail party.
You know this. You’ve already said that you’re experienced in joining conversations when there’s nothing at stake.
Here’s the thing: there’s nothing at stake here either. All you’re doing is starting a conversation. That’s it. This isn’t prelude to getting married. This isn’t even the first step to getting a date. All you’re doing is talking to someone to find out if you are even interested in them. Yeah they’re cute… but anyone can tell you that being cute doesn’t make for actual chemistry so what do they have going for them besides their looks?
And here’s the thing: “You seem interesting and I wanted to get to know you” is a perfectly legitimate reason to talk to someone. Hell, one of my go-to lines for starting a conversation is simply a declaration of intent and explanation as to why I’m approaching them: “Hey my friends are being kind of boring/ I’m bored and I’m looking for good conversation and you seem like you’re really interesting. My name is…”
Meeting people, making friends and getting dates has nothing to do with logic or having a sufficient “reason” to talk to someone. To quote the sage: “Love isn’t brains, children, it’s blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will.” The idea that you need a “logical” reason to approach someone is just an excuse to not approach. It’s just you not accepting that your interest in other people is legitimate. You’re dressing up the middle-school fear of “I can’t let someone know I like them” in rationality drag. And if that’s the issue, then that is something you should be going over with your therapist.
But, fun fact: you can’t know if someone would like you or find you interesting without taking your shot. You’re inventing excuses to pre-reject yourself and never giving someone else the chance to make up their mind.
Yeah, I get it. You’re afraid of being rejected and the shame having the temerity to approach someone following you everywhere you go. Trust me: unless you stick around and ignore their interest, then you aren’t going to screw up their good time. People are far too wrapped up in their own bullshit to worry about – or even remember – someone who said “hi” and then peaced-out when they ignored him.
The only thing you can do is learn to shut up that over-thinking part of your brain and take your chances. There is no success without risk, no matter how slight.
Good luck.
Well…that went about as I expected. You know what they say, “There are no stupid questions, only stupid people”.
Now if only the answer didn’t make me feel stupid and hopeless.
There is nothing wrong with having areas where you need to grow. There is nothing wrong with trying and learning and not being right all the time.
You are the one who is beating yourself and calling yourself stupid. No one else is. And if you were treating someone else the way you are treating yourself right now the mods would kick you to the curb.
You should talk to your therapist about why you are jumping right to beating yourself up and being filled with despair. There is nothing here to feel stupid or hopeless about, that is your brain lying to you.
Try to be kind to yourself, please, you deserve it.
Are you LW2? No one’s said you’re stupid at all. If anything, this is a fairly common problem lots of other people have had.
If you want a different way to think about it, why not instead think about what the version of you a few years ago (or whatever the relevant time period is) that he’d be hanging out in a bar once a month? I’m guessing he’d think that was impossible? But, like you said, you developed a callous. Give the bar nights some time and you might notice some of the women are always there, and then maybe your reason to talk to them is that they might also be there to listen to the music, or might even know your friends. I’m guessing at least some of them are – I don’t know that I’ve ever encountered a band that doesn’t have at least a couple female fans.
On that note, do your buddies pack up and go home after their gig, or do they stay and talk to folks a bit? If it’s the latter, you might want to try staying too and saying hello to the people who stay to talk to them. That’s a warmer approach, and again, is someone who’s more likely to have something in common with you than the woman who’s at the bar because she really likes going to bars.
That second letter really does sound VERY familiar.
Just a note: you don’t have to be told you’re stupid to feel like you’re stupid.
In this case, asking a question that I already know the answer to (or at least know the nature of the answer you’re going to receive) does make me feel a bit stupid.
It doesn’t need to make you feel stupid. Your brain is being a jerk. What it looks like to me based on this comment and the letter as a whole is that you know what to do, but because of your perceived inadequacies and your fears of rejection, you’re tripping up when you try put your knowledge into action.
I am here to join the choir of pep talks. If you are Lw 2 or overly identify with Lw2, you aren’t stupid or hopeless. The answer you got was you that “hey it’s fine to have cognitive dissonance between logic and emotions. Here is some advice for getting over that”. I know its frustrating and feels defeating that when you go to ask for help and the answer you get isn’t “here i will magically make it better for you” but it doesn’t mean you are stupid.
and if you are lw2 props on going out your comfort zone and going to bars, thats something to be proud of. I know some 50+ yr olds who refuse to step out of their comfort zone, and insulated themselves in all that’s familiar and their life are sadder for it.
It can look huge and daunting if you’ve never tried to do it before. But nobody can do the work except you. I agree with the other replies that give you props on going out there even though you’re nervous and feeling awkward. It’ normal to feel those things, especially when you’re thinking of approaching someone. It can be a bit scary even though rationally you know that no physical harm will come to you if it doesn’t work out. I think at some point or another, just about everyone will experience this to some degree.
I’m guessing you feel hopeless because the Doc’s advice came across as, “Well, here’s what a much more outgoing person would do in your situation, with your stated objective” and you were looking for some kind of script that feels comfortable to use. But he does have great advice about changing your perspective getting out of your own head.
I dunno, it’ll take practice, like anything. If it really feels like an absolute anxiety nightmare to approach people at the club, maybe it’s not where you shine, and that’s okay; you say you’re not a bar person. Try and find some avenues to meet people that feel more naturally suited to you – a boardgame Meetup that will give you a context for being there and a thing to talk about, for example. If you’d like to not waste the opportunities at the club, tell yourself it’s no big deal if the person you approach is rude or annoying. You don’t know anything about them without talking at least a little, so not your fault if they turn out to be a screechy-voiced Nazi or something.
Lw2 After reading your letter it looks like you are a huge over thinker. With each detail that you over explained in your letter i was transformed back to when I was unconfident and shame of social approach. I would come up with a million worst case scenarios, over explain the predicament in my head, and like a rabbit caught in a head like I was petrified still.
For me the solution for getting out of my head was trying to hard wire my brain into stop worrying about social situations. The way I did it was by practicing my social interactions skill in low stakes environments (ask a stranger for directions etc), and then slowly amping it up to more intense social situation.
My second advice is working/volunteering at large social events. While working at a Con you are going to be talking with thousands of people and its a great crash course on “don’t overthink this interaction”. It doesn’t matter if I stammered or made a joke that faild the people would walk away in less than 5 sec and ill have a new batch of people i need to help.
And finally you might benefit from some cognitive behavioral therapy. It is a form of therapy that focuses more on techniques to prevent specific thought patterns or repetitive behaviors. There are plenty of CBT exercises online so you can always give it a shot and if it resonates with you you might benefit from a few sessions.
Op 1: this is gonna sound weird, but I found that Kono Mari has really helped me. Sure it is intended for decluttering houses, but it kinda transforms into a mindset: keeping only the things that make you happy. It makes you rethink what makes YOU happy and what sould give YOU a happy lifestyle.
The author even admits that her book has helped people seek happier lives OUTSIDE of a clean house.
So I guess the question is that is your girlfriend maki g you truly happy? Do specific girls make you happy? You mentioned dumping your first gf because her self esteem issues were not making you happy, which is good. It means you know how to cut away from one negative aspect that can consume many.
I hope that helps a bit, even if it sounds weird.
Is that Konmari? My search results think it is and it sounds interesting enough that I want to follow up.
Yup.
It sparked some interesting movements, like the AntiHauls in makeup.
I started a little of it and it has helped me feel slightly better about myself.
Requested from the library! AmI right in gathering that the core premise is “if it doesn’t give you joy, toss it?”
Not:
1. Hold the object. Touch it, feel it, or fold it (clothing)
2. Ask if it gives you joy.
3. Keep it if it does
4. If it doesn’t: Thank it for its service and THEN discard/donate
The inportant thing is NOT just throwing stuff away, but to actually decide if you actual feel happy with this object.
That is an important thing if you move onto more PERSONAL objects (old letters, photographs, and sentimental items)
Not so much to disagree with the Doc as much as tease out some nuance –
I can be a pretty social person at a bar when there’s something like a live show or karaoke going on, but even so, my instinctual reaction to a guy’s first words to me being “You seem interesting and I’d like to get to know you” is going to be, “In what way do I ‘seem interesting,’ person with whom I’ve never exchanged a word?” The guy has no idea who I am or why I would be “interesting” in a meaningful, personality-based way. I’d suspect what he really meant was, “You look fuckable” or “You evince a visual/physical trait that turns me on.” And, hey, maybe that’s what some gals are looking for, but me, that just sounds like he’s trying to dress up “women of [TYPE] are interchangable and you’ll do” in socially acceptable terms
So… I’m trying to figure out how “you seem interesting” is a respectful, non-objectifying vector of approach between strangers. Is the expectation that the guy will follow up with “I overheard you talking about [X] and that’s my thing too” or something else meaningful like that? I hope?
In any case, if LW2 likes this band, chances are some of the interesting-looking women in the crowd also like the band, and that’s a point of social connection he can build from that isn’t just “I don’t know you but I find you attractive,” right?
(I mean, even the guy who turned out to be fetishizing my long hair–urgh, that guy–did at least start out trying to make a cultural connection based on his saying I seemed to be the only person in the crowd beside him who knew all the words to all the songs that Zebra’s Randy Jackson was covering.)
“You look interesting” could just be that they find you attractive or they see someone in an interesting outfit or hairstyle and out of everyone there you look like an interesting person to talk to…I’ve had women use it on me, and seen women use it as well.
It’s not the best opener because it doesn’t really lend itself to a follow-up, but it’s also a fairly direct opener since everyone understands that it means they’re expressing interest and probably on a level higher than wanting small talk.
It’s part of the social contract of places where people go out to be social (like bars and parties and so on) and most people know it just means; “I’d like to talk to you more because I’m interested in you” and if they don’t feel like talking they’ll politely beg off, and if they’re open to it then they’ll start a conversation, flirting or not, and go from there.
It’s not something I use much but honestly, it ties into the ‘You don’t need a reason to approach someone as long as you’re in a socially acceptable environment you just need to be respectful if they aren’t interested”
No one knows anyone else until they talk to the other person, and physical attraction, or having your interest engaged by overhearing a discussion, or someone’s t-shirt, or their hair colour or style, etc, etc, are all things that can be interesting.
“In any case, if LW2 likes this band, chances are some of the interesting-looking women in the crowd also like the band, and that’s a point of social connection he can build from that isn’t just “I don’t know you but I find you attractive,” right?”
How does LW2 know the women like the band unless he asks them?
Every approach to someone you don’t know is; “I’m interested in you/find you attractive and would like to know more” whether it’s a man or woman doing the approaching.
Which doesn’t mean everyone has to follow that social contract, or be interested, or want to meet people like that, but that’s just how most social situations go, and that’s just how that specific phrase works.
I’d say that having something to EXPLAIN that interest is good as a follow-up, but a bar is a place where people get hit on, and people approaching others in a bar or concert tend to be because they have some sort of interest and want to find out more.
I think the thing is, there will always be women suspicious of a guy coming up and talking to them and that’s something guys should keep in mind but not get scared by. It just means that if a woman is giving you short answers, not making eye contact, her body language is closed off etc, chances are she doesn’t want to speak to you. That’s all, just keep an eye open and make sure you’re paying attention to whether or not the woman actually wants to speak with you.
The key thing for guys wanting to approach women at bars is to remember that while it is perfectly fine to do so, not every single woman at a bar wants to be approached, and it’s not personal, and it’s not a big deal, and just leave if the woman doesn’t want you there.
I don’t like cold approaches and I think “You look interesting” is a very tired and unimaginative line that basically says “I , however, am NOT interested because this is all I could think to say”, but someone with the right personality could easily pull it off in the proper social setting.
That said, as you point out, a lot of times any approach is going to be met with disinterest because not everyone is out to meet or talk to people, and part of social calibration is also taking the hint either beforehand and not approaching because of someone’s body language or after if they don’t show any interest, become closed off, etc.
In some cases, unless approached there’s no way to know if someone is open to talking or not, and (again) while I’m not wild about using that as an opener…people’s interest is usually going to be based on what they can outwardly see, so it may be physical attraction only, but it may also be that someone is wearing a band’s t-shirt or someone’s tattoos or hair marks them as someone who could be interesting to talk to, etc, etc.
It gets easier to navigate these things as social calibration gets better, but social calibration gets better by being social.
Absolutely. And I think it’s important to practice and not only practice but learn that approaching and rejection are seriously not life and death situations. And that it’s actually okay for a woman to not want to talk with you, that it isn’t like in the movies (or the last scene in Stranger Things 2) where the women are all “Ew no!” and whispering to each other. Life isn’t a 1980s high school comedy written by dudes. It’s just people engaging with other people and having their own wants and desires and own personal issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going up to someone just because you find them attractive at an event conducive to that sort of thing. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with said attractive person not wanting to talk with you. Or wanting to talk with you. Or JUST wanting to talk with you and nothing more. People engaging with people. The human stuff.
The scene at the end of Stranger Things 2 actually does happen. I was 100% Dustin at the one high school dance I went to, except there wasn’t a Nancy to make me feel better.
That’s not to say it’s a template for socializing going forward, middle/high school and adult life are obviously worlds apart.
oh yeah, I’ve literally had that said to my face, I guess that was to reinforce to their girlfriends that they weren’t at all atracted to me, they weren’t but you have to do what you have to do to survive in the high school world
I’ve overheard a couple of friends talk about me after I left without knowing I could hear them (I had recently gotten my first girlfriend” with ” can you imagine having sex with X? eww” that was 10 years ago
and more recently I overheard a couple who wanted to have sex in the backroom where I was “sleeping” in the frontroom, apparantly the woman thought I smelled of cheese(?) which is weird because I’m allergic to cheese and thus never eat it, anyway I got out of bed and told them to do whatever and sought another place to sleep
Yes my point was that life as an adult isn’t middle school.
Also just checking, are you saying that you, like Dustin, only asked the pretty popular girls to dance and didn’t bother to ask any of your fellow nerdy rejected girls sitting on their own right next to you on the bleachers? Because again that’s an example of how ALL people had to deal with being ignored, including the girls. Which is again my point. Girls aren’t just these catty laugh at you behind your back for daring to talk to them people, most girls WEREN’T popular, and weren’t asked at the school dance, and have a great deal of empathy therefore in their adult lives and would never laugh at someone now in our mature years for that reason.
And not all popular girls and boys were the monsters that media makes them out to be. Sure we had the mean girl or bad jock types in my school, but a lot of popular people were popular because they were easy going, friendly and got along with lots of people.
Yup.
The other interesting thing is that Dustin’s situation at the end of Stranger Things 2 is mostly his fault; he’s never before made attempts to reach out to anyone outside his group of guy friends who all treat, in true 80’s movie fashion, as everyone outside their group, even a girl who is into some of the same things, as enemies at worst or idiots at best.
He shows up at the dance and of course he’s just the weird kid who never talks to anyone and has never shown any interest in them before and, shock, they look sideways at him.
It was a long time ago, but I remember mostly asking girls I knew personally. I did get discouraged awfully quickly.
Something to remember is that girls you personally know are going to be much more blunt about how they reject you because they know you.
Also, unless they’d shown some sort of interest, to be brutally honest there probably wasn’t an awful lot of point asking them, because had they been interested at some point you probably missed your chance or they would have just said yes because they’ve been waiting for you to ask.
And, yes, high school and adult life and absolute miles apart.
Well very written>A greed
I also find the intro phrase a little awkward, I’d find it more natural and less pickup-y to just start off by making a comment/question about the situation than to go up to someone explicitly say “you seem interesting, let us have a conversation.” It also makes it easier for both the person being approached and the approacher to end it naturally and in a friendly way if there’s a lack of enthusiasm on either side.
I could see the “I’m bored and interested in you” working more naturally with pretty bubbly and/or drunk people, and it’s also a bit more direct for someone who’s fairly focused on hitting on people rather than just looking to see if they meet anyone cool, or for who has trouble with people they’re interested in only reading their interest as platonic.
I agree, but do keep in mind that it also turns the ‘regular’ pick-up trope on its head. That’s why being so direct works very well, at least for the people that can pull it off.
Fair enough, but I can’t imagine not having an answer to “why” just because I find people interesting in general and there’s almost always a visual cue to some deeper trait.
“Well, since you asked, those are really cool boots. Are they Ayawear? I’ve seen those online but wasn’t sure how the quality would hold up to real use. How have they been working out for you?”
“It’s pretty unusual to see a woman pick Devil Went Down To Georgia at Punk Rock Karaoke. You’ve got a good vocal range and excellent taste in music. Are you in a band or something?”
“You Ouija Board makeup job is freakin’ phenomenal and so evocative. I have a million questions about it but I don’t want to just show up out of the blue and run you over. How long does it take you to put all of that on?”
To follow on to my previous post, this is now question number two of three and depending on the reaction sets you up for the third. At that point, you either have a conversation going or not.
I’ve heard girls say this exact thing. And while you’re not wrong, what the statement “you seem interesting” is like falls along the lines of saying “Hi how are you” when passing someone in the hallway. You don’t really want to know how they’re doing (and you’re annoyed when they stop and start to explain why they’re having a bad day), it’s just a thing people say. It’s that guy’s way of starting a convo with you. Yes, he wants to bang you. But since you’re not going to respond well to “Hey you would look good in my bed tonight”, they are choosing a lighter approach
Um. . .wow. . .ok. . .maybe that’s what it is for you.
I didn’t mean this in every situation!! Sorry if my message came off that way.
“”women of [TYPE] are interchangable and you’ll do”
Well, IMO it depends on ‘interchangeable’ for what. The first ‘screening’ is just ‘does she catch my eye’ and hopefully ‘does she look busy or can I say hi’. Most friendly-looking people are pretty interchangeable for a short chat, then the chat tells you if you actually click enough to think about making it a longer chat and maybe something more.
The guys that stop listening after two minutes because they clearly they just want a willing body are indeed vulgar, but that’s because their standards for ‘approach’ and ‘sex’ are the same.
But the guy who tries to approach six women in an hour because he finds them all rather pretty and wants to see if there’s more than just that ‘caught my eye’ factor? Well, why should I be offended that he doesn’t see off the bat that *me* a total stranger, would be a better fit? The way he’ll approach is what matters most.
I agree with the “interesting” said by a total stranger, but I think it’s a step up from ‘looking hot tonight’. It’s a way of saying ‘look, I noticed you, but you’re a person too and I’m going to listen to what you have to say.’ Assuming, of course, that the opening is followed by the guy *actually* being curious.
I can relate to the NAV story as well. Personally, I don’t prefer cold approaches because I don’t like to start a conversation with someone whom I have totally no common ground with.
Perhaps it’s also because my policy is “treat others as you want to be treated”, and I, personally, HATE being approached out of nowhere because it violently disrupts the headspace that I am in at that time and just make my brain go into ‘What do you want?!’-mode. Because generally, people who cold-approach me do so with some ulterior motive which puts up my defenses, and I would not treat others like I just want to sell them a new mobile phone subscription or ask them to take some stupid survey.
Maybe it’s because I am more introverted and the cold-approach style works better for people who are more outgoing, but it may just not be your style. I find it a lot easier to connect with people if I at least have *something* in common with them, which can even be the music you’re listening to in the bar you are in. Either style of approach is good, you just need to find which works best for you.
It’s also the reason why nerdspace events like conventions work so well: They provide a platform for people who already share a common interest, so you have a starting point to connect from.
**which can even be the music you’re listening to in the bar you are in.**
Yeah, one approach could be, “Hey, aren’t these guys great? I’ve see them X many times” or something like that. Maybe ask this during the opening band’s set if you don’t wanna miss the show you’re there for.
Of course, pay attention to their response, you don’t wanna go on and on about the band if the other person is like, “Eh, yeah, I never heard of ’em, I’m just here for a friend’s birthday party.” But hey! Conversation has been started.
But how do you know if you have something in common with a person if you or they did not at first, cold-approach the other?
That depends on the environment you are in.
Bars may be good for cold approaches, but places like conventions, or conferences which have a set of specific topics and interests, people are already there *because* they have something in common. Which gives you an easy conversation starting point.
This is one of the reasons I talk about the “luke-warm” or “room temperature” approach, which is basically just making eye contact, gauging the situation, seeing if there’s any interest…basically there’s a whole lot of methods to warm an approach up before you even open your mouth or approach rather than just nyooming up next to a lady and running a line on them.
The caveat here is that it usually requires a certain level of social intelligence to be able to signal and pick up signals before talking to someone, but if you can do it then you can know what you’re walking into and have signaled your interest and if you get shut down at that level you don’t even need to bother with an approach.
This guy gets it
LW2:
You’ve already got one thing to talk about, the band. Just don’t try to demonstrate how cool you are by talking about how they’re your friends, how much you know about their music etc. “You like the band?” is a decent conversation starter.
Also, something that could help: I read a thing somewhere that when approaching a stranger somewhere that mingling is appropriate, you get three questions. “How are you?” is the first after hi, obviously. If, after the next two, your conversation partner isn’t actively engaging back, you move on. She should be giving more than a minimum answer, bringing up topics, asking questions or showing similar signs of interest. If she’s not you just excuse yourself and go talk to someone else.
Now approaching someone is even lower impact. If they’re not feeling it or you’re not, you’ve got a framework in your head for gracefully extracting yourself.
” Just don’t try to demonstrate how cool you are by talking about how they’re your friends”.
Yeah, that would just make you look like you’re a groupie trying to hitch up on the band’s glamour.
What I found to be a very good strategy is that, if the band stays in the bar to catch a few drinks afterwards (which will generally happen with small bands playing for fun), there will usually be some people who want to stay and have the obligatory after-gig-chat.
Now this really does NOT work if the band members are upcoming rock stars, but in that case, they’re generally more professional and maybe sell a few autographs and then clean up to go home.
My relationship with this band is a little weird. I was infatuated with one of the core members for a couple of years; as a result, I became something of a regular fixture at a lot of their local gigs for quite a while and got to know the two core members of the band pretty well. Although she’s happily engaged now, I must give off some kind of weird energy, because people are constantly asking me “Is that your girlfriend/wife?” when I watch the band play. One older gentleman even pressed it further, going on to then ask if I was related to someone in the band.
I’ve only been following the band for just shy of four years and people are pegging me as part of their family.
And I guess that’s part of why I make a point of NOT using the band as a social lubricant. They’re my friends, people I know and care about…not a talking point to bring up with strangers I happen to find attractive.
That said, when the subject is brought up to me, I don’t mind talking about them. I know quite a bit about the band, their proclivities and music that lets me go on, not at length exactly, but more than most people know about a small, local band I think.
The real point here is that this is a bar scene, not a musical venue. Although the band are incredible musicians, most of the people who come in are not there for the music; they’re there explicitly to drink and socialize. On the other hand I am there for the music; socialization is kind of a side-effect. That difference tends to be a wall between me and the women that catch my eye there.
And even when the woman(women) in question are paying attention to the music, I’m usually doing the same. That doesn’t really leave much opportunity to make a connection, especially when 9 times out of 10, the women who turn my head leave after a song they enjoyed hearing was over, often in the middle of a song I’m still enjoying listening to.
|Are you into, say, large girls, because you like them big or because you think they’re going to be |“grateful” and let you get away with more?
*cough cough* 90% of the “chubby chaser” community urgh.
to the point where when a guy does approach me because he likes fatter women, I have to like, perform a full gauging process of figuring out if he’s into me or just the fact that he feels like it’s acceptable to say things like “well fat women just try harder at giving head because they know nobody wants to date them, that’s why they’re so good at it.”
Nothing makes me angrier than the amount of damage social conditioning has done to turn fat women/goth women/bisexual women into some sort of bizarre sex nymphette monolith in the minds of dudes.
LW1, keep on keeping on, there’s a whole spectrum of people out there to date, and all of them beautiful in unique ways.
To LW2 – I’m similar to you in that when I go to a club or bar, I’m actually there to enjoy the company I’m with or listen to the music. However I’m also a social person and after a few drinks I’m really not afraid to mention anything to anybody, which sometimes results in a conversation. it sounds to me like you aren’t opposed to making a comment here or there. You never know where that comment will take you, and I think that’s the first step. Also a tip… towards the end of the night, girls are a bit more intoxicated and often times will come up to you(!) to talk. Take advantage of their brazenness. Just look cool enough to be approachable the whole time.
*puts on shades*
“Take advantage of their brazenness. ”
Obviously, in terms of ‘having a chat’ or ‘giving/getting a number’ not ‘taking that super drunk chick home’. It should go without saying.
But, on the other hand, if a tipsy girl talks to you, don’t lock yourself in a ‘she’d never do that sober’ mindset and push her away. Talk is fine.
Right. We are discussing how to spark a conversation with an attractive stranger, so thats what I meant by taking advantage of a situation lol
My personal inclination is that the only reason to “take a drunk chick home” is to offer her a safe place to sleep it off if nobody else will take responsibility for her well-being. Fortunately, I’ve never actually seen that happen. (that may be a result of how infrequently I’m in a bar, though)
I do question the wisdom of not recognizing that, while alcohol can’t make people “do things they don’t want to do”, a lack of inhibitions does not signal genuine interest. I don’t trust a single thing inebriated people say or do; there’s a reason that those inhibitions exist and unless they say the exact same thing sober as they spout out drunk (in content, if not necessarily in wording), I’m not going to be inclined to buy what they’re selling.
Generally speaking, I don’t get along with inebriated people. Even the nicest of them tends to be more forward, tactile and demanding than I’m comfortable with.
The last time I was out at the bar watching my friends play, a drunken couple came over and began espousing how much they loved the band. This was nice enough, but their sort of “You can’t ignore me, I’m right here breathing alcohol into your face” manner of engaging me made me intensely uncomfortable; I wanted nothing more than to disappear into the woodwork.
As a note, this bar closes at 2AM; my friends play until 1 and I almost always stay to help them pack up to go home, which often involves them engaging the few hold outs that waited around to talk to them after they were done playing. So, I see the people that are still there at closing time and there’s rarely anybody still there by that time of the night. Bear in mind, this is a regular Thursday night gig; most people aren’t going to stay out until the set is over on a day where they’re likely still have to go to work the next morning..
First. Thanks for responding directly! Always like to know if my message is seen and processed. Second, I don’t know how to assist ya haha. However you’re actively asking and analyzing. I think that’s the critical first step. You’ll be a pro at this in no time
LW1: As a woman of color, I can say this happens very often. You are not doing us any favors. We are not a charitable cause. There is no tax break for speaking to us or dating us. We don’t want to be your education on how you value people. If you feel you deserve more or better there is nothing wrong with that, and those feelings are not likely to change. But please don’t waste her time. Leave her so she can find someone she deserves.
Love it
Yeah, I was really surprised more people weren’t squicked out by LW1. Really, he defines “kind of woman” by her skin color and not her personality and lifestyle? WTF??
And I know pretty much all guys look at porn and I’m fine with that. But I wonder if its easy accessibility in the Internet age really messed with people’s heads and expectations as they were growing up and learning about sex, in a way that occasionally sneaking an older brother’s Playboy just wouldn’t. It’s like the ability to be instantly drunk whenever you want versus occasionally sneaking a beer.
That makes sense, I had never thought of it like that before. I know I’ve heard that viewing something more often and in a glorified and diversified light makes people desire it more, so I think that backs your idea up. This is why certain body types used to be considered attractive by the mainstream but aren’t anymore. I’ve heard women say they found asian men extremely attractive after getting into Kpop music.
What I wanted to convey to the LW is that if he has these opinions, they probably aren’t going to change and making himself a martyr to this woman is not only a waste of her time, but also completely illogical. There are people out there that would love to be with someone that looks like her, and for him to think he is sacrificing himself for her is a gross devaluation of her and overvaluation of himself. By trying to be a “good” person, or “nice”, he is just wasting time that she could be using to find someone that would like her completely for who she is, and find her very attractive without any sort of embarrassment. That is what he should really be concerned about. The nicest thing you can do for someone that you don’t see a future with (if having a future together is a goal for either of you), regardless of what your hang ups are, is to break up with them. Trust me, you are not the only great thing that will happen to them.
“how’s a fat girl like a moped”
…What the hell does that even mean? I literally don’t understand how this is some kind of a joke.
Anyway, with regards to LW2, it’s also worth noting that as much as it’s great you have a place where you’re more comfortable than most that allows for cold approaches etc., it’s not the be all end all. There will be other places, other people and other opportunities. Don’t feel like now that you have this comfy spot, this is where you *will* or *won’t* meet someone. I only say this because I got trapped in a similar mindset. It’s just not true and feels very limiting.
Might want to do as I say rather than as I do, because I’m pretty much in the same boat – unless there’s an actual reason to talk to others outside of necessity, I don’t lol.
“Fun to ride but you wouldn’t want your friends to see.”
Yeah, fucking hilarious.
Oh, cripes that’s terrible. More reminders of how people are terrible and also why, as a fat ladt, I don’t miss being on the dating scene.
Oh, urgh, fuck that noise. Happy I didn’t get that, in a weird way.
to lw2…on behalf of women hit on incessantly at bars by guys , believe me “you look interesting to talk to” -type opener really pisses women off who are used to being hit on by visually-obsessed guys. You think we are stupid? We “look” interesting?! Give us a break, please. Comment on the band, the crowd anything. Of course we know why you are approaching us, so at least “be” interesting yourself. We know what we have to offer you drooling guys, who are staring at our breasts like stunned teenagers – what do you have to offer *us*?
Yeah, I suppose that’s why I ended up not acting on my interest (or at least part of it). I didn’t feel that I would have brought anything worthwhile to a conversation with these women I literally knew nothing about.
I guess in a way, my inaction saved us both from an awkward interaction that likely would have gone no where.
No not at all. But just get out of your self-consciousness and make an interesting comment. Everyone who is in a bar knows the territory. I have made good friends and even the odd boyfriend through guys I met at concerts/bars. Several real geeky types who I liked because they are clever, quiky, direct, sarcastic..interesting in their view of the world. My life is richer through knowing them. All I am saying is attractive women know why a random guy is approaching her, she’s experienced it a lot, so a guy pretending it is for another reason is insulting her intelligence. It’s fine, it’s human, no big deal. But “give” something to her, a funny comment, a wise/sarcastic observation. I ended up going up with super introvert geek after he came up and made a joke about being the 50th guy to approach me that evening and being a nerd he was just going to stand guard , allow me a break. I thought he was cool. We are still good friends today, he’s a great guy. Just remember we are human beings, not just trophies to try winning or targets to hit each night…that is insulting. Be different, cool, quirky, fun…or whatever.We expect to be approached, just remember to be cool and relaxed about it – the lustful desperate hunter look is creepy and annoying as hell. yy hint here: You are obviously there for the music so *talk* about the music…make a refreshing change!
Here’s something I’ve had work quite well for me when I was looking for dates: I’d strike up a conversation with someone I was interested in, but I’d avoid complimenting her on her appearance/physical characteristics. Even if it maybe looks just a touch corny, I think it does a much better job of conveying to her that you’re interested in more than her looks and that you’re capable of having conversations with more substance.
“Here’s something I’ve had work quite well for me when I was looking for dates: I’d strike up a conversation with someone I was interested in, but I’d avoid complimenting her on her appearance/physical characteristics.”
That’s something I learned a long time ago, honestly. I suppose I stopped complimenting women’s default physical appearance (no matter how impressed I am by them) probably 10 to 15 years ago. Unfortunately, that’s when I determined I didn’t have much else to talk to those women about most of the time. By and large, women I find physically attractive don’t run in the same geeky circles I of interest I do…and those that I have met that were are usually already happily involved in a relationship, gay, both or (in particular in recent years) too young to really make for viable attraction.
Or, yanno, just not interested in me.
There’s nothing wrong with striking up a conversation – just ‘you look interesting!’ is not going to cut it. (Sorry, DNL, but no.) Talk about the band or something else you could actually have a conversation about, and follow the Two Question Rule.
I don’t really have the social capacity to “strike up a conversation”; I’m usually more adept at engaging in a conversation that’s already happening…which admittedly comes off as rude sometimes, depending on the social context. I kind of need that running start to be able to recognize whether I can contribute to the conversation or not.
Unfortunately, this kind of apprach does necessitate proximity to be able to make that leap and, as I’ve noted before, I tend to sit alone and away from the crowd when enjoying my friends’ performance.
(I had to look up what the “Two Question Rule” refers to; while I won’t argue that isn’t good advice, I’d be hard pressed to keep that in mind in the moment.)
I too found it difficult. And then I practiced. I observed others who were good at it, I literally copied their sentences and used their jokes. I watched, I practiced, I learned. Most people do that. Don’t define yourself as not having the capacity and therefore decide you can never improve. Put the work in. Like most of us have to.
Or don’t.
But don’t look for a magic wand.
“Most people work on becoming more sociable, it isn’t some innate thing.”
Most people work on becoming sociablel during adolescence, puberty and early adulthood. It’s part and parcel of standard social development…of youth, a time of life when other priorities aren’t superseding opportunities for social “practice” and our minds are naturally more pliable.
What I’m saying is that, as a man in my 40’s, I’ve already got a lifetime lacking social interaction, at first because it didn’t interest me all that much (I was exceedingly bookish in my youth), then because I felt I didn’t have to (first because the Army covered that for me, second because I was married for 10 years). The prospect of trying to start over from scratch, with a fraction of the time and resources available, is pretty daunting.
I’m not looking for a magic wand or a short cut. Learning all the stuff my social utility belt is missing and gauging the amount of time, effort and endless failure that I’d have to endure to make up the time that I’ve lost, it’s just hard to feel anything but manifestly overwhelmed.
My opportunities for social interaction (outside of work) are so few and typically limited in scope, it doesn’t really inspire confidence that I’d get enough “practice” to make a significant difference.
I get that but . . . I mean it sucks but what else are you going to do? Do you just want to skip that step because it’s later in life and you’re scared to try? Like honestly, what do you think you can do instead of practicing and working on your social interaction? You gave me a long list, a very long list, of excuses, but . . . sometimes things are just unfair. Sometimes people start later in life. Sometimes certain things are harder for certain people. Your list is a very pretty list but I’ll be honest, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to say. Like do you want me to say: “Oh! You’re right. Okay I was wrong, don’t try. You shouldn’t have to practice. You’ll just accidentally stumble upon a relationship totally spontaneously through no effort and all will be well”? I feel like that would be unkind of me, because quite frankly depending on luck is a dangerous and often rather ineffective solution to any problem.
I leave you with this quote I saw the other day: “Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway.”
You’re right.
Why thank you 🙂 .
And to show I’m not heartless, what you need to fully understand was that while yes maybe I worked and practiced at a younger age than you are now, I was still a lot older than many when I realised no one could solve this but me. I do actually have a great deal of empathy and understanding how hard, and even more than that, how scary doing this kind of work is. But ultimately if this is something we want, then we have to face those fears. And I’ll tell you I am a much stronger person for having gone through what I did. It not only taught me so much about what I was truly capable of, and has made me quite fearless (though still shy) in the face of strangers, but has given me confidence to also broach other challenges knowing I have the capacity to do so. There’s so much good that comes out of taking risks and pushing oneself. In a much larger scheme of things than merely the goal itself.
I appreciate your input and sympathy…but the problem as it stands now is I don’t know how to do the work. And, more to the point, I don’t know how to get myself to do the work. As I mentioned in my letter, I saw women I found attractive at the bar that night and my thought process boiled down to this: “Well, she’s pretty.”
~sigh~
And that was it. An acknowledgement that I found these women (there were about three of them that caught my eye that night) attractive, a sigh that basically amounted to “Oh well” and I moved on. I might have made eye contact with a one or two of them, but in dim light of the bar, it was hard to tell and amounted to nothing in any case.
The important bit is that, while I recognized that I found these women attractive, there was no impetus to go and try to meet them. No inspiration to get up off my ass and go talk to them just because they were physically appealing…because ultimately, that doesn’t feel organic. It feels fake. So…until I find a way to get past the idea that lack of motivation, I’m sort of stuck.
And the clock is ticking.
I mean, you could just do it. Regardless of how you’re feeling.
I’m a writer. And one of the biggest myths when it comes to writing is that one has to be inspired to do it. But as pretty much every author will tell you, that ain’t fact. What we do is we sit down and we force ourselves to write. Regardless of inspiration or really even any good ideas. We know that we have to simply get words on a page. And I can tell you especially after finishing up my latest work, finding the motivation was next to impossible. Like a kid in bed before a school day, I just didn’t wanna. But I had a deadline. I had a contract. And I had to basically force myself against everything I was feeling to write. To drag myself to the computer. Sometimes I literally did it while crying from frustration and the lack of wanting to do it. I can tell you there was literally nothing in me motivating me to do it aside from the fact that I quite simply had to do it. It was terrible, it was painful. But I did it. And the book is done. And I am very very happy about that.
My point is again a kind of a huge “so what”? (in the kindest way possible) So what that you aren’t motivated. That you saw someone and that you had no impetus to go over. You know that you need to, you know it’s an important step for you. So forget how you’re feeling and just do it anyway. Tell yourself that no matter what you need to approach regardless of how you are feeling in the moment. Tell yourself that you have no choice. Doesn’t matter how you’re feeling, doesn’t matter that you aren’t motivated, that you would rather stay safe and warm and cozy under the metaphorical covers, you will regardless on lack of motivation go over.
I had a long response put down for this, but the answer boils down to this: I am also a writer and I don’t write the same way you do. I can’t force myself to write; nothing ever comes out when I try to force it. Likewise, I can’t force myself to socialize in the way you’re suggesting. I can’t imagine anyone will to put up with somebody who clearly doesn’t want to be engaging them and is for some inexplicable reason is trying to anyway. And why would I force myself to go talk to somebody if I didn’t want to? I would think the whole point is wanting too. Like my old music teacher used to say “You gotta wanna”.
Contrary to Doc’s perspective, I don’t feel that “I think she’s pretty” is valid justification to talk force myself to talk to somebody. That’s not objective; that’s my personal opinion, because it leads to the obvious response of “So what?” So, I think she’s attractive. So, what does that matter to her? Not a fuckin’ thing. And that’s how I feel about socialization in general. What does my need to practice my social skills matter to a group of people out for their fun time at the bar? Not a fuckin’ thing. So why should I bother them with it?
Sorry; intended to make that shorter and instead went on a ramble. Bottom line: for me, trying to force an issue only ever makes things worse rather than better.
Okay well I mean you can’t do anything you don’t want to do obviously. And I’m very impressed, I have to say, that you only ever write when inspired. I have no idea how you manage to hit deadlines that way, but maybe it’s just you’re inspired all the time? Regardless if that works for your writing career it works. But it clearly isn’t working for your social life.
And your music teacher is right. You gotta wanna. But I don’t think you actually want to put in the work when it comes to relationships and socialising. I think you come up with a lot of excellent excuses and really really want something to just happen so you don’t have to worry about it. And who knows, you might be lucky enough that it does. But at this point i can’t say anything else because I have nothing more to say. You have to really want to. And you don’t really want to. Not yet. Maybe when you do you can come back and read my comments or others here (and of course the articles) and something will finally spark something in you for change. Regardless I wish you much luck! (and also with the writing 🙂 )
Thanks. I appreciate your input.
I’ll note here that while I am a writer, I am not an author. I don’t make my living writing; I just enjoy a good story and sometimes I manage to write one down.
My pleasure!
And ah, okay that does make a difference. And I understand better. But maybe that’s a way to look at it. For you writing is a hobby, and the ultimate goal is pleasure. In the end it doesn’t matter if you don’t write today or not. For me, while there is sometimes pleasure in writing, it’s a job. If I don’t write, I don’t get paid (worse, since I have contracts I have to fulfill I could get sued). I don’t get paid, I don’t eat. So I have to write regardless of how I’m feeling.
Maybe you need to look at social interaction in a similar way. Right now it seems like you see it as something that isn’t that big a deal despite it holding you back, but not a necessity in life like shelter or food. But if getting a relationship is something that you absolutely want and isn’t just a nice thing that would be nice but no worries if it doesn’t happen, then maybe you need to start looking at honing social skills as more of a “have to” and less of a “want”. Are there any other things you have to do even if you don’t want to? Anything you do that isn’t something particularly enjoyable but you do them anyway because you essentially have no choice? How do you motivate yourself that way? Maybe you can use the same technique to motivate yourself for this.
“Anything you do that isn’t something particularly enjoyable but you do them anyway because you essentially have no choice? How do you motivate yourself that way? ”
I lower my head and charge into it full of fury, because under those circumstances only the indignant rage of being forced doing something I explicitly don’t want gets me past the hump to actually performing. That’s how I get myself off to work when I don’t want to get out of bed, it’s how I do chores around my house when I don’t want to get off the couch, sometimes it’s even how I go shopping when I really don’t want to leave the house.
I absolutely HATE being coerced. It doesn’t matter if it’s by another person or even by myself.
Maybe I’m being presumptuous, but I don’t think that kind of energy is conducive to social interactions. “TALK TO ME! I’M FULL OF FURY AND READY TO SOCIALIZE!”
…yeah. As Doc would say, “that’s not a good look”.
But in your fury do you rage at others? Like when you’re out shopping for groceries do you yell at people in your way and get snippy with the cashier? I mean, the whole point is the rage gets you to do the thing, but once you’re doing the thing the rage isn’t necessary. Maybe you can rage your way across a room when you see someone you like, but not into a conversation? By the time you get there you’ll be forced to talk anyway, so maybe you can see it less as “Rage my way to talk” but more like “rage my way to introduce myself” and then once talking chillax?
~ponders~ I’ll take that approach under advisement. I have work to do with my therapist regarding my temper before I could even consider attempting such a maneuver; the last thing I need to do is successfully manage to hurl myself into an approach and end up in jail for terrifying the subject of my attention.
Definitely sounds like a good thing to discuss with your therapist. Please do keep it in mind, but I do think they’ll know more than some stranger on the internet who’s never met you 🙂 .
Similar boat to LW2, only I think I’m in somewhat better shape since for my job I have to approach random people from time to time. Doing that gives me some anxiety because I got a gigantic news camera on my shoulder and a mic in my hand, when you got those… almost nobody wants to talk lol. However, when I’m not in work mode and I need to ask someone something or approach someone for whatever reason, I can. But with someone I’m attracted to, ehh, that kinda goes out the window a bit.
Lemme explain, I can talk to women themselves just fine, even the women who I find attractive I can talk to normally like any other person. It’s easy, you just talk and be cool (as in be calm and friendly, being playful is fine but don’t be a jerk) with them, now where I get tripped up and it terrifies me is the expression of said attraction.
I will fully admit that I’m terrified of rejection, I hate the anticipation of it and the aftermath of when it happens. Especially with someone who I really fancied because in the past, that person either stopped talking to me or I stopped talking to them so it wouldn’t be awkward. It goes both ways and things never were quite the same after I asked them out. OTG here in the comments suggested I should probably still keep in contact with them even if it didn’t pan out. That’s what I’m having trouble with the most, is being able to ask for dates because I’m scared of what she’ll say/her reaction and I’m scared of coming off as creepy too.
Gaaaaaah.
I absolutely loathe this notion of non-white women being a consolation prize for guys who couldn’t get with a gorgeous blonde. For Pete’s sake, only 11% of the human race is Caucasian! (And if you factor in the number of people within that who have great figures, the percentage becomes miniscule) Any man who needs “social reconditioning” in order to appreciate 90% of the female population should just take himself out of the dating pool and quit wasting everyone’s time. Because white women don’t want their relationships to be contingent on their whiteness, either.
Eh, LW #1 isn’t talking about social reconditioning. He’s realizing he’s got some toxic shit bubbling up, owned it, and wants to get it out of his life so it doesn’t poison his relationship with his GF.
All the same, if he needs help in learning how to value his girlfriend because she isn’t a blonde cheerleader….. he should honestly just let her go find someone else who isn’t struggling to see her as less-than, you know?